|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
Do you think we have free will? 1
#22479731 - 11/05/15 07:12 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I never thought so, or at the very least I wouldn't say we fully do. I've noticed religious people in general say god gave us freewill to choose but where was the option to choose whether we wanted to go through all of this or not?
If you try not to think or focus only on one thing like your breath, thoughts just pop into your head without you choosing what those thoughts are, which makes me think this happens often but we're never paying that close of attention, so if we don't even fully choose what we're always thinking about, and thought is what influences our actions, would it be possible that we just feel in control when we really aren't?
Do you think we do or dont? Why or why not, I have more reasons I think we don't but it would be long-winded and sound even dumber than it probably already does.
Everytime someone has asked me this question my usual response is "of course we do, we don't have a choice"
Edited by SirShroomsAlott (11/05/15 07:19 AM)
|
Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
|
|
I think because we have the ability to plan and forsee outcomes that we do have freewill. We're capable of planning ahead and choosing the action that best suites us. That's something that requires choice.
|
connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
|
|
Do you think the future already exists? I mean the past exists and now exists why not the future everything that has happend or will happen is probably in existence! Lol idk
--------------------
 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
|
"Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills." - A. Schopenhauer
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
|
Quote:
SirShroomsAlott said: I never thought so, or at the very least I wouldn't say we fully do. I've noticed religious people in general say god gave us freewill to choose but where was the option to choose whether we wanted to go through all of this or not?
so you're saying that a person doesnt have the ability to kill themselves because they dont have the free will to choose life or death
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#22479793 - 11/05/15 07:32 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
SirShroomsAlott said: I never thought so, or at the very least I wouldn't say we fully do. I've noticed religious people in general say god gave us freewill to choose but where was the option to choose whether we wanted to go through all of this or not?
so you're saying that a person doesnt have the ability to kill themselves because they dont have the free will to choose life or death
I would say that, yeah, you can kill yourself...but then you always were going to kill yourself. If you don't, you weren't 
Living in this timeline feels very free...only because we can't see the future.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
|
Quote:
Bodhi of Ankou said: I think because we have the ability to plan and forsee outcomes that we do have freewill. We're capable of planning ahead and choosing the action that best suites us. That's something that requires choice.
I agree to am extent, but even than you're making a plan to choose something in the future that was influenced by past actions the outcomes of which you most likely didn't have control over.
Say you're put on the spot and forced to make a choice, a ridiculous scenario but like "kill your father or your mother dies" or anything that requires a choice without an advanced plan. Thoughts will pop into your head that will influence the choice you're about to make and you didn't choose them yet they're the basis for your decision, so it feels like you chose but you made a choice based off something you didn't choose, if that makes sense.
I'm not trying to argue or anything btw, I jus think freewill is an interesting topic
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
#22479824 - 11/05/15 07:39 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
trendal said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
SirShroomsAlott said: I never thought so, or at the very least I wouldn't say we fully do. I've noticed religious people in general say god gave us freewill to choose but where was the option to choose whether we wanted to go through all of this or not?
so you're saying that a person doesnt have the ability to kill themselves because they dont have the free will to choose life or death
I would say that, yeah, you can kill yourself...but then you always were going to kill yourself. If you don't, you weren't 
Living in this timeline feels very free...only because we can't see the future.
you only say that because you have the freewill to do so
|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#22479835 - 11/05/15 07:42 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
SirShroomsAlott said: I never thought so, or at the very least I wouldn't say we fully do. I've noticed religious people in general say god gave us freewill to choose but where was the option to choose whether we wanted to go through all of this or not?
so you're saying that a person doesnt have the ability to kill themselves because they dont have the free will to choose life or death
I'm saying that the thought of killing themselves and the action of doing it was caused by thoughts that came about because of actions and events that they didn't have control or a choice over throughout life
IMO thoughts dictate choices and we don't have full control over thought, whether that's right or not I can't say I've just always felt that way
Edited by SirShroomsAlott (11/05/15 07:47 AM)
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#22479837 - 11/05/15 07:42 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
No, I only say that because I saw a post on here about free will - free will is something I have a rather intense interest in - and because I read a post by you.
Then again, we always were going to have this conversation. You always were going to read this post
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
LessonsLearndNLife
Mushroamer


Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 20
Loc: Sumner Washington
Last seen: 8 years, 26 days
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#22479846 - 11/05/15 07:43 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I think freewill is a perception it's how our brain is wired kinda like a computer.
--------------------
It's the question that drives us It's the question that brought us here. You know the question, just as I do
|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
#22479856 - 11/05/15 07:46 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
trendal said: No, I only say that because I saw a post on here about free will - free will is something I have a rather intense interest in - and because I read a post by you.
Then again, we always were going to have this conversation. You always were going to read this post 
I feel the same, I think about free will a lot for some reason
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
|
Quote:
SirShroomsAlott said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
SirShroomsAlott said: I never thought so, or at the very least I wouldn't say we fully do. I've noticed religious people in general say god gave us freewill to choose but where was the option to choose whether we wanted to go through all of this or not?
so you're saying that a person doesnt have the ability to kill themselves because they dont have the free will to choose life or death
I'm saying that the thought of killing themselves and the action of doing it was caused by thoughts that came about because of actions and events that they didn't have control or a choice over throughout life
IMO thoughts dictate choices and we don't have full control over though, whether that's right or not I can't say I've just always felt that way
but they have that choice, the illusion of a predetermined outcome is a religious one, a 'god' that is micromanaging every single event in everyone's life, having a noisy brain doesnt strip one of free will
|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#22479992 - 11/05/15 08:13 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Not necescarily IMO I think it can still have a natural explanation, it's just the way our brains are wired to work, we feel in control of our thoughts when we don't choose what we think about, our past events dictates what we're going to think about in any given situation giving us the illusion of choice IMO though you could be right, it's not like I have the answer
For example even though this will sound like a hippy or just plain dumb, if I say, "I'm going to choose what I think about, so I'll think about apples" I wasn't thinking of apples before I thought that, apples just popped up first without me doing anything, so why did my mind choose apples instead of a billion other things it could of went to, I feel like I chose to think about apples when in reality I would of had to think before I think for me to of chose apples rather than something else, my mind chose it for me even though I feel like I'm the one doing the thinking
By the time this thread dies out I feel like I'm going to have a reputation as even more of a tard than before
|
Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
|
|
Quote:
SirShroomsAlott said:
Quote:
Bodhi of Ankou said: I think because we have the ability to plan and forsee outcomes that we do have freewill. We're capable of planning ahead and choosing the action that best suites us. That's something that requires choice.
I agree to am extent, but even than you're making a plan to choose something in the future that was influenced by past actions the outcomes of which you most likely didn't have control over.
Say you're put on the spot and forced to make a choice, a ridiculous scenario but like "kill your father or your mother dies" or anything that requires a choice without an advanced plan. Thoughts will pop into your head that will influence the choice you're about to make and you didn't choose them yet they're the basis for your decision, so it feels like you chose but you made a choice based off something you didn't choose, if that makes sense.
I'm not trying to argue or anything btw, I jus think freewill is an interesting topic
Thoughts may pop into your mind but you have an ability to override and create your own narrative through critical thinking about the situation. If you practiced meditation at any length it's relatively easy to silence the flow of them. As far as the "everything was already gonna be that way lol" camp. Many, many things in this universe are determined on probability. Something that's the anti-thesis to predetermination.
|
Malcolm_Xtasy
Oh baby what Is you doin??



Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 13,851
Loc:
|
|
Oh God. Another one of these threads? I'm disappointed in you, SSA. I guess I'm obligated to make a "Does God exist?" thread now
-------------------- I'm stupid, Enlil is smart. I'm ugly, Enlil is beautiful. I'm a loser, Enlil is a winner. Someday, I hope to be like Enlil but secretly know I never will.
|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
|
Lolol I couldn't help myself, I'm hoping no one argues religion or the existence of God here. I mean I guess in a way it would come down to god or no god at some point but hopefully it can just be a fun thought provoking discussion without arguing beliefs of a higher power
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
|
Quote:
SirShroomsAlott said: Not necescarily IMO I think it can still have a natural explanation, it's just the way our brains are wired to work, we feel in control of our thoughts when we don't choose what we think about, our past events dictates what we're going to think about in any given situation giving us the illusion of choice IMO though you could be right, it's not like I have the answer
yet we can in fact choose what we think about
Quote:
For example even though this will sound like a hippy or just plain dumb, if I say, "I'm going to choose what I think about, so I'll think about apples" I wasn't thinking of apples before I thought that, apples just popped up first without me doing anything, so why did my mind choose apples instead of a billion other things it could of went to, I feel like I chose to think about apples when in reality I would of had to think before I think for me to of chose apples rather than something else, my mind chose it for me even though I feel like I'm the one doing the thinking
you're right, it sounds completely dumb since you chose to think about apples, regardless, you choose what you think about and even when you dont make the choice and a random thought pops into your head, it doesnt negate free will, it's how our brains are wired. you decide to think of something and something you see or hear may trigger a random thought. if all you have are random thoughts then you may have a mental illness
Quote:
By the time this thread dies out I feel like I'm going to have a reputation as even more of a tard than before 
hahaha.. see, it was your freewill that made you a tard and our freewill to say you've strayed well beyond just being a tard
|
TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.



Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
|
It seems if you follow true will life is a lot healthier!
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
|
LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,359
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 2 hours, 16 minutes
|
|
I just askeed this question in the Philosophy forum myself. How weird.
Good point about the random thoughts!
Whats interesting is u cannot control the random thoughts, but with mediatation practice, u can learn to ignore the thoughts and focus on your breath instead.
I believe humans have partial free will. Things like peer pressure, social influence and the bystander effect for example make free will seem non-existant.
But each of us has our own preference, say for psychoactive drugs. Some people like psychedelics, others dont. Some people like opiates. Others care less, Etc.
Isnt this free will, the choice to choose what we like?
And taste in movies. Isnt that our choice in what movies we like?
does a slave or prisoner not want to escape their shackles?
I believe we start out with partial free will, and over time, we can develop more free will.
Its like its earned thru experience.
I would say stubborn people have the most free will of all.
-------------------- "What you must understand is that your physical dimension affects everyone in the higher dimensions as well. All things are interconnected. All things are One. Therefore, if one dimension is broken or out of balance, then all other dimensions will experience repercussions." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020 The New Golden Age by James Carwin PROJECT BLUE BOOK ANALYSIS! (312 pages!) | Psychedelics & UFOs | Ready to Contact UFOs? | The Source on Mushrooms | Trippy Gematrix | Dj TeknoLogical | Fentanyl Test Kits R.I.P. Big Worm || The Start of the Ascension Process was 2020. Welcome to the Next Great Era of Earth 🌎🌍🌏
  Oregon Eclipse Festival 2017 :: Aug 19th - 21st :: Pure Paradise   Very Effective LSA Extraction Tek | 💧 Advanced Cold Water LSA Extraction Method 💧 |  Mescajuana - Mescaline with Marijuana | DMT Dab Bongs | UFO Technology! Shpongle
     
