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Psilosoulful

Registered: 09/05/14
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Oat prep quick question
#22477953 - 11/04/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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What's up guys, I'm using whole oats for the first time and had a question about how the outside of the oats or hull should feel before loading up my jars. I did a 24 hour cold water soak, drained, then covered with boiling water for 30 seconds to fully hydrate the oats.
I'm thinking about just going for a 45 minute boil like most people do, because the outside of the oats still feels hardened and I'm not sure that enough moisture is contained within the oats. I don't want them to dry out on me during colonization, that'll be such a waste.
Here's a loaded jar before PC'ing, how does it look?

When I go to squeeze the oat, it doesn't break apart easy, but the inside is still really mushy. Working with WBS was easier because i could always tell when it was fully hydrated, with oats I have no idea 
Edited by Psilosoulful (11/04/15 07:50 PM)
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
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Sounds and looks good to me lol
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Psilosoulful

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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: Mad Season]
#22478188 - 11/04/15 08:18 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Okay cool, I just wanted to make sure I was doing it right. I was following Inocuole's tek btw.
I didn't realize that the outside of the shell would still be soo hard to break apart even after dumping the boiling water in.
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iSmkGrnBud
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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: Mad Season]
#22478218 - 11/04/15 08:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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They look pretty sweet to me. 
I'm currently working on my first round of oats as well. I'm excited to see how they go. Everything you read about oats is so damn positive. 
Here's some a2g I did last night. I had a little bit of burst oats. 
-------------------- iSmkGrnBud's Teks iSmkGrnBud's Wild Mushroom Finds  The Noob Forum's List of Teks “The probability of success is difficult to estimate; but if we never search the chance of success is zero.” -Giuseppe Cocconi
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Psilosoulful

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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: iSmkGrnBud]
#22478235 - 11/04/15 08:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks man 
I can't wait to get these jars PC'd and ready to go. I have some pan cyan agar that I want to take some nice wedges from! 
Nice jars, what variety are you growin'?
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iSmkGrnBud
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Quote:
Psilosoulful said: Nice jars, what variety are you growin'?
I've got a few going. Some TC, syzygy, costa rican all from spore>agar transferred a couple times. Not sure of any genetics yet 
What you thinking for your bad boys?
-------------------- iSmkGrnBud's Teks iSmkGrnBud's Wild Mushroom Finds  The Noob Forum's List of Teks “The probability of success is difficult to estimate; but if we never search the chance of success is zero.” -Giuseppe Cocconi
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Psilosoulful

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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: iSmkGrnBud]
#22478354 - 11/04/15 08:59 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
iSmkGrnBud said:
Quote:
Psilosoulful said: Nice jars, what variety are you growin'?
I've got a few going. Some TC, syzygy, costa rican all from spore>agar transferred a couple times. Not sure of any genetics yet 
What you thinking for your bad boys?
Nice I'm thinking about doing a couple of small trays in my SGFC for my first round. Then maybe I'll try a mini mono and see how that works out. Soo many options!!
I can't wait for my first fruits tho, most of my cube grows have been pretty weak (all MS). I took a break for a while and I recently started grown again. I figured why not try my hand at pans, I mean, 1 dry gram is all you need to have a full blown trip with lots of visuals. There's no need for isolating/cloning since the genetics are relatively consistent, which is a major plus.
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FreeWorldOrder

Registered: 12/24/13
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They look pretty typical.
The grains should be plump but not exploded.
It's good that the inside is soft.
Also the grain itself will take on a somewhat clear, translucent look.
I love using whole oats. The hulls seem to help keep them from bursting.
They are clean and generally super easy to work with!
-------------------- "They who can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin Lets Grow Mushrooms Videos PastyWhyte's Easy Agar TEK Agar's Liquid Inoculant TEK
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azur
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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: iSmkGrnBud]
#22481454 - 11/05/15 02:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
iSmkGrnBud said:

They look pretty sweet to me. 
I'm currently working on my first round of oats as well. I'm excited to see how they go. Everything you read about oats is so damn positive. 
Here's some a2g I did last night. I had a little bit of burst oats. 

