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ConsciousFungi
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Registered: 10/15/15
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Trich on everything!!!!
#22480710 - 11/05/15 11:21 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I am having a huge trich problem and I can't figure out why. Im trying to switch to a mini mono tub and its giving me the biggest headache.
I have made 10 wbs jars, pc'd for 90 minutes at 15lbs, ship, and tyvec covered. Each of them became contaminated with trich within two days. These were two separate batches, and used different spore syringes. The trich originates from both the top and bottom of the jars.
My first grow used 8 brf cakes which turned out perfectly through the first flush. However after 3 days into their second flush they have now been contaminated with trich.
I am not sure what I am doing wrong! I sterilize the needle before injection and wipe down the ship with 70% alcohol.
Does anyone have any ideas?
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pablokabute
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Registered: 11/22/11
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Loc: rural ghetto
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Did you actually flame sterilize the needle before injecting?
Never ever flame sterilize then wipe the needle with alcohol. It SHOULD be the other way around...
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Fermented Mushrooms!! --- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1 'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”' "I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST." --Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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ConsciousFungi
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I wiped down the injection port, and then flame sterilized. I also forgot to add that the syringes came from a trusted sponsor.
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PsilocyBen17
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how long did you soak your grains for? Is your WBS treated with fungicide? What is your SAB technique like?
A problem I had when I used a SAB was that one time they were out of lysol at the store so I bought some no name brand of disinfectant. After reading it closeley I realized it was "eco friendly" and didnt kill trich worth a damn. Be sure to wipe down with lysol and rubbing alcohol of 80%.
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ConsciousFungi
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I soaked for 24hrs, brought the wbs to a light simmer and strained and dried until no spots on tp for 15 seconds. The wbs is penningtons classic.
Now, I dont use a SAB. I shut all vents off in my shower after I take a shower and then wait until the humidity is gone. Sort of like a still air bathroom. At first I thought that may be my problem, but all 10/10 jars?!
I am building a SAB now, but I feel like that can't be the cause as all of the brf jars were fine in the bathroom. WBS could be totally different though.
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
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Well I too inoculate in open air even though its one of the worst ways to do it. ( my SAB sucks) but if everything is getting infected its probably something else unless your sterile technique is that bad. Are both spores from the same vendor purchased at the same time? Maybe the print was dirty. If I had a problem like yours I would definitely turn to agar to zone in on the problem. I think that should be your next step. If the agar has spotless growth you know its not the syringes.
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ConsciousFungi
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The spores are from the same vendor at the same time, but they were different strains. However, two other syringes worked just fine with brf. I am completely clueless as to what could be the issue.
Since I only have trouble with wbs and not brf, I am assuming it has something to do with the grain prep. However, I followed Franks wbs prep. My next thought would be that the presto pc isnt reaching 15lbs as it should normally.
If I cant get grain to work I could use cakes to spawn a mini mono, but general consensus claims far greater yields with grains.
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PsilocyBen17
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CUMMON GUYS!!! 
you inoculate in open air?! I'm surprised you've had any success! No wonder you have trich on everything. Build a SAB, they cost like $8
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PsilocyBen17
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Sorry for being a grump but how many times has it been said on here that the best place to start is to watch RR's "t videos! They are on youtube.
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DrCrumbs
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Did you hold onto some trich in the beginning and now your room is full of spores?
Are you knocking up in the same room you fruit in?
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ConsciousFungi
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Re: Trich on everything!!!! [Re: DrCrumbs]
#22482672 - 11/05/15 07:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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All trich contaminated jars were tossed out immediately, opened only outside. I saved the jars though by saturating them with lysol outside and then washing them in boiling water, and then putting them through the dish washer.
I do fruit and inoculate in the same room. I now have a SAB though, so Ill see if that fixes my issues. Im worried that when I disposed of the contaminated jars, spores got onto my clothes and were subsequently carried in house. I hope thats not the case though, or at least I hope the SAB prevents any trouble from that.
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ConsciousFungi
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I'll also add that I wont know for sure if the lack of a SAB was the issue for a week or so, as I've used all of my syringes. I did use the SAB to try transferring pieces of a 50% colonized brf cake to a couple wbs jars. Im not too hopeful about that working, but I figured it was worth a try.
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
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Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Quote:
PsilocyBen17 said: CUMMON GUYS!!! 
you inoculate in open air?! I'm surprised you've had any success! No wonder you have trich on everything. Build a SAB, they cost like $8

I already responded to this on another thread but I guess I can do so again here.
Contaminated ones ( only 3 jars of those are from my latest grow and 1 of them only has a small amount of metabolites which might or might not be a problem later on)

