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InvisiblehTx
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Most Objective Generation Ever? * 1
    #22478339 - 11/04/15 08:56 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

As the advent of googling and smartphones has arisen, I have seen many a debate settled with "Hold up let me google this."

This wasn't possible even just twenty years ago, at-least not as efficiently as now.

What are the implications of this, do you think it has or will have an effect on society in any way?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: hTx]
    #22478413 - 11/04/15 09:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I honestly don't know what it means yet.  Has it gone beyond convenience?  Have any real revolutions been triggered yet?  Is one imminent? All I can say is that I guess AI will have plenty to chew on when it comes online.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleToadstool5
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: hTx]
    #22478500 - 11/04/15 09:42 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What are the implications of this, do you think it has or will have an effect on society in any way?




https://www.google.com/search?q=What+are+the+implications+of+this%2C+do+you+think+it+has+or+will+have+an+effect+on+society+in+any+way%3F&oq=What+are+the+implications+of+this%2C+do+you+think+it+has+or+will+have+an+effect+on+society+in+any+way%3F&aqs

After searching it on google i think you make a very valid point. :lol:

It really has removed a lot of subjectivity but at the same time creates it's own. How much subjective stuff do you see in online news articles, facebook, google, or even here in the shroomery?


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If you do not know where the mushroom products you are consuming are grown, think twice before eating them. :badshroom:
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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: Toadstool5]
    #22478523 - 11/04/15 09:47 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Plenty, however, given enough digging, objectivity can be found easily.

It doesn't take long for a claim to quickly be debunked or debated.


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OfflineHardTrippin
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: hTx]
    #22478596 - 11/04/15 09:59 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It depends on the subject matter. A lot of stuff isn't agreed upon even by experts so a google search won't do much good. Too much opinion parading as fact. I do think overall though google has contributed to fact settling.


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"To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment" - Ralph Waldo Emerson


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OfflineRennHuhn
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: hTx]
    #22479255 - 11/05/15 01:52 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, it changed us. But you forget that many people are completely inept with computers/smartphone/internet. They dont kniw what to trust, or just trust the first thing they read. The rise of ever mire ridiculous conspiracy thoeries is cause by the internet same goes for other fringe polics that seem to get more traction.

The internet transforms us, but how is still unclear. I believes it makes the mediiocre more able, the intelligent more intelligent and powerful. And the dumb even dumber.


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Offlinemy3rdeye
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: RennHuhn]
    #22479270 - 11/05/15 02:12 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I think it is amusing that Guiness book of world records was created to solve bar arguments, which used to turn violent. Now when some blow hard starts spewing BS he can proved wrong in 10 seconds.
Internet is bad for spreading conspiracies though. And bad science like the anti vaxers. In some ways its helping with bringing about an age of ignorance and belief in nonsense.
We have all the books ever written available for free and people spend their time not learning for free, but just looking at nonsense.


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InvisibleKurt
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Registered: 11/26/14
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: hTx]
    #22480748 - 11/05/15 11:31 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

"The world consists in facts, not things"

Wittgenstein; Tractatus, 1921


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: hTx]
    #22480752 - 11/05/15 11:33 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

the most narcissistic generation ever


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Offlineeehoo
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: White Beard]
    #22480790 - 11/05/15 11:42 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Most apathetic and generally uncaring. Socially obsessed and value others more than themselves. They "learn" by nit picking others they see as "bigots" so they can be In this cool kids club. Reddit is a great of example of where these people dwell.

Also, white beard, narcissism is an over used term used by politicians to get people to stop having self interest. There are healthy things that come from being able to look at yourself in a mirror and have self interest. They want people to be sheep and subject themselves to working at McDonald's without looking in a mirror and doing some soul searching, because it throws a wrench in the gears of the system


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Edited by eehoo (11/05/15 11:48 AM)


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: eehoo]
    #22480898 - 11/05/15 12:07 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eehoo said:
Also, white beard, narcissism is an over used term used by politicians to get people to stop having self interest. There are healthy things that come from being able to look at yourself in a mirror and have self interest.