Yours look perfect. OP's look good, but could hold more water. I always get a few burst grains. Either some will burst and most will be plump as fuck. Or some will be too dry and most could stand a tad more. I choose the former
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Psilosoulful

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Okay cool, so basically the hulls on the outside should be very soft before PC'ing and when you check the inside it should be squishy.
I only did that 24 hour soak and boiled for 5 minutes, not sure if that was enough. I've heard most people just dump the oats in a pot and boil for 45 minutes, then dry, and load up their jars. I'm starting to think the soak was unnecessary..
Anyway here's what my jars are looking like now:
The middle pic was held under a lamp obviously lol
I turned off the PC last night and it's been cooling off all day. I'm gonna transfer some agar wedges to the jars tonight!
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azur
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Next time boil longer. They are fine, but could hold more water. The 24 hour soak doesn't add moisture. It's to germinate any present bacterial endospores so the pc can kill them
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Psilosoulful

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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: azur]
#22481669 - 11/05/15 03:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
azur said: The 24 hour soak doesn't add moisture. It's to germinate any present bacterial endospores so the pc can kill them
That's what I figured, same thing with WBS too. Next time I'll be sure to boil longer and then check the inside of the grain to see if it's properly hydrated. I just wish there was more detailed pics to show exactly what the inside is supposed to look like, so I'm not just guessing.
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Mad Season
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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: azur]
#22481676 - 11/05/15 03:58 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
clostridum butyricum from brewers grain(rye malt) it's very heat resistant because of the spores. it is responsible for the most part in the rancid smell if you let grains soak too long. it will survive the boil and is why your grains go bad and smell like puke and Greek feet feta if you don't sterilize them after your grain prep.
it forms endospores even culture on anaerobic plates with an abidance of nutrients. as you can see some subset of the population finds it appropriate to form endospores despite not having "bad conditions" as conditions get worse spore formation goes up. I would be nearly positive you end up with more endospores if you do a soak than if you skip a soak, either way these DO get killed by a PC in a sufficient cycle.
I know TMC says soaking germinates endospores, but it's their defense mechanism. As bod shows, it will form endospores even in anaerobic places. That's why upping PC times is the best way to kill endospores. Soaking is more of a preference these days. Personally I don't soak.
The best shit in TMC is when they write about how 15 psi at 60 mins isn't enough when endospores are present.. Everyone seems to have forgotten that one.
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Psilosoulful

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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: Mad Season]
#22481720 - 11/05/15 04:12 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
clostridum butyricum from brewers grain(rye malt) it's very heat resistant because of the spores. it is responsible for the most part in the rancid smell if you let grains soak too long. it will survive the boil and is why your grains go bad and smell like puke and Greek feet feta if you don't sterilize them after your grain prep.
it forms endospores even culture on anaerobic plates with an abidance of nutrients. as you can see some subset of the population finds it appropriate to form endospores despite not having "bad conditions" as conditions get worse spore formation goes up. I would be nearly positive you end up with more endospores if you do a soak than if you skip a soak, either way these DO get killed by a PC in a sufficient cycle.
I know TMC says soaking germinates endospores, but it's their defense mechanism. As bod shows, it will form endospores even in anaerobic places. That's why upping PC times is the best way to kill endospores. Soaking is more of a preference these days. Personally I don't soak.
The best shit in TMC is when they write about how 15 psi at 60 mins isn't enough when endospores are present.. Everyone seems to have forgotten that one. 
I PC'd for 2 hours at 15 psi, that should be enough time to kill all the endospores, even if I didn't soak, right?
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azur
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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: Mad Season]
#22481737 - 11/05/15 04:15 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
clostridum butyricum from brewers grain(rye malt) it's very heat resistant because of the spores. it is responsible for the most part in the rancid smell if you let grains soak too long. it will survive the boil and is why your grains go bad and smell like puke and Greek feet feta if you don't sterilize them after your grain prep.
it forms endospores even culture on anaerobic plates with an abidance of nutrients. as you can see some subset of the population finds it appropriate to form endospores despite not having "bad conditions" as conditions get worse spore formation goes up. I would be nearly positive you end up with more endospores if you do a soak than if you skip a soak, either way these DO get killed by a PC in a sufficient cycle.
I know TMC says soaking germinates endospores, but it's their defense mechanism. As bod shows, it will form endospores even in anaerobic places. That's why upping PC times is the best way to kill endospores. Soaking is more of a preference these days. Personally I don't soak.
The best shit in TMC is when they write about how 15 psi at 60 mins isn't enough when endospores are present.. Everyone seems to have forgotten that one. 
I beg to differ. Busy at the moment but will respond later
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Mad Season
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Kinda doubt it lol. But it should slow shit down long enough for things to colonize it before they germinate.
I'm not even sure 25 psi does it. I do 23@2hours and can see bacteria after a cpl months or so. TMC says 27 for 1 hour. I kinda doubt it would work tho lol
@az do it
Edited by Mad Season (11/05/15 04:20 PM)
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Psilosoulful