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
|
Quote:
Bodhi of Ankou said: Many, many things in this universe are determined on probability. Something that's the anti-thesis to predetermination.
I would argue that probability and predetermination are not exclusive.
Probability is something that only we, who are bound up in this timeline, can say makes any sense. It is only because we can't see the future. If I say X has a probability of Y occurring, what I am really saying is that I don't know if X will occur or not, and so I am giving it Y chance of occurring. In QM we'll say that electron X has Y chance of being right here at a given time...but we cannot say that X will be here. What I am saying is that electron X does have a position in space, and it is only right now that we may not know what that position is. But it still has a position. So we have come up with a great tool (quantum mechanics) to say what that position probably is. For any electron. At any time.
The past is "set in stone"...why would you think the future is any different? Time is invariant.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
GreenBean
Stranger
Registered: 10/29/15
Posts: 489
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
#22480128 - 11/05/15 08:44 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Free will is just as much of an illusion as Democracy is
|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#22480134 - 11/05/15 08:45 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
yet we can in fact choose what we think about
you're right, it sounds completely dumb since you chose to think about apples, regardless, you choose what you think about and even when you dont make the choice and a random thought pops into your head, it doesnt negate free will, it's how our brains are wired. you decide to think of something and something you see or hear may trigger a random thought. if all you have are random thoughts then you may have a mental illness
Quote:
By the time this thread dies out I feel like I'm going to have a reputation as even more of a tard than before 
hahaha.. see, it was your freewill that made you a tard and our freewill to say you've strayed well beyond just being a tard
I knew making it some of the things I said would come off wacky or off the wall lol ive always had weird theories especially about freewill for some reason, I'm totally open to being wrong though since the answer won't actually make my life any different and I'm not firmly attached to my own beliefs
|
Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
#22480141 - 11/05/15 08:47 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Except you can't conclusively prove that point making it nothing more then philosophical nonsense. What can be proven is that particle A has a 30% chance of decay over this timeframe, or this electron has an 80% chance of being in this area. Something totally contrary to predeterminism.
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
|
Quote:
Do you think we have free will?
Probably not.
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: GreenBean]
#22480159 - 11/05/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The future is predetermined...but it is not determinable by us. In order to determine the future, I would have to somehow remove myself from this universe and have a look at it all.
Hmm. It may be that notions of "time" and "space" are just that - notions. They aren't what really is, any more than what I think the color "red" is - it's all just different interpretations my brain is making, in order for me to live.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
|
Quote:
Bodhi of Ankou said: Except you can't conclusively prove that point making it nothing more then philosophical nonsense. What can be proven is that particle A has a 30% chance of decay over this timeframe, or this electron has an 80% chance of being in this area. Something totally contrary to predeterminism.
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive - we can't use probability to determine where an electron is, but it is somewhere. Likewise I can't determine that a particle will break down at a certain time...but clearly it does break down at a certain time. Events are in the past, and we usually can determine when and where they happen. It's only when we look at the future that we have to use probability.
Is string theory "philosophical nonsense"? It has, to my knowledge, yet to make a single testable prediction.
Time is invariant.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
Edited by trendal (11/05/15 08:58 AM)
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
#22480189 - 11/05/15 08:57 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
trendal said: The future is predetermined...
prove it
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#22480199 - 11/05/15 08:59 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
trendal said: The future is predetermined...
prove it
Is the past determined?
I say again: time is invariant.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
#22480210 - 11/05/15 09:01 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I say again: time is invariant.
Huh? Thats not strictly true. Under what transformation are you considering it invariant?
And even if/when it is, that doesn't support your claim... I think you are using the word "determined" in a non-standard way.
|
Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
#22480221 - 11/05/15 09:02 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
You keep saying time is invariant like that proves something. Its some limp dick philosophical assertion that's nothing more then a play on words.
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: DieCommie]
#22480254 - 11/05/15 09:12 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Sorry, what I mean is that in physics time does not have an "arrow" (although it certainly feels as if there is one). Physical actions can be described perfectly in reverse.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
#22480265 - 11/05/15 09:16 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
trendal said: Sorry, what I mean is that in physics time does not have an "arrow" (although it certainly feels as if there is one). Physical actions can be described perfectly in reverse.
Doesn't make sense to me. You are denying the arrow of time in physics? Sure physical actions can be described perfectly in reverse. But isn't that akin to begging the question? We create our description of observations based on those observations.
|
LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,359
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 2 hours, 16 minutes
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
#22480268 - 11/05/15 09:16 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
But u still cannot "undo" things. Yet!
I bet scientists are trying to figure out how to reverse time with a reaal-life time machine 
Time does vary, as in bending space also bends time. But to "undo" time is completely different thing that Humans cannot do (unless on psychedelics )
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
#22480274 - 11/05/15 09:18 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
trendal said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
trendal said: The future is predetermined...
prove it
Is the past determined?
I say again: time is invariant.
the past has already passed, it's pretty much set in stone, the future is uncertain so you'll have to prove it's predetermined
tell your employer that time is irrelevant when you show up late every day and take 2 hour lunches
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
#22480282 - 11/05/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
trendal said: Sorry, what I mean is that in physics time does not have an "arrow" (although it certainly feels as if there is one). Physical actions can be described perfectly in reverse.
well that still means nothing, how about describing what's ahead
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#22480294 - 11/05/15 09:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
trendal said: Sorry, what I mean is that in physics time does not have an "arrow" (although it certainly feels as if there is one). Physical actions can be described perfectly in reverse.
well that still means nothing, how about describing what's ahead
We do that all the time. Use observations of the past, make theories that describe them, use those theories to predict the future. The closer in time to the present and the more information we have the better our prediction of the future is.
|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
|
Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said: I just askeed this question in the Philosophy forum myself. How weird.
Good point about the random thoughts!
Whats interesting is u cannot control the random thoughts, but with mediatation practice, u can learn to ignore the thoughts and focus on your breath instead.
I believe humans have partial free will. Things like peer pressure, social influence and the bystander effect for example make free will seem non-existant.
But each of us has our own preference, say for psychoactive drugs. Some people like psychedelics, others dont. Some people like opiates. Others care less, Etc.
Isnt this free will, the choice to choose what we like?
And taste in movies. Isnt that our choice in what movies we like?
does a slave or prisoner not want to escape their shackles?
I believe we start out with partial free will, and over time, we can develop more free will.
Its like its earned thru experience.
I would say stubborn people have the most free will of all.
This is almost exactly how I feel about it, a sort of mix of freewill and a kind of predetermination based on what you've expeienced throughout life
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: DieCommie]
#22480314 - 11/05/15 09:30 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
trendal said: Sorry, what I mean is that in physics time does not have an "arrow" (although it certainly feels as if there is one). Physical actions can be described perfectly in reverse.
well that still means nothing, how about describing what's ahead
We do that all the time. Use observations of the past, make theories that describe them, use those theories to predict the future. The closer in time to the present and the more information we have the better our prediction of the future is.
predictions of the future are frequently vague, inaccurate or wrong
|
trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#22480326 - 11/05/15 09:34 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: well that still means nothing, how about describing what's ahead
I'm having a really hard time remembering the future
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#22480327 - 11/05/15 09:34 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
predictions of the future are frequently vague, inaccurate or wrong
I don't think so. I think they are pretty damn accurate if you consider them as a whole. Predict the sun will rise in the morning, predict that the weather will warm in the summer, predict that the car will start when I turn it over, predict that I will die within a few decades, predict that if I pull the trigger a bullet will come out - these are all very accurate predictions of the future. You take then for granted as obvious because they are so accurate and specific.
|
Perusha_Kyuden