There is a difference between having self-esteem and narcissism. There is a difference between being able to look at yourself in the mirror and taking 5000 selfies with filters/PSing to post on the web to get as many likes as possible. Narcissists tend to have low self-esteem


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: Kurt]
    #22480903 - 11/05/15 12:10 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
"The world consists in facts, not things"

Wittgenstein; Tractatus, 1921




a pragmatist might argue, that facts are only valid insofar as they are useful..

and google is super useful in helping you do things..

i learnt my entire job through googling, and my replacement said he had done the exact same.

google is like having morpheus on the other end of the line, telling you when to move and where..

in conclusion, google is great and we will be able to do many more things if we are good at following instructions, these are new skills humans will need to become good at while old skills like 'memorising shit' are redundant and that part of our brain will shrivel up and die

:sadyes:


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dripping with fantasy


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Offlineeehoo
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: White Beard]
    #22480920 - 11/05/15 12:15 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

eehoo said:
Also, white beard, narcissism is an over used term used by politicians to get people to stop having self interest. There are healthy things that come from being able to look at yourself in a mirror and have self interest.




There is a difference between having self-esteem and narcissism. There is a difference between being able to look at yourself in the mirror and taking 5000 selfies with filters/PSing to post on the web to get as many likes as possible. Narcissists tend to have low self-esteem



Lol oh okay yeah I can relate to what you're saying there. There are definitely huge self esteem and identity issues with newest generations


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Edited by eehoo (11/05/15 12:16 PM)


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: White Beard]
    #22480927 - 11/05/15 12:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

i'll be your mirror :ohwell:



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Offlineeehoo
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: quinn]
    #22480942 - 11/05/15 12:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
Quote:

Kurt said:
"The world consists in facts, not things"

Wittgenstein; Tractatus, 1921




these are new skills humans will need to become good at while old skills like 'memorising shit' are redundant and that part of our brain will shrivel up and die

:sadyes:




What are these new skills you speak of


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: eehoo]
    #22480969 - 11/05/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

googling! lol

searching the web for stuff. being efficient, filtering out useless information, being able to follow instructions.

knowing when googling will and wont be useful.

it's not actually that easy especially for older generations who arent familiar with it..

and just general tech literacy, using email and word and excel effectively...



now question for you and whitebeard:
why do you think the new generations have identity and narcisism issues? cos they take selfies??


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InvisibleToadstool5
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: quinn]
    #22481189 - 11/05/15 01:29 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

google is like having morpheus on the other end of the line, telling you when to move and where..




:lmafo: this made my day!!!!

The internet can teach you almost anything. I got an internship in an organic chem lab when i was younger because of google, learnt how to garden and grow mushrooms from google, i can do many small engine repairs thanks to google, and my current job as a contractor was given to me because of my reliability and ability to efficiently use my android mini on the job site to communicate all necessary details to my boss in texas.

Thanks to the internet I don't need to pay a professor to tell me which books to read AND i can work for companies all over the world :shrug:

Quote:

why do you think the new generations have identity and narcisism issues? cos they take selfies??




Not all of us take selfies. I have tried almost my entire life to avoid photos all together :lol:

I will agree most of our generation has identity issues and many of the social media users (young or old) are narcissistic as all holy hell.

With the economy tanked we have no confidence and therefore feel lost and worried about how certain our future is or even who we are any more. Social media is filled with sociopaths who use technology to up their game in using people to inflate themselves. My sister solely uses facebook for this reason and has about 5 different profiles :facepalm:


--------------------
If you do not know where the mushroom products you are consuming are grown, think twice before eating them. :badshroom:
- Paul Stamets

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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: quinn]
    #22481373 - 11/05/15 02:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
now question for you and whitebeard:
why do you think the new generations have identity and narcisism issues? cos they take selfies??




social media in general. We now can easily compare one another based on how many friends you have, how attractive you are, how many likes your photos get, how many social events you're tagged in, your relationship status, your work and education, etc. Nothing is private anymore and people feel compelled to share everything about their lives with the internet to get validation cause that's what everyone is doing, regardless of consequences.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: White Beard]
    #22481575 - 11/05/15 03:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I think we need SOME KIND of quality control... there are pages and forums to support almost any viewpoint, pathological or not.


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Offlineeehoo
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: circastes]
    #22481714 - 11/05/15 04:10 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
I think we need SOME KIND of quality control... there are pages and forums to support almost any viewpoint, pathological or not.




do you realize the implications of this statement? or do you rarely look at yourself?