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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: Mad Season]
#22481771 - 11/05/15 04:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's not bad tho. Just as long as the mycelium has a chance to colonize the center of the grains completely, then it'll be hard for endospores and other contams to take over, since each individual grain will have a much stronger resistance to them at that point.
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Psilosoulful

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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: azur]
#22485296 - 11/06/15 10:13 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
azur said:
Quote:
Mad Season said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
clostridum butyricum from brewers grain(rye malt) it's very heat resistant because of the spores. it is responsible for the most part in the rancid smell if you let grains soak too long. it will survive the boil and is why your grains go bad and smell like puke and Greek feet feta if you don't sterilize them after your grain prep.
it forms endospores even culture on anaerobic plates with an abidance of nutrients. as you can see some subset of the population finds it appropriate to form endospores despite not having "bad conditions" as conditions get worse spore formation goes up. I would be nearly positive you end up with more endospores if you do a soak than if you skip a soak, either way these DO get killed by a PC in a sufficient cycle.
I know TMC says soaking germinates endospores, but it's their defense mechanism. As bod shows, it will form endospores even in anaerobic places. That's why upping PC times is the best way to kill endospores. Soaking is more of a preference these days. Personally I don't soak.
The best shit in TMC is when they write about how 15 psi at 60 mins isn't enough when endospores are present.. Everyone seems to have forgotten that one. 
I beg to differ. Busy at the moment but will respond later
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azur
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Bacterial endospores are formed when cells find themselves in such extreme conditions that they are in peril of dying. In order to survive harsh conditions the cell prepares and endospore where it packs everything needed to survive until conditions improve. When a bacterial cell is thriving and life is good, it is called a vegetative cell. This is the normal condition most cells find themselves in.
However, bacteria like Bacillus and Clostridium have the ability to form a spore just before they die off, that will allow them to resume life or become a vegetative cell again if conditions improve. These bacteria are commonly found in the soil which is about as harsh an evnironment as there is. It could be too hot or too cold or just too dry to support a living cell. An endospore however, can live in the soil for decades waiting for the right conditions to allow the cell to be reborn and reproduce again.
Unlike mold spores where the idea is to reproduce, (so many, many spores are made) bacteria only produce a single endospore. It is a survival mechanism not a reproductive method.
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Mad Season
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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: azur]
#22486064 - 11/06/15 01:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think the point is that as they multiply.. some(not a lot of) parent cells are programmed to turn into endospores. And they will always have endospores. Albeit much lower populations if they're in anaerobic conditions, than say if they were put into soil..
Can you find me evidence that a common endospore forming bacteria has absolutely zero endospores in anaerobic conditions? Because I provided evidence they were forming endospores in anaerobic conditions
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azur
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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: Mad Season]
#22486199 - 11/06/15 01:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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You provided no evidence.
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Srirachi
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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: Mad Season]
#22486217 - 11/06/15 01:45 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Aerobic/anaerobic isn't as much a factor as nutes/no nutes in forming endospores... and, it takes several hours for endospores to form. They activate in minutes once favorable conditions return... so I'm inclined to believe azur is right.
What you're seeing in Bod's pic there is proof that there are low nutes in the slide. The presence or lack of O2 isn't the determining factor there IMO.
I used to not soak oats, and started having problems with a particular batch, that were eliminated by a presoak of about 12 hours. I've soaked grain as long as 36 hours, until it looked like it was boiling from all the fermentation going on, and those grains worked just fine with a 90 min. run at whatever 2 quarters on top of my PC weight equals.
When endospore counts in grain are average, the hydration probably activates enough of them to get the grain 'sterile enough'. When it's higher, not so much.
Based on my experience with thousands of pounds of oats, the technique I use now is this:
Soak 8 quarts of dry oats in 3 gallons of water and 1/2c. gypsum for 12-24 hrs.
In the same water, boil the oats for 22-24 minutes and dump into straining device.
Strain for 10 min, load bags and PC for 2.5 to 3 hrs. depending on how packed the PC is.
For jars I only PC for 90 min. As I mentioned my PC is rigged to go over 15PSI, probably not much though. I think it's around 17PSI based on the safety plug rating.
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Kalistis