Registered: 07/27/15
Posts: 644
Loc: Canada
|
|
Well man i certainly cant agree with you on that one
We do have control over ourselves since we can always plan ahead but alot of it depends on who you are and what you believe in, and alot of people dont really have thenselves situated they are completely dependent on society, almost like brainwashed. People are so unique and beautiful i find it sad that schools/parents dont raise people to be individual thinkers, to blossom like flowers:) instead most people are just empty of life and just simple reflections of their environment/society.
Coming back on topic I have had momments where i feel like i had no free will but i think theres a point where you subcounsciously know yourself well enough to act without paying attention while still counscious (not just talking in Your sleep) but i doubt anyone could ever act without free will... Maybe if they somehow thought their mind had been hijacked by an outside force but that would be pure insanity.
Anyways sorry for rambling mann peace:)<3
-------------------- Master of none
|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
|
By all means feel free to ramble, all opinions are welcome.
"Maybe if they somehow thought their mind had been hijacked by an outside force but that would be pure insanity."
I used to read a lot of philosophy and I remember I think it was Rene Descartes who made that quote "I think therefore I am" which revolved around that thought exactly, it's been a while since I read it but I believe he was saying something along the lines of, what if a demon was controlling or manipulating everything outside of himself and how could he be sure anything is real, and eventually came to the conclusion which is the famous quote "I think therefore I am" meaning your thoughts are proof you exist even if everything else is being manipulated or fake.
The only reason I bring that up is because there was another philospher who tried to debunk him saying what if the demon was the one projecting the thoughts into his head making it so "thinking" wasn't proof of existence and that you could still be being manipulated by an outside force.
It basically is mumbo jumbo/insanity but both books were really thought provoking and interesting perspectives. I might of just butchered it completely too, it's been years since I read those books lol
But those lines of thought do in some way reflect my position that while it might not be a demon or entity controlling our thoughts, it's just the wiring of our brains that determines the thoughts we think, maybe not fully as some people pointed out there are clearly choices we undoubtedly make but I still think it's a mix of just your configuration/ what you've experienced in the past that you didn't have control over that influences your choices mixed with freewill. I'm open to us having freewill, after all I feel like I'm the one making choices, just certain aspects of it make me think it's not as simple as we either do or don't
|
Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
|
|
If its all predetermined then why should there be any sort of active perception of anything going on? Why isn't it just zombie mode? A car engine isn't aware of anything why are we?
Edited by Bodhi of Ankou (11/05/15 10:33 AM)
|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
|
Edit: I reread what I said and realized how retarded it was
But idk, idk why we have awareness and a car engine doesn't, just like I don't know why there is something rather than nothing
But my lack of an answer or understanding isn't evidence or proof for something else, we're humans and not made to understand the complexities of existence.
Edited by SirShroomsAlott (11/05/15 11:23 AM)
|
Perusha_Kyuden



