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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #22480094 - 11/05/15 08:38 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Many, many things in this universe are determined on probability. Something that's the anti-thesis to predetermination.




I would argue that probability and predetermination are not exclusive.

Probability is something that only we, who are bound up in this timeline, can say makes any sense. It is only because we can't see the future. If I say X has a probability of Y occurring, what I am really saying is that I don't know if X will occur or not, and so I am giving it Y chance of occurring. In QM we'll say that electron X has Y chance of being right here at a given time...but we cannot say that X will be here. What I am saying is that electron X does have a position in space, and it is only right now that we may not know what that position is. But it still has a position. So we have come up with a great tool (quantum mechanics) to say what that position probably is. For any electron. At any time.

The past is "set in stone"...why would you think the future is any different? Time is invariant.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineGreenBean
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
    #22480128 - 11/05/15 08:44 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Free will is just as much of an illusion as Democracy is


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22480134 - 11/05/15 08:45 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:


yet we can in fact choose what we think about


you're right, it sounds completely dumb since you chose to think about apples,
regardless, you choose what you think about and even when you dont make the
choice and a random thought pops into your head, it doesnt negate free will, it's
how our brains are wired. you decide to think of something and something you see
or hear may trigger a random thought. if all you have are random thoughts then
you may have a mental illness

Quote:

By the time this thread dies out I feel like I'm going to have a reputation as even more of a tard than before :lol:





hahaha.. see, it was your freewill that made you a tard and our freewill to
say you've strayed well beyond just being a tard




I knew making it some of the things I said would come off wacky or off the wall lol ive always had weird theories especially about freewill for some reason, I'm totally open to being wrong though since the answer won't actually make my life any different and I'm not firmly attached to my own beliefs


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
    #22480141 - 11/05/15 08:47 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Except you can't conclusively prove that point making it nothing more then philosophical nonsense. What can be proven is that particle A has a 30% chance of decay over this timeframe, or this electron has an 80% chance of being in this area. Something totally contrary to predeterminism.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #22480148 - 11/05/15 08:49 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Do you think we have free will?




Probably not.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: GreenBean]
    #22480159 - 11/05/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

The future is predetermined...but it is not determinable by us. In order to determine the future, I would have to somehow remove myself from this universe and have a look at it all.

Hmm. It may be that notions of "time" and "space" are just that - notions. They aren't what really is, any more than what I think the color "red" is - it's all just different interpretations my brain is making, in order for me to live.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #22480182 - 11/05/15 08:55 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Except you can't conclusively prove that point making it nothing more then philosophical nonsense. What can be proven is that particle A has a 30% chance of decay over this timeframe, or this electron has an 80% chance of being in this area. Something totally contrary to predeterminism.




I don't think the two are mutually exclusive - we can't use probability to determine where an electron is, but it is somewhere. Likewise I can't determine that a particle will break down at a certain time...but clearly it does break down at a certain time. Events are in the past, and we usually can determine when and where they happen. It's only when we look at the future that we have to use probability.

Is string theory "philosophical nonsense"? It has, to my knowledge, yet to make a single testable prediction.

Time is invariant.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


Edited by trendal (11/05/15 08:58 AM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
    #22480189 - 11/05/15 08:57 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
The future is predetermined...





prove it


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22480199 - 11/05/15 08:59 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

trendal said:
The future is predetermined...





prove it




Is the past determined?

I say again: time is invariant.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
    #22480210 - 11/05/15 09:01 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I say again: time is invariant.




Huh?  Thats not strictly true.  Under what transformation are you considering it invariant?


And even if/when it is, that doesn't support your claim...  I think you are using the word "determined" in a non-standard way.


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
    #22480221 - 11/05/15 09:02 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

You keep saying time is invariant like that proves something. Its some limp dick philosophical assertion that's nothing more then a play on words.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22480254 - 11/05/15 09:12 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry, what I mean is that in physics time does not have an "arrow" (although it certainly feels as if there is one). Physical actions can be described perfectly in reverse.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
    #22480265 - 11/05/15 09:16 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Sorry, what I mean is that in physics time does not have an "arrow" (although it certainly feels as if there is one). Physical actions can be described perfectly in reverse.




:shrug:  Doesn't make sense to me.  You are denying the arrow of time in physics?  Sure physical actions can be described perfectly in reverse.  But isn't that akin to begging the question?  We create our description of observations based on those observations.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
    #22480268 - 11/05/15 09:16 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

But u still cannot "undo" things. Yet!

I bet scientists are trying to figure out how to reverse time with a reaal-life time machine :strokebeard:

Time does vary, as in bending space also bends time. But to "undo" time is completely different thing that Humans cannot do (unless on psychedelics :grin:)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
    #22480274 - 11/05/15 09:18 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

trendal said:
The future is predetermined...





prove it




Is the past determined?

I say again: time is invariant.




the past has already passed, it's pretty much set in stone, the future is
uncertain so you'll have to prove it's predetermined

tell your employer that time is irrelevant when you show up late every day
and take 2 hour lunches


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: trendal]
    #22480282 - 11/05/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Sorry, what I mean is that in physics time does not have an "arrow" (although it certainly feels as if there is one). Physical actions can be described perfectly in reverse.





well that still means nothing, how about describing what's ahead


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22480294 - 11/05/15 09:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

trendal said:
Sorry, what I mean is that in physics time does not have an "arrow" (although it certainly feels as if there is one). Physical actions can be described perfectly in reverse.





well that still means nothing, how about describing what's ahead




We do that all the time.  Use observations of the past, make theories that describe them, use those theories to predict the future.  The closer in time to the present and the more information we have the better our prediction of the future is.


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InvisibleSirShroomsAlott
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #22480298 - 11/05/15 09:24 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
I just askeed this question in the Philosophy forum myself. How weird.

Good point about the random thoughts!

Whats interesting is u cannot control the random thoughts, but with mediatation practice, u can learn to ignore the thoughts and focus on your breath instead.

I believe humans have partial free will. Things like peer pressure, social influence and the bystander effect for example make free will seem non-existant.

But each of us has our own preference, say for psychoactive drugs. Some people like psychedelics, others dont. Some people like opiates. Others care less, Etc.

Isnt this free will, the choice to choose what we like?

And taste in movies. Isnt that our choice in what movies we like?

does a slave or prisoner not want to escape their shackles?

I believe we start out with partial free will, and over time, we can develop more free will.

Its like its earned thru experience.

I would say stubborn people have the most free will of all.




This is almost exactly how I feel about it, a sort of mix of freewill and a kind of predetermination based on what you've expeienced throughout life


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22480314 - 11/05/15 09:30 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

trendal said:
Sorry, what I mean is that in physics time does not have an "arrow" (although it certainly feels as if there is one). Physical actions can be described perfectly in reverse.





well that still means nothing, how about describing what's ahead




We do that all the time.  Use observations of the past, make theories that describe them, use those theories to predict the future.  The closer in time to the present and the more information we have the better our prediction of the future is.





predictions of the future are frequently vague, inaccurate or wrong


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Do you think we have free will? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22480326 - 11/05/15 09:34 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
well that still means nothing, how about describing what's ahead




I'm having a really hard time remembering the future :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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