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fluffy clouds


Registered: 07/04/14
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Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA?
#22479418 - 11/05/15 04:01 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hey all,
What plants make up Ayahuasca?
Is this Ayahuasca? Mimosa Hostilis + Syrian rue = Ayahuasca (yay or nay?)
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AIRDOG



Registered: 10/16/99
Posts: 3,493
Loc: world's shroom capital
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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: fluffy clouds]
#22479537 - 11/05/15 05:33 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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no... but its called an ayahuasca analogue...
only a brew with caapii can be called properly ayahuasca
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voodoochild1000
psychonautic



Registered: 02/04/15
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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: AIRDOG]
#22480315 - 11/05/15 09:31 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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It works like a champ though...
-------------------- ....."So Great!"....-Me on 1.5mg LSD ...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post
Edited by voodoochild1000 (11/05/15 03:51 PM)
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Sabnock
Be Your Own Shaman


Registered: 01/02/14
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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: voodoochild1000]
#22481066 - 11/05/15 12:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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In my view, it does make it Ayahuasca, but technically Ayahuasca is the B. Caapi vine. I on the other hand, view Ayahuasca as the Harmalas (as i believe that's what causes the Ayahuasca effect) and i while i haven't tried out Caapi yet, Rue has been awesome providing Ayahuasca-like effects due to the Harmalas.
I choose to say Ayahuasca when talking about Rue and Mimosa or Acacia, because to me Ayahuasca is like a broad label that can apply to different plant combinations, plus there's more info under the name Ayahuasca, than say Yage or Daime or Anahuasca.
While Ayahuasca is the Caapi vine, i view Rue as just as important. Rue is a very wonderful plant, just as equally important as Caapi imho.
Even pure Harmalas causes an Ayahuasca effect, though it seems a bit cleaner/clearer than a full spectrum Rue extract.
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s240779

Registered: 12/07/10
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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: Sabnock]
#22481188 - 11/05/15 01:29 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sabnock said: Even pure Harmalas causes an Ayahuasca effect, though it seems a bit cleaner/clearer than a full spectrum Rue extract.
Rue contains chemicals other than the harmalas, you know.
However, it must be emphasized that peganine and deoxypeganine, reportedly present in P. harmala seeds, were for the first time detected in an infusion-like preparation and in the patient’s urine. These two quinazoline alkaloids are reported to cause a pronounced depression of cholinesterase activity in animals, with desoxypeganine showing an anticholinesterase activity being 10 times superior than peganine. In the experiments on anesthetized cats, desoxypeganine eliminated blockade of neuromuscular conductivity induced by diplacine and conversely enhanced blockade induced by ditilin[40]. Their role in producing some of P. harmala intoxication symptoms should be kept in account.
[40] N. Tuliaganov, F.S. Sadritdinov, G.A. Sulemanova, Pharmacological characteristics of desoxypeganine hydrochloride, Farmakol. Toksikol. 49 (1986) 37–40.
Source: Peganum harmala intoxication, a case report. M. Moshiri, et al (2013) Link to download of article at end of post.
Three more case reports on toxic reactions that resulted from rue:
A case of β-carboline alkaloid intoxication following ingestion of Peganum harmala seed extract. Frison G, et al (2008).
Toxicity of Peganum harmala: Review and a Case Report. M. Mahmoudian, et al (2002)
A case of overdose with Peganum harmala L. Ben Salah, N., Amamou, M., Jerbi, Z., Ben Salah, F., Yacoub, M., 1986. J. Toxicol. Clin. Exp. 1986, 319–322.
First three articles above can be downloaded here.
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Sabnock
Be Your Own Shaman


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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: s240779]
#22481271 - 11/05/15 01:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oh i know it contains other compounds, and Rue doesn't in any way feel toxic to me. Just don't use too much, and one will be just fine 
Another thing i like about plant combo's though, you can color of the experience (or medicinal effects) in many ways. I love the potential :P
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Acaterpillar
A little mad...



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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: Sabnock] 1
#22481360 - 11/05/15 02:27 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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It may not feel toxic, but that doesn't mean that it's not. Toxicity doesn't revoke the sacred nature of a plant either though.
Ayahuasca is Banisteriopsis caapi. The Psychotria viridis is not as critical, and there are other Ayahuasca brews that utilize other teacher plants besides the Chacruna (viridis). However, Ayahuasqueros place an emphasis on the necessity of Caapi to make Ayahuasca.
Sure, you can mimic the brew with other harmala containing plants; but the teachers you are working with at that point are different so you may as well as call it something else. No reason to have attachment to a name.
Most people just like being able to say they've done 'Ayahuasca' before, even if they haven't. I could understand referring to a similar brew as Ayahuasca to someone who is ignorant of the chemistry merely for social convenience. Just don't let it become a thing that your ego clings to.
-------------------- Aaa...E I O Uuu...A E I O Uuu..A E I O uh Uuu.. *Cough* *Cough* Ooo...U E I O Aaa...U E I Aaa..A E I O Uuuuu... At first sight, The Perfection of Wisdom is bewildering, full of paradox and apparent irrationality.
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Sabnock
Be Your Own Shaman