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Most Objective Generation Ever? [Re: quinn]
    #22481871 - 11/05/15 04:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
Quote:

Kurt said:
"The world consists in facts, not things"

Wittgenstein; Tractatus, 1921




a pragmatist might argue, that facts are only valid insofar as they are useful..

and google is super useful in helping you do things..

i learnt my entire job through googling, and my replacement said he had done the exact same.

google is like having morpheus on the other end of the line, telling you when to move and where..

in conclusion, google is great and we will be able to do many more things if we are good at following instructions, these are new skills humans will need to become good at while old skills like 'memorising shit' are redundant and that part of our brain will shrivel up and die

:sadyes:




Modern philosophers are so fun aren't they? The pragmatists seem to usually be on point to me.

I think it is also a complex expression though too, especially if you lay it out a bit. The baseline for pragmatists today seems to mainly be in a response and somewhat of a reaction, and sometimes a disclaimer perhaps, to a turn in philosophy towards a convention of symbolic-linguistic or "analytic" philosophy in the 20th century.

As a pragmatist, you could say a theory is not taken in virtue of its mirroring of the natural world, but according instead to how it is useful to us. But I think the interesting question is it  additional criteria, or qualification for what stands as a true, or factual, or is it a critique? I would first observe that there is some possible conflict, in general which doesn't lend itself either to any automatic skepticism or idealism. But suffice to say I think usefulness as criteria for consideration is somewhat at stake for the ideal value of truth with a capital T at the same time it qualifies this. I think this complex statement of pragmatism reflects the unfolding of contemporary philosophy.

If anything has changed since Wittgenstein first came on the scene, still today and all the more, ae live in a symbolic world of facts. It is the same sentiment and aesthetic, but like butter stretched a little thinner on our bread. How you ground a theory is not the question or issue today though even; how you hang them in the air of conjecture of a human "community" is what is basic. What is interesting, is we look out and out into the universe. While it is very easy to reconcile that community of discourse in individual terms (that scientific community tells you in a very useful way "to look before you leap", and that is pragmatic modeling of the natural world) but for instance, in capacity as a community, or in the way we arrive at such distinctions, a set of ascribed values as a whole, that is where things are stretched thin. It is politics mainly, a social structure.

A fact could be defined in its most substantive sense today, as something to do with the natural world. Yet that is technically determined as a projected linguistic argument that is to be possibly falsified by a community's conjecture, and maintained that way. Do we constantly enunciate arguments to perceive the world? We do indeed largely dwell in a way of reflecting on propositions, as opposed to say phenomenology. This was Wittgenstein's suggestion, facts and their conjectures, not things. It seems epistemology, analysis of beliefs, was in a way made implied in our modern world.

That sentiment for analyzing beliefs stands of course, but in a certain way to be clarified I think. Epistemology was a virtue in a sense to Plato, and yet what I observe today as such virtue, is not so much a discussion of analysis of beliefs and what we can know, but the conventionality wherein this is implicit expressed differently. Epistemology, truth or falsity is like a modern scientific oeoples moral code. It is good and evil. Of course we have a discussion about knowledge and what it is possible to know, but epistemologists and philosophers of science (actual discussion and enquiry into what method itself is) are not sought by science, but rather what is more easy to find being two sided, a discussion between the technition and lay people, or the sound minded and droves of idiots as some moral crisis of education in America's bible belt. One cannot question method in other words, without being ready to meet the pointed finger, that anyone who do not take part in the standard etiquette of this convention and community, must be some kind of anti-intellectual.

What stands as science, as an institution and economy of progress, seeks not a discussion of epistemelogy, but to find patronship in mass pop culture phenomenon, and the leveling to politics. That is the economy of epistemological, or believe and knowledge based discussion. It is conventional, real, and the broad moral sentiment of a modern people, above all. It is the virtue that got so formalized and ritualized that it doesn't even have anything to do with the virtues it came from (namely naturalism, rather than technical power over nature and all things). Scientific achievement, is the automatic progress of a culture following a liberal institution and certain economy of production and consumption.


This is all basically to say, to qualify truth as something useful, I think is difficult, when truth always was clearly found in usefulness, rather than any ideal of naturalism.

The conventionality of a community and discourse which we dwell in can be clarified in that it does not suggest any particular theory, but in general, the way methodological assumptions reflect cosmological assumptions. For example, what is proposed as straight forwardness and intellectual sincerity in method in one way as a moral, is what is being proposed at once as conventional, straight-forward and automatically assured also, in a metaphysical sense, as a mechanism (like the way viewing and ideally predicting physical phenomena on a cartesian coordinate system, according to mathematical calculation, determines physical reality). This goes back to Descartes, and it works, even though this aperture into an external gridded or dimensional world is assertional, on some rather speculative assumptions, which I think it is often naively supposed that we "balance" with doubt. The point of place of the cartesian ego, or consciousness becomes the inspiration for Kant's synthetic analytic cleavage, which binds physics in such dimensions of space time, these matrices of determinate physical phenomena.