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 2,265
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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: Srirachi]
#22486897 - 11/06/15 04:04 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I would be happy to look for endospores in my next batch of oats after boil and after PC. But I usually don't soak, just boil. I could run one batch of soaked oats just for shits and giggles too following same QC protocol.
I don't enjoy soaking. But I will if I must, in the name of science.
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Psilosoulful

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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: Srirachi]
#22487005 - 11/06/15 04:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Srirachi said:
Based on my experience with thousands of pounds of oats, the technique I use now is this:
Soak 8 quarts of dry oats in 3 gallons of water and 1/2c. gypsum for 12-24 hrs.
In the same water, boil the oats for 22-24 minutes and dump into straining device.
Strain for 10 min, load bags and PC for 2.5 to 3 hrs. depending on how packed the PC is.
For jars I only PC for 90 min. As I mentioned my PC is rigged to go over 15PSI, probably not much though. I think it's around 17PSI based on the safety plug rating.
 I've heard that a 45 minute boil is best to hydrate the center of the grains fully. How do you know when your grains are done? I never really know what to look for
Edited by Psilosoulful (11/06/15 05:15 PM)
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
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Yeah.. Definitely going to try soaking again, and see what my results are. Seriously this hobby is so back and forth lolol..
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azur
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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: Mad Season]
#22487198 - 11/06/15 05:09 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said: Yeah.. Definitely going to try soaking again, and see what my results are. Seriously this hobby is so back and forth lolol..
Ha ha
Kalistis, why do you hate to soak? It takes 2 min and adds no wait when you're on a cycle.
You're not soaking to hydrate. We just covered this. Another poster put up a pic of oats. That's what they should look like.
Recap. Though usually soaking may not be necessary, it's a good precaution if you get a batch of grain that has a high bacterial endospore count. And you won't know if it does until it fucks you. So put the rubber on and be safe.
Ha ha. I don't wear rubbers, but i soak grain.
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azur
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Psilosoulful,this was meant for you. You're not soaking to hydrate. We just covered this. Another poster put up a pic of oats. That's what they should look like.
Here are a few pics i took yesterday
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Psilosoulful

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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: azur]
#22487248 - 11/06/15 05:18 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
azur said: You're not soaking to hydrate. We just covered this. Another poster put up a pic of oats. That's what they should look like.
I know, I edited my last post. 
Quote:
azur said: So put the rubber on and be safe.
Ha ha. I don't wear rubbers, but i soak grain.
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Kalistis