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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: Acaterpillar]
#22483236 - 11/05/15 09:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Acaterpillar said: It may not feel toxic, but that doesn't mean that it's not. Toxicity doesn't revoke the sacred nature of a plant either though.
Sure, you can mimic the brew with other harmala containing plants; but the teachers you are working with at that point are different so you may as well as call it something else. No reason to have attachment to a name.
I beg to differ. Rue is not toxic in dosages used. Secondly, Rue is a very sacred plant, and very ancient, and possibly does have ties to middle eastern religions and such (imo). Rue also has quite the awesome Spirit and character, and i'm not denying that Caapi could have a different character to it, but the Harmala alkaloids themselves are what brings about the Spirit of Ayahuasca, ime.
I've had experiences with Syrian Rue that i would've had if i used Caapi, to me, the character of Rue and Caapi may have a different feel (due to other compounds/different ratio of Harmaline to Harmine), but the Spirit flows through both the Caapi and the Rue. Anything Caapi can do, Rue can do too.
To me, Ayahuasca is merely a name, a label, that's it. Yeah it may refer specifically to B. Caapi (Ayahuasca = Vine of the Dead, right?), but i prefer to call anything that can evoke the Ayahuasca spirit, Ayahuasca, and to me the Spirit comes through the Harmalas (whatever the Harmalas do, they do it very well), and yeah you can have different ratios, different compounds that can synergize with it, but the Spirit of Ayahuasca still remains, ime. There are, no doubt, other compounds that come into play and synergize with it to create a certain feel to it, but that's the fun about Ayahuasca, adding different plants to the mix for different purposes.
You can learn just as much from Rue, as you can from Caapi. And while they could be a bit different in character, the Spirit is the same none the less, my friend
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m1ch43l8
Pysconought

Registered: 11/04/15
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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: Sabnock]
#22484822 - 11/06/15 08:07 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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People in the know how won't call it that, I however call it that or people not in the know won't have a fckn clue what i'm talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if it was somewhat toxic i always feel like i'm dying on it so so cold...
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: fluffy clouds]
#22484848 - 11/06/15 08:13 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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At this point, I would say there are multiple definitions.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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Acaterpillar
A little mad...



Registered: 06/09/07
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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: Sabnock]
#22486360 - 11/06/15 02:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Beg to differ on what? It seems we're mostly in agreement. I know Rue is not toxic in dosages for entheogenic use. I'm just saying that perceivable effects from bioassay is no gauge for toxicity. And even if it was toxic, that would not make any implication upon it's sacred nature. It is indeed a sacred plant like caapi.
Quote:
Sabnock said: I've had experiences with Syrian Rue that i would've had if i used Caapi, to me, the character of Rue and Caapi may have a different feel (due to other compounds/different ratio of Harmaline to Harmine), but the Spirit flows through both the Caapi and the Rue. Anything Caapi can do, Rue can do too.
The spirit flows through all things, but Indigenous cultures teach that the spirit of the plant as a whole are what impact the teachings and not the constituents contained.
Rue is not psychoactively equivalent to caapi either. Rue has other alkaloids that interact with the experience. Caapi has it's own unique spectrum of harmalas.
Call it Ayahuasca for social convenience, but traditionally speaking Rue is not Ayahuasca.
-------------------- Aaa...E I O Uuu...A E I O Uuu..A E I O uh Uuu.. *Cough* *Cough* Ooo...U E I O Aaa...U E I Aaa..A E I O Uuuuu... At first sight, The Perfection of Wisdom is bewildering, full of paradox and apparent irrationality.
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Sabnock
Be Your Own Shaman


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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: Acaterpillar]
#22486855 - 11/06/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree. And i know Rue and Caapi both contain different compounds aside from the Harmalas. The thing i like about all of this though, is that Ayahuasca, to me, isn't just one thing, it's a combination/mixture of things, even within one single plant (the compounds within that synergize with each other to cause a certain kind of effect), and there is no single way to use Ayahuasca, there are multiple ways in which it can be used. I admit, i do still have more to learn when it comes to the Spirit of things, i'm still on this path and still learning as i go along, but everything i've experienced so far with Rue, i know it's not Caapi, but i have most certainly felt the Spirit of Aya from full spectrum Rue, perhaps it's the Rue's Spirit, but i feel it's very similar to Caapi's Spirit, if not the same. Sure, like i said, Caapi and Rue both offer their own characters, but for me the Spirit i think is the same.
I do have a pound of yellow Caapi vine though that i will hopefully one day brew up and make a full spectrum extract from, so i can compare Caapi to Rue (in terms of the teachings and spiritual effects, not necessarily the chemical effects).
Quote:
Acaterpillar said:Call it Ayahuasca for social convenience, but traditionally speaking Rue is not Ayahuasca.
And yes, of course, Rue is not "traditional" Ayahuasca, traditional would be Caapi and Chacruna or Chaliponga. I don't have an issue with tradition, i just don't think people should limit themselves to tradition. Yes, the name/label Ayahuasca is good to use so that when people are trying to figure out what you're talking about, they can look up on Ayahuasca and see what all is involved, rather than calling it something like Mimosa Rue or Acacia Rue, or Anahuasca.
Plus, i have a feeling Rue is just as important/sacred as Caapi, i feel that Rue has just as much spiritual potential.
Edited by Sabnock (11/06/15 03:59 PM)
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Acaterpillar
A little mad...



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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: Sabnock]
#22487094 - 11/06/15 04:48 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Actually there are some traditional Ayahuasca brews that do not contain chacruna. It all depends on the ayahuasquero preparing the medicine.
-------------------- Aaa...E I O Uuu...A E I O Uuu..A E I O uh Uuu.. *Cough* *Cough* Ooo...U E I O Aaa...U E I Aaa..A E I O Uuuuu... At first sight, The Perfection of Wisdom is bewildering, full of paradox and apparent irrationality.
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Sabnock
Be Your Own Shaman


Registered: 01/02/14
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Re: Does adding RUE to a DMT plant make it AYA? [Re: Acaterpillar]
#22487170 - 11/06/15 05:02 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Acaterpillar said: Actually there are some traditional Ayahuasca brews that do not contain chacruna. It all depends on the ayahuasquero preparing the medicine.
True, the Caapi vine can even be used by itself, as can Rue 
Or mixing other plants with Caapi or Rue, that do not contain DMT.
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