Jars that are doing A-okay

Open air inoculations are successful if you are carefull enough. Note that when I say open air inoculation I do not mean I open the jar lid and inoculate. I carefully peel back the tyvek put my syringe in real fast and pull tyvek over the syring while simultaneously squirt 2ml's of LC. As I said this still means you loose some jars to contamination but im happy with a loss of 2-3 out of 26.hell with 26 jars of grain ill have enough shrooms to last for months between me and my friends. Of course having a bigger SAB means I could do everything in it but so far getting a big enough tote with a straight lid has been next to impossible. We work with what we have. This is what almost all the lids look like where I live
As you can see it is impossible to do any kind of work on those lids since they drop a few cm's every inch.
This is my SAB's lid

As you can see here even my SAB has a few millimetres drop every 2 inches or so but at least its good enough for agar.
Not everyone has it as easy as if we lived in the states where all we had to do was walk to walmart and find anything we needed for half the price ( my 50 litre SAB cost me 25 euros). I say you folks in the US of A have it easy when it comes to equipment (I will happily smuggle myself there if you can find me a job :p). You see we all gotta work with what we have in life. I have no doubt that in the future I will be able to find an appropriate SAB (hell I might even finally find a hepa at a relatively low cost) but in the meantime I will not sit idly by and not grow just because I might lose a jar or 2.
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PsilocyBen17
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I already responded to this on another thread but I guess I can do so again here.
Contaminated ones ( only 3 jars of those are from my latest grow and 1 of them only has a small amount of metabolites which might or might not be a problem later on)

Jars that are doing A-okay

Open air inoculations are successful if you are carefull enough
No, you are wrong, and you're ignorance is detrimental to noobs who might be reading it. For the lazy noob open air inoculations will work on BRF cakes, but this is only because BRF cakes have a dry layer of verm inside the jar that serves as a filter. It is ridiculous to say that 26 jars will fully colonize after being inoculated in open air. This would never happen, one should expect a >90% contam rate when inoculating in open air.
The clear tote you have pictured will work fine for a SAB. The lid is not ideal but it will work. Many people have built functioning SAB's from cardboard boxes, they are hard to work in because they are not transparent, but they work.
Edited by PsilocyBen17 (11/06/15 01:06 AM)
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Quote:
PsilocyBen17 said:
I already responded to this on another thread but I guess I can do so again here.
Contaminated ones ( only 3 jars of those are from my latest grow and 1 of them only has a small amount of metabolites which might or might not be a problem later on)

Jars that are doing A-okay

Open air inoculations are successful if you are carefull enough
No, you are wrong, and you're ignorance is detrimental to noobs who might be reading it. For the lazy noob open air inoculations will work on BRF cakes, but this is only because BRF cakes have a dry layer of verm inside the jar that serves as a filter. It is ridiculous to say that 26 jars will fully colonize after being inoculated in open air. This would never happen, one should expect a >90% contam rate when inoculating in open air.
The clear tote you have pictured will work fine for a SAB. The lid is not ideal but it will work. Many people have built functioning SAB's from cardboard boxes, they are hard to work in because they are not transparent, but they work.
Do you actually have experience with open air inoculations or are you just saying what you read? I have and this is the result
this mini tub took 4 quarts of spawn to make. If i really lost 90% of my jars as you say, I would initially have made 40 quart jars of grain. I dont even have that many jars both pints and quarts combined. Also if I really had that ratio I wouldn't even dare try again before having a better SAB. But as I said 3 out of 26 is good enough to work with until I do find a better tote.
So you are saying that I faked 23 empty jars into looking like inoculated jars? Please tell me so and I will make a grow log just for you to believe.
Also yea I guess you are right the tote lid is totally fine... if I wanted a 45degree agar plate. I can see myself knocking every plate and bottle in sight like this. Hell its not that hard even by pouring the agar I would knock the plate down at that inclination.
 
Unless of course you meant I should work with the lid facing up then that's even better because I can test my memory skills and my hand coordination by trying to make agar while seeing this
I find it funny that you speak as If I said "hey dude forget the SAB and do everything in open in. Its the best"
Instead I said this
Quote:
Supalemonhaze said: Well I too inoculate in open air even though its one of the worst ways to do it. ( my SAB sucks) but if everything is getting infected its probably something else unless your sterile technique is that bad.
And yet you say I am ignorant and somehow advocating the method of open air inoculation. I merely said I do the same without contaminating everything so either his sterile technique is in adequate or something else entirely is introducing mold spores to his jars.
Edit: also I seen the designs of cardboard SABs. Cardboard is straight as far as my 'ignorant' mind remembers
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pablokabute
Hari ng Amag



Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 5,163
Loc: rural ghetto
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My SAB I cut out two holes at the top then siliconed 2 petri plates in place...
Two more holes at the front. Voila!
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Fermented Mushrooms!! --- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1 'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”' "I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST." --Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Quote:
ConsciousFungi said: The trich originates from both the top and bottom of the jars.
I just noticed this. If you did not shake the jar after inoculation then for sure it was not from the open air inoculation. Can you see if the trich originates from the path the spore solution took?
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ConsciousFungi
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Quote:
Supalemonhaze said:
Quote:
ConsciousFungi said: The trich originates from both the top and bottom of the jars.
I just noticed this. If you did not shake the jar after inoculation then for sure it was not from the open air inoculation. Can you see if the trich originates from the path the spore solution took?
I lightly shook the jar to resettle the wbs. The trich was much more colonized at the bottom, but did seem to originate from a single seed at the top/mid-top each time.
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PsilocyBen17
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Quote:
Supalemonhaze said:
Edit: also I seen the designs of cardboard SABs. Cardboard is straight as far as my 'ignorant' mind remembers
Sorry for knocking you man, I just don't think its wise to be championing open air inoculations when SAB are so easy to make. The reason people post on the shroomery is so that noobs can have fun on their first grow instead of experiencing catastrophe. Even if by some miracle you perform open air innoculations successfully, it is not the norm, and you should expect serious contams using that technique.
Not sure what you mean about cardboard being straight?
Keep us posted on how your 26 jars do.
Edited by PsilocyBen17 (11/06/15 11:04 AM)
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PsilocyBen17
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PS: I'm confused. Why are you claiming you've been successful with open air inoculation if your 26 jars are still colonizing?
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
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Quote:
PsilocyBen17 said:
Quote:
Supalemonhaze said:
Edit: also I seen the designs of cardboard SABs. Cardboard is straight as far as my 'ignorant' mind remembers
Sorry for knocking you man, I just don't think its wise to be championing open air inoculations when SAB are so easy to make. The reason people post on the shroomery is so that noobs can have fun on their first grow instead of experiencing catastrophe. Even if by some miracle you perform open air innoculations successfully, it is not the norm, and you should expect serious contams using that technique.
Not sure what you mean about cardboard being straight?
Keep us posted on how your 26 jars do.
Quote:
PsilocyBen17 said: PS: I'm confused. Why are you claiming you've been successful with open air inoculation if your 26 jars are still colonizing?
It's quite alright I know its the worst way to do it ( as I pointed out at the very start to op) but for some equipment is not as easy to get as one might think. Its not a miracle at all its just proper technique. By no means I am a professional, one look at the amount of contams I get on agar ( inside SAB) and you'll know. I just have more experience with the grains. When you really think about it its a hole a few mm's wide ( barely enough for syringe) which is immediately blocked when I inoculate and covered right after.
Also I said that they were "successful" because its been over a week since I inoculated so its pretty much safe to say any mold spores which could have entered would have germinated already like the ones I tried to ID in the other thread.
Good day/night to you. ( wont be for me just starting night shift at work )
Quote:
ConsciousFungi said:
Quote:
Supalemonhaze said:
Quote:
ConsciousFungi said: The trich originates from both the top and bottom of the jars.
I just noticed this. If you did not shake the jar after inoculation then for sure it was not from the open air inoculation. Can you see if the trich originates from the path the spore solution took?
I lightly shook the jar to resettle the wbs. The trich was much more colonized at the bottom, but did seem to originate from a single seed at the top/mid-top each time.
Im afraid there is no knowning where it originated from then. When using a MS syringe people usually reccomend not to shake the jars so they will be closer together and colonise faster. Remember the faster the mycelium colonises the less chance of contams you have ( I never did MS). If I had this much trouble with my inoculations I would first get a good SAB to work in ( might wanna try the big bag tek there is floating around the forums somewhere) and second switch to agar to see where the problem is coming from. Goodluck to you mate.
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PsilocyBen17
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Quote:
Supalemonhaze said:
Also I said that they were "successful" because its been over a week since I inoculated so its pretty much safe to say any mold spores which could have entered would have germinated already like the ones I tried to ID in the other thread.
.
This isn't true. Mold can show up at any time. Many jars contam at 90% colonization.
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Supalemonhaze
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Guess we'll wait and see wont we yes I did have a couple of jars which got infected late in colonisation ( the quart jar in my thread is one) but its safe to say that ill have most of my remaining 23 jars. Late contam germination only happened twice so far so im not really worried
Edited by Supalemonhaze (11/06/15 11:42 PM)
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ConsciousFungi
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So I think 2/4 syringes were actually contaminated. That seems like a very high ratio for a trusted sponsor, but I inoculated 4 jars by transferring pieces of a brf cake and used the 1cc I had left to inoculate one other jar. The 4 jars with brf cake have not contaminated, despite actually opening the lids on them. The other jar using the syringe has a very bad trich infection already.
