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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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thought and emotion
    #22480208 - 11/05/15 09:00 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Thought and emotion are very, very deeply connected.  It is virtually impossible for someone to have an emotion, and not have a corresponding mental state, and it is also virtually impossible to have a thought that does not generate some sort of emotion.  When one is talking about one, one is necessarily talking about the other as well.

Some may object, believing they are separate, but if you observe closely, you'll find that the two neurological processes are deeply interrelated, and inseparable.  If anyone has any insights to share, I would love to hear them.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlineeehoo
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22480958 - 11/05/15 12:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

This has become a science. A guy named Robert Sapolsky who is a behavioral biologist did a lot of research in this field. He had to blow dart baboons in the plains of Africa to sedate them and measure their stress levels. He observed their behavior as well, and found that the people who were concerned with fighting all the time (the most dominant alpha) actually had much higher stress signs. It was the number 3 or 4 male who was most ideal in stress levels. I forget the exact scientific terms he put it in cuz I don't really give a fuck.. To me it's just common sense. It is cool when scientists try to dive into these unknown parts though and he put some good research together that was really mind changing for me a while ago. He applies it to humans and shows how the constant stresses of modern society build up stress through thought but there is no physical exertion. If this interests you check out the book Trouble with Testosterone

He also has another book where he goes more into the baboon research... There was one group where he found male baboons actually grooming each other so there is a lot of variation from tribe to tribe. But generally they want to rip each other's faces off at all time


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Edited by eehoo (11/05/15 12:29 PM)


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: eehoo]
    #22481777 - 11/05/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I believe this is why mantras can really help with stabilizing emotion, and also recognizing ones thought patterns in relation to how one is feeling can help to control thought and therefore emotion..

zen!


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Offlineeehoo
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: hTx]
    #22481811 - 11/05/15 04:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

zen is also aimed at self preservation


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Edited by eehoo (11/05/15 04:33 PM)


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OfflineDevizome
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22482558 - 11/05/15 07:04 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

They are definitely connected. I am wondering though, is it possible to ever not have an emotion or thought?

I can voluntarily think about a white rabbit in a field without becoming emotional about it...but can I? Is the cool, detached witness state of watching this mental rabbit actually emotionless, or is it simply an emotion without a name? It would help to define thought and emotions here.

Does a memory equate to a thought? Memories are highly emotionally charged for sure.

Involuntary thoughts tend to generate/carry more emotion than voluntary ones in my experience. Or maybe not...


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: Devizome] * 1
    #22482662 - 11/05/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not so sure I agree with this. Since I've become a lot better at observing my inner dialogue, I've noticed many thoughts that seem connected to no emotion at all. Very trivial things, like considering LED technology over bulb technology, and considering the benefits is one recent example that springs to mind.


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22482683 - 11/05/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I'm not so sure I agree with this. Since I've become a lot better at observing my inner dialogue, I've noticed many thoughts that seem connected to no emotion at all. Very trivial things, like considering LED technology over bulb technology, and considering the benefits is one recent example that springs to mind.




Well, you must be motivated to have those thoughts, right?  It strikes me as reasonable to assume that if motivation is involved, emotion must be involved in some form as well -- possibly not consciously.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22482784 - 11/05/15 07:53 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm very open to all the marvellous goings on of the subconscious, however I can see no (conscious) motivation for these thoughts, aside from the fact that my inner dialogue simply must have something to drivel on about.

If I really think about it, I guess I'm very technically minded and have a desire to understand things in general. That would, I suppose, be an example of the link to emotion which you posit?


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22482910 - 11/05/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know, I'm just making suggestions.  I am assuming, reasonably I think, that thought and emotion are deeply connected.  I am sure there would be exceptions where one is isolated from the other.  I really am trying to understand very basically; you're probably right.  Your desire to understand may be related, just in a different way.  I'm not sure. :shrug:


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #22482958 - 11/05/15 08:29 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, I guess it's kind of a hard one to nail down, as little as we seem to know about the workings of our minds. I've little doubt about the validity of your suggestion; it makes perfect sense. And the more I think about it, the more likely it seems that it works this way without exception - it just seems likely that much of what is going on is hidden from our conscious mind.

So whilst I suspect that some of what occurs in thought is little more than inane chatter to keep the inner dialogue running, the specific thoughts that come up are likely related to some massive subconscious framework which in itself would likely be built from years and years of stored emotional experiences.