Now again we can definitely say that this was always something useful. Or better put, clearly what goes back to the Baconian idea of mechanism which we seek in everything physical, is useful in respect to us, and paradigmatically truthful as knowledge, but mainly no doubt a projection of will to power over things. Knowledge is power, or it is useful.

It is interesting that the main throwback to values of knowledge which go to Cartesianism as his method of doubt (or rather following this in consistency to arrive at what is uncountable as the ego) stands in itself a highly unreconciled theory. No doubt there was a reason the problem was banished in the split against phenomenologists, and linguistic philosophers. The ego or mind or consciousness is what according to its own advocation, is not what is not possible to doubt, today, but in an equivocal way, what is most doubtful, both in broad values as well as in the way paradigms move in revolution of their own structures. To think of Cartesian skepticism seriously, as something perhaps broadly mistaken, is a discussion that nobody can quite seem to deal with.

The overall epistemological presumption which Descartes himself established was as of an external world of mechanism, (with at least a few respective assumptions; mainly ego and how it is situated). It stands to reason that this is how methodology reflects cosmology. We look for mechanism in nature. We project this because we are not human beings just with a formal capacity, as well like to think (either as spirit or brain power) but tactile opposable thumbs, tool bearing animals. No doubt this idea of nature as determinant mechanism is a projection, but as we say, it is what "works". It is useful and usefulness is basic, so we could just as well (as we have for the majority of modern existence) call this universalism.

The sum of it, is that the materialism which was once realistic or naturalized in Aristotle, suggested as a form of skepticism in Descartes, is now unconsciously and in a certain way very uncritically idealized to the extent that it is like a platonic realm of forms, a realm of theory hanging in the air, both conventional and real, in a world which we engage in formal language and theory. This dialogue on symbolic analysis is supposed to evoke and cleave to physical phenomena, but we look to words and ideas, no different than Platonic forms according to the sentiments which were most against metaphysics.

So to the point, I am pretty sure that we remain in the turn towards symbol (which is to say the challenge to argument or propositions) and to advise in how we find this useful in a novel sense, as the pragmatists suppose, is in respect to something both conventional and real as modernity.

When I hear an appeal to pragmatism, I wonder if this means this person is appealing to an immediate sense of usefulness, assembly line productivity and state of consciousness or "philosophy" that goes along with that. In other words something useful could be called the universalism, and the demand to be constructive and progress in the pursuit of truth quite easily. In other words we will continue to think of nature itself in this way easily enough under these auspice, because humankind is very self centered even and especially when it is objectifying things. Of course truth will be what we will above all be inclined to call useful in modernity, and vice versa; as usefulness will be called truth, and for most people this will be basically circular without any clarity.

On the other hand I think pragmatists are actually providing an interruption in the status quo. If you think that truth was always both conventional and real, what is the response to this? I believe some modern American pragmatists may be cognizant, or aware of utility, such that they may not be immediately or necessarily delivered over to it as so many people compulsively are. To be aware of pragmatic utility, could be to halt the compulsion of it.

As to this generation in general, the generation of the internet and social media and smart phones, there has been such leaps in technological advancement, and I believe understanding what is going on, is to find how it is built or (rather spontaneously and compulsive produced) on these modern values. Whatever "foundation" it offers (as Descartes spoke of) if any at all, modernity has offered, is what is at issue. Descartes foundations were the ego or consciousness, that which could not be doubted (and what in the people who accept this theory most, most highly doubt.) It is a general orientation of materialism in a broad sense.

Objectivity is conventional and real at the same time. It is a positioning of presence, not as the solid basis or foundation, but perpetually and compulsively stimulated and evoked reality, in a stream that is supposed as constant this presenting. To quote the I Ching though, "constantly stimulated is not constancy"

Do you jump in, or do you wonder if it is just preferred stimulations that evokes something real? Maybe it is not so much what this generation is, the mass of it, the deep of "information" (which more and more young idealists speculate upon) but what is all the more distinguished from that mass cavern, of human phenomenona. That is what will "stand out". I think it is time to say no to alot of this, and that is what I am doing. Maybe I am getting a little stodgy.

Oh back in my day Plato described the same thing as the Matrix without all that techno...


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