Thank you all for helping me! I doubt the brf transfer would have been successful without my new SAB.
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PsilocyBen17
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When you performed the BRF transfer did the jar you were transferring to have a dry verm layer? If so this is your problem.
BRF doesnt work well for G2G transfers, you'd have better success using grain in your SAB.
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
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He said only syringe ones got contamed. If you remove verm layer it shouldn't really contam IMO.
Edit: the only setback with using brf for g2g style is that you have to break it up. Its a sub just like grains. Both do the same thing with the same amount of risk.
Edited by Supalemonhaze (11/09/15 04:15 PM)
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PsilocyBen17
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This thread is starting to annoy me. People shouldn't blame their setup when it is their technique and ideas that are at fault.
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
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Lol from your own words you said brf is less suseptabile for contams than grains however you inoculate. And you say that the syringe is ok?
Syringes are known to carry contams just ask anyone.
If thread is starting to annoy you it's because it's showing you how flawed your thinking is.
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PsilocyBen17
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brf is less susceptible to contams and more "noob friendly" than grains because of the dry verm layer but of course its going to contam during an open air transfer (especially without the verm layer).
I've never seen anyone on this site suggest BRF for a G2G transfer using BRF (even inside a SAB). The reason people use grain is for the multiple inoculation points (colonized grain kernels). For this reason a BRF cake is a poor candidate for G2G's.
sponsors are known for their cleanliness. 4/4 dirty syringes seems unlikely to me. If the vendor was a sponsor I would hesitate to blame them for the contam and lean towards the OPs technique...
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Shroomspective
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Quote:
PsilocyBen17 said: brf is less susceptible to contams and more "noob friendly" than grains because of the dry verm layer but of course its going to contam during an open air transfer (especially without the verm layer).
I've never seen anyone on this site suggest BRF for a G2G transfer using BRF (even inside a SAB). The reason people use grain is for the multiple inoculation points (colonized grain kernels). For this reason a BRF cake is a poor candidate for G2G's.
sponsors are known for their cleanliness. 4/4 dirty syringes seems unlikely to me. If the vendor was a sponsor I would hesitate to blame them for the contam and lean towards the OPs technique...
Dirty syringes are not unheard of. One print makes a few syringes if the print was dirty it wouldnt be a suprise a number of those syringes were contamed. Of course it doesn't mean the user shouldn't pick apart his technique to see if it is at fault. Personally I would take it to agar.
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Quote:
PsilocyBen17 said:
I've never seen anyone on this site suggest BRF for a G2G transfer using BRF (even inside a SAB). The reason people use grain is for the multiple inoculation points (colonized grain kernels). For this reason a BRF cake is a poor candidate for G2G's.
On this you are right people do not suggest it but I have seen people use it. Saw a post few days ago where this guy uses a fork to inoculate jars from a master brf cake. Ill try to find it after work. My phone is dying 0.0
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PsilocyBen17
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Quote:
Supalemonhaze said:
Dirty syringes are not unheard of. One print makes a few syringes if the print was dirty it wouldnt be a suprise a number of those syringes were contamed. Of course it doesn't mean the user shouldn't pick apart his technique to see if it is at fault. Personally I would take it to agar.
Dirty syringes from a sponsor aren't unheard of, but they are rare. 4/4 dirty syringes? Thats like encountering a wild Mew and catching it with a normal Pokeball.
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Im sorry catch a what with a what?
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
Loc: 12" down Europe's butthole
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Edit: jokes aside though. Even if a vendor has a spotless track record. If something happens that contams a print chances are a good number of syringes made from that print will carry some kind of contaminate.
So far I have always been amazed at how many contaminated syringes vendors send and ultimately have to replace from their customers.
Edited by Supalemonhaze (11/09/15 05:17 PM)
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ConsciousFungi
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Wow! So it was only 2/4 syringes that may have been contaminated. I know brf is not the best for g2g, but I only had 1cc of ms left.
The 4 jars inoculated with the brf currently do not have any contamination. The jar inoculated with the ms syringe is now full of trich. I understand one jar isnt much for repeated results to test whether or not the SAB fixed my issue. That being said, for 4 g2g transfers to make it and not the single ms jar, I would say its very possibly contaminated.
I also had two other jars, which I inoculated at the beginning of this thread, in open air with another ms syringe (the same one used for the brf cake). Both of those jars are also currently free of contamination.
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
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Thats cool man. Goodluck with fruiting them. Dont forget to post some pics of harvest. That's the best part 
Found that thread where he uses brf for masters. Not exactly sure why though.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11353633
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