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22482986 - 11/05/15 08:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well said. :thumbup:


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: thought and emotion [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22483031 - 11/05/15 08:43 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that emotions and thoughts are connected; however i dont think they need to be together. Some people do everything with emotions with no thought involved. Following their intuition or whatever. On the other hand, someone could ignore how they feel and think things out in a logical, systematic method and come to conclusions separate from emotions. Even though they're having emotions at the same time, the emotions don't cloud their rational judgement. Furthermore, if we create a computer that can think, I see no reason we need to program emotions in as well. I think human beings developed emotions for socializing, mainly for pair bonding.


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Offlineeehoo
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: White Beard]
    #22483659 - 11/05/15 10:37 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Deminizing emotions is something shoved down people's throats through Star Wars. There's a reason the human body doesn't like society and to ignore that in the way of self preservation to me is immoral. If nature doesn't want this, then I won't be a part of it. Nature speaks through emotion


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: thought and emotion [Re: eehoo]
    #22483748 - 11/05/15 10:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

i dont think nature wants anything.


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Offlineeehoo
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: White Beard]
    #22483898 - 11/05/15 11:18 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It wants balance


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: eehoo]
    #22483917 - 11/05/15 11:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eehoo said:
It wants balance



What makes you so sure of that?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlineeehoo
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22483960 - 11/05/15 11:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Common sense. By design nature is a transfer or energy we all borrow and give back. If humans were meant to horde and live in their own shit then nature would have flowed with it, instead it resisted and brought up disease. If we were meant to lock up chicken to never move and live in their own shit, then they wouldnt have become toxic enough to the point of needing health care. Nature works just fine we just don't follow it at all. It maintains balance for the sake of all species because we are all creation... Human arrogance and fear of death, and inability to participate in the cycle of energy is extremely damaging. But politicians will no ackowledge this, they will hire scientists to use big words and put a bunch of numbers together so they can blame carbon for nature turning on them rather than our inherently flawed lifestyles


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22484329 - 11/06/15 02:45 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Using a flow chart of the nervous system you can predict the emotional outcomes of any event in past or present time with someones perception and reaction to an environmental demand, even lucid dreams leave an emotional footprint that can be found this way.

If you consider thought to be perception then yes, thought is connected to emotion.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: sudly]
    #22485204 - 11/06/15 09:56 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, I think that is quite relevant.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: White Beard]
    #22485248 - 11/06/15 10:03 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
So whilst I suspect that some of what occurs in thought is little more than inane chatter to keep the inner dialogue running, the specific thoughts that come up are likely related to some massive subconscious framework which in itself would likely be built from years and years of stored emotional experiences.




Yes I agree with this. Most thoughts and emotions do seem to come from past impressions that have imprinted themselves on the unconscious, subconscious, or conscious mind.

Quote:

White Beard said:
I agree that emotions and thoughts are connected; however i dont think they need to be together.




Agree with this also. Thoughts and emotions are most definitely linked, but they don't always have to exist simultaneously. What I've found through the practice of vipassana meditation, is that when I sit and observe myself for any length of time, to begin with I will see thoughts, some that are linked with tangible emotions, and some that aren't. But the longer I sit, the more emotions start to come up of their own accord, often not linked to any thoughts at all. Sure, if I were to become involved in those feelings rather than remaining the observer, I'm sure they could take me off into thoughts linked to that emotional state. But I think that these emotions that exist devoid of any thoughts are actually subconscious impressions.


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Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: PocketLady]
    #22485330 - 11/06/15 10:20 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting insights, PocketLady.  Perhaps one of the values of meditation is dampening this cycle (of chains of thought-emotions), which may be more or less a mechanism.  Of course, the meditative state is not the normal state for most people, so perhaps this bird's-eye perspective is an exception to the overall phenomenon.  Once again, I feel it is a general truth that thought and emotion are more closely linked than is generally appreciated, but that there can of course be exceptions to this.  I think this insight on the meditative process from Jsb and PocketLady is very constructive. :thumbup:


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Offlineeehoo
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22486104 - 11/06/15 01:15 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Why would you dissociate from your emotions. That's a good recipe for a good serial killer or rapist ... I'm sure they are pretty good at the "meditative process" of disconnecting their thoughts and emotions