Registered: 07/27/15
Posts: 644
Loc: Canada
|
|
We might not be able to understand life's complexities but we should definitely question them
Because we CAN
Thats what makes us different from the car engine is that we are constantly thinking, questioning and evolving
Its what makes us human. Everyone needs something to believe in<3
-------------------- Master of none
|
Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
|
Thinking whether we have free will or not is a bit of a hard question. Personally, I'm convinced we all do, but there's a bit of doubt whether or not we have free will. And it's mainly due to me thinking about time travel.
There's 2 theories that I like to think about when it comes to time travel. Number 1 is that every decision you make creates a new universe that branches out infinitely into more universe with every decision that anyone makes, creating an infinite amount of possible outcomes. This theory implies free will, that we have the option to do what we want, and that could change the course of our universe.
Theory number 2 is that everything we do has already been predetermined to happen, so every decision we make has already been set to happen so the universe will end in the way that it has already set course for. Say you go back in time to kill hitler as a baby, you kill him. But his younger brother pretty much takes over his place. This theory implies that we have no real say in the universe, and have no free will. Only the illusion of it.
--------------------
|
Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
|
|
depends on how you define free will. To my mind, free will is essentially an incorrect concept ie, given the happenings of the universe and your upbringing/conditioning, your genetics etc, each choice you face is in a way predetermined and a given person would only chose a given option to each quandry. Though since its pretty hard to predict any of that, it's much easier to just operate under the assumption that we do have free will, especially for the purposes of law which is fine by me
|
Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Ezuma] 1
#22481132 - 11/05/15 01:10 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I tend to think of life as a game your dropped into. You don't have any say in where youre dropped in or who raises you and the effect that has on you but youre in total control of personal direction and growth. No different then a super immersive mmorpg.
|
morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper



Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 4 days, 19 hours
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Ezuma]
#22481177 - 11/05/15 01:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
If I don't have don't a free will, then there is no point in arguing about it, because any argument I come up with is just determined by physical forces and there is no good reason to say whether it makes sense or doesn't make sense.
|
Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
|
|
that's definitely an optimal view to have. I suspect what constitutes reality and what constitutes a prime functioning human view of the world don't align perfectly. So when I say I don't really believe in free will, I still live with the assumption it exists. It's only on sitting down and thinking about it that you're reminded it's illusory, much like the ego I guess. Illusory but very useful.
|
Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: morrowasted]
#22481190 - 11/05/15 01:29 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
morrowasted said: If I don't have don't a free will, then there is no point in arguing about it, because any argument I come up with is just determined by physical forces and there is no good reason to say whether it makes sense or doesn't make sense.
pretty much but same goes for any opinion. It's all just shits and giggles from then on
|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Ezuma] 1
#22481215 - 11/05/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
That's basically all this thread was about, it's not about arguing who is right or wrong, just seeing different perspectives on an idea where the answer won't realistically make anyone's life any different. Just a fun topic of conversation
|
LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,359
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 2 hours, 16 minutes
|
|
Its an interesting topic in court too.
Take a guy on trial for murder.
Was it intentional? Did he kill his family out of free will or was it his Schizophrenia "controlling his thoughts"?
Some people kill "in the moment" while others think it out for a looong time. Which is more like free will?
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] 1
#22481238 - 11/05/15 01:48 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said: Was it intentional? Did he kill his family out of free will or was it his Schizophrenia "controlling his thoughts"?
Some people kill "in the moment" while others think it out for a looong time. Which is more like free will?
In the end, what difference does it make? They are a danger to society either way.
|
Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: DieCommie]
#22481358 - 11/05/15 02:27 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said: Was it intentional? Did he kill his family out of free will or was it his Schizophrenia "controlling his thoughts"?
Some people kill "in the moment" while others think it out for a looong time. Which is more like free will?
In the end, what difference does it make? They are a danger to society either way.
this. I don't see the useful aspect of justice as punishment, so it doesn't matter. It's just a question of whether someone is too dangerous to have walking around freely
|
millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Ezuma]
#22481462 - 11/05/15 02:59 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
i wish i could recall the details of the free will talk i attended earlier this year. the professor i heard lecture is our department's free will guy. he broke the issue down into two camps: neo-aristotelian and humean. i can't recall what distinguishes one from the other. i'm throwing it out there in case anyone knows what i'm talking about. it was a fascinating talk. really, really cool professor. i'm taking him for ethics this semester.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
|
Vsnares.Zappa
bend over


Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 3,153
Last seen: 3 months, 16 days
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: millzy] 1
#22481762 - 11/05/15 04:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
you didn't chose to be born
you didn't chose your parents
you didn't chose where you were born.
you don't have free will
|
Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Vsnares.Zappa] 1
#22481768 - 11/05/15 04:24 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
That's so dum.
|
blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
|
|
free will was invented by humans its not tangible
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: blackdust]
#22481976 - 11/05/15 05:02 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
No it wasn't.
--------------------
|
Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: blackdust]
#22481981 - 11/05/15 05:04 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
YOur reasoning is pretty stupid tbh. If I drop you in a box with a gun, you have the free will to shoot yourself in the head or to wait an uncertain amount of time until someone let's you out.
Free will doesn't require you to control everything, just control your own actions.
--------------------
|
blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Achillita]
#22482002 - 11/05/15 05:09 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
 perspective
|
Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: blackdust]
#22482011 - 11/05/15 05:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Shit posts with no substance
|
blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
|
|
Alan Watts put it: ‘Will and fate are two aspects of the same thing. Life lives you, you do not live life. Everything that happens is “of itself so”.’
What you do is what the whole universe is doing now. In the same way, a single wave is something the whole ocean is doing — you cannot point to a discrete end or beginning of a wave. You are experiencing different aspects of one thing happening, not separate events linked by cause and effect. Imagine a dance between two people that looks so seamless you can’t tell who’s leading and who’s following. Is it the ‘you’ who is called ‘Tim Lott’ or ‘Joe Doakes’ or whatever, or is it the sum total of everything that’s going on? Ultimately, what’s the difference?
But where does this leave you? ‘Free’ to do whatever you want to do? Possibly. Or perhaps its means you’re absolutely unfree. It depends which way you look at it. The view that there is no ‘you’ for things to happen to is a hard, even painful one to accept. There is only a continuum: you, everything. There is no such thing as progression in time, with one cause pushing a certain effect. This is also an illusion.
For some this could be a terrifying prospect. But for me this is a good arrangement. It involves a universe full of surprises rather than a dead machine, as the determinists would have it. And neither is it a factory of regret, guilt and anxiety, which tend to be suffered by those who believe in free will too much. It leaves existence as a profound mystery and, without mystery, life would be intolerably boring.
|
Vsnares.Zappa
bend over


Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 3,153
Last seen: 3 months, 16 days
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: blackdust] 1
#22482783 - 11/05/15 07:53 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
everything we do most of the time is unconscious.
freedom doesn't exist, free will neither. you are trapped in your own self , who has been imprinted since a young age, to think, feel and act in a certain way according to the place you were born, can't argue with that my friend. lucky he who can escape (sometimes) his set of ingrained belief systems. thats why we take shrooms in the first place lol.
Edited by Vsnares.Zappa (11/05/15 07:58 PM)
|
Alexestalex
fallen angel


Registered: 03/20/12
Posts: 5,644
Loc: heart of the sun
|
|
Has anybody here read the book "What is Man" by Mark Twain?
This book is a FUCKING gem. I strongly recommend you all read it. Most people haven't even heard of it which is sad considering it's one of Twain's best works. You can find the pdf quite easily on google and it's a short read.
I do NOT believe in any sort of free will and that book illustrates precisely why, down to the smallest detail.
--------------------
Stay far from timid, only make moves when your heart's in it.
|
suttree
Your vibrational content


Registered: 10/21/15
Posts: 409
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
|
|
Conditioning. Free will will never be taken away unless you choose to give it away down dark roads spiritually. Even then, free will till a point. Many are willing to take it or maybe as well it is mainly a source. A magnet.
I choose free will and freedom. It is ironic how you can choose free will in mortality and be in bondage but free in eternity. Authority in life and the esoteric/spirit world. So far I do not trust the latter. And I think I am fucked anyway to what really matters.
-------------------- PCT
|
Tritonal
Stranger

Registered: 11/05/15
Posts: 13
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: suttree] 1
#22483415 - 11/05/15 09:56 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I think we are all slaves to our environments...
Free will is an illusion
--------------------
|
sprinkles
otd president


Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 21,527
Loc: washington state
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
|
|
oh ok treant
|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: sprinkles]
#22484547 - 11/06/15 06:10 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
|
SirShroomsAlott
Howdy



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 6,945
Loc: United States
|
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Alexestalex]
#22485587 - 11/06/15 11:11 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Alexestalex said: Has anybody here read the book "What is Man" by Mark Twain?
This book is a FUCKING gem. I strongly recommend you all read it. Most people haven't even heard of it which is sad considering it's one of Twain's best works. You can find the pdf quite easily on google and it's a short read.
I do NOT believe in any sort of free will and that book illustrates precisely why, down to the smallest detail.
Sorry to bump my thread again but I'm actually trying to buy this book now (thanks for the recommendation ) and all the ones I'm seeing are ones like "Mark Twain on Religion: What is Man, The War Prayer, Thou Shalt Not Kill, The Fly, Letters from the Earth" Is it a combo type of book filled with other writings by Mark Twain?
|
CookieCrumbs
Fucked off to the pub


Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,146
|
|
To some degree yes.
But there is also millions upon millions upon millions of things that influence our options and decisions. In our world there is both fate and free will.
--------------------
Free time is the only time
|
nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
|
|
Yes and no. Free will is a relative concept.
I doubt we are gonna solve this here today.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
|
|