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Offlineeehoo
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: eehoo]
    #22486491 - 11/06/15 02:43 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Have you guys considered negative emotions arise possibly because the structure of our biological wirings doesn't appeal to society, and your soul is rejecting it? Nature is again naturally leading us back to balance it doesn't want us living this way. Same way a lion isn't meant to live in a zoo even if you make it Disneyland ... They need the accomplishment of a hunt and to feel cold or hungry and to achieve. What we create is just mindless obedience while searching for forms of entertainment or "zen". It's all very selfish and short sighted, and lacks any sense of true duty or meaning


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Edited by eehoo (11/06/15 02:44 PM)


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: eehoo]
    #22489381 - 11/07/15 07:08 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I agree.

The emotion of frustration arises when we dont get what our soul/mind wants to have.

Frustration can lead to worst things like rage, anger and contempt.

I believe thoughts can be mostly neutral but with a small overlay of emotion. Of course thought can have a large overlay of emotion too, like a shouting match between an angry couple or a depressed person trying to explain how sad their life is.

My experience of emotion has been pretty weird sometimes. A lot of the time, i can "feel" the seperation of thoughts from emotions, as if i am experienceing them in parallel, simutanously.

Its pretty weird.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #22498914 - 11/09/15 02:30 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

cognitive psychology is based on this notion
this guy is into it big time
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=noah+elkrief

if you watch the breathing of actors in a movie one can also see how emotions are related to certain breathing patterns.

I wonder how dissociatives, and even antihistamines cause effects on emotions.

So there seems to be effects from thought, chemistry, and breathing, and who knows what else genetics, lobotomies ...


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: laughingdog]
    #22502091 - 11/09/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I think negative emotions are linked to thoughts. I've never been depressed, anxious, jealous, angry, or afraid without accompanying thoughts. 

Meditation is a practice for learning how our mind works, and how we disturb ourselves. Life doesn't make us miserable. We do that to ourselves.

Believing our thoughts, especially our non-stop judgments (about ourselves and others), cause us suffering.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #22502134 - 11/09/15 07:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I think negative emotions are linked to thoughts. I've never been depressed, anxious, jealous, angry, or afraid without accompanying thoughts. 





Exactly.  And the thoughts themselves can feed back to those emotions, reinforcing them and often causing despair and despondency.  Everything is interrelated in our minds.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22502333 - 11/09/15 07:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

In case it hasn't been mentioned, "The Tyranny of the Shoulds" greatly contributes to our emotional disturbances.

Thinking that contains "should" statements creates suffering.

My parents should have loved me more and treated me better.
I shouldn't be so lazy.
My life should be different.
My spouse should not have betrayed me.
My coworker should treat me fairly. 
Life should not be difficult.

I made a mistake earlier today (I missed a meeting I wanted to attend), and I'm still irritated that I got distracted and lost track of time.
The line that keeps running thru my head is, "I should not have been so stupid." It's a challenge to not go down that road!


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22505988 - 11/10/15 04:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Negative emotions are linked to perceptions.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: sudly]
    #22506249 - 11/10/15 05:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

Negative emotions are linked to perceptions.






I don't understand. Can you explain your perspective?

The five perceptions we experience are sight, hearing, touch, smell, and taste.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: thought and emotion [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #22506374 - 11/10/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Internal perception of the cognitive nervous system. The perceptions are either external (objective) or internal (subjective). How perception is regulated creates the outcome of an emotion.


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Re: thought and emotion [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22507027 - 11/10/15 08:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Thought and emotion are very, very deeply connected.  It is virtually impossible for someone to have an emotion, and not have a corresponding mental state, and it is also virtually impossible to have a thought that does not generate some sort of emotion.  When one is talking about one, one is necessarily talking about the other as well.

Some may object, believing they are separate, but if you observe closely, you'll find that the two neurological processes are deeply interrelated, and inseparable.  If anyone has any insights to share, I would love to hear them.




Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT), created by Dr. Albert Ellis in 1955 is based on this concept, that our thinking and the perspective we take forms our emotions. I've used REBT for depression, anxiety, and anger, very successfully. I find Cognitive Therapy to be incredibly powerful. Cognitive Therapy is still used a lot today, but does not get a lot of "press". I used it to quit meth. I was not very difficult. 

I'm sure many know this, but thought I'd mention it for others


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