Registered: 09/06/15
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I get why we soak. I guess My first 2 runs of oats went so well without soaking that I have a hard time adding in another step. My firs jars were WBS and I soaked for 18 hours. They stunk! I think it left a bad smell in my nose and taste in my mouth. The jars also performed well.
So if I have issues with my grains then I consider my process and wonder what I can improve on... I'm not saying you are wrong. Just that oats are really forgiving.
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Edited by Kalistis (11/06/15 06:14 PM)
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LocN9ne
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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: Kalistis]
#22487580 - 11/06/15 06:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I soak, purely because I add gypsum and coffee.
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Q&A US vs. THEM The more I learn, the less I know.
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Kalistis


Registered: 09/06/15
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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: LocN9ne]
#22487691 - 11/06/15 06:37 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I add gypsum during boil. No coffee. Sounds tasty though.
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LocN9ne
ɢᄋᄋd ԲᄋЯ ᄁᄋȚᅢΙᄁɢ ᄂᄋ₩ᄂΙԲᄐ



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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: Kalistis]
#22487742 - 11/06/15 06:47 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kalistis said: I add gypsum during boil. No coffee. Sounds tasty though.
It's strangely satisfying to use coffee from a spent French press full of grounds... I guess it's a feeling of pride in finding another productive use of what normally is considered a waste product.
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Q&A US vs. THEM The more I learn, the less I know.
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Psilosoulful

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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: LocN9ne]
#22489432 - 11/07/15 07:38 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
LocN9ne said:
Quote:
Kalistis said: I add gypsum during boil. No coffee. Sounds tasty though.
It's strangely satisfying to use coffee from a spent French press full of grounds... I guess it's a feeling of pride in finding another productive use of what normally is considered a waste product.
That's soo true tho  Do you add like half a cup per batch? I'm sure adding a couple of cups won't be a problem, as it would just be extra nutrients for the grains to absorb during boiling.
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iSmkGrnBud
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I usually add in about 3-5 cups of brewed coffee when I soak, but I tend to soak a lot of grains at once. Just make sure if you're adding coffee made from spent grounds. Unless properly pasteurized, fresh coffee grounds have a chance of bringing in nasty molds, why it's always easier to just use spent grounds.
-------------------- iSmkGrnBud's Teks iSmkGrnBud's Wild Mushroom Finds  The Noob Forum's List of Teks “The probability of success is difficult to estimate; but if we never search the chance of success is zero.” -Giuseppe Cocconi
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Psilosoulful

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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: iSmkGrnBud]
#22490004 - 11/07/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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 Do you squeeze out the spent coffee grounds at all before adding it? I've heard people bringing it to field capacity first, and others say it should be dried out for a couple of days.
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iSmkGrnBud
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Quote:
Psilosoulful said:
 Do you squeeze out the spent coffee grounds at all before adding it? I've heard people bringing it to field capacity first, and others say it should be dried out for a couple of days.
I usually will just use the actual liquid coffee in with my soak, hence the 3-5 cups. The brew pretty much starts pasteurizing/sterilizing the grounds for you, that's why you always use spent grounds. I just personally don't like to use actual grounds, they don't always rinse off and make your jars look dirty. Coffee/grounds should both have desired nitrogen levels.
-------------------- iSmkGrnBud's Teks iSmkGrnBud's Wild Mushroom Finds  The Noob Forum's List of Teks “The probability of success is difficult to estimate; but if we never search the chance of success is zero.” -Giuseppe Cocconi
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Psilosoulful

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Re: Oat prep quick question [Re: iSmkGrnBud]
#22490145 - 11/07/15 10:43 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
iSmkGrnBud said:
Quote:
Psilosoulful said:
 Do you squeeze out the spent coffee grounds at all before adding it? I've heard people bringing it to field capacity first, and others say it should be dried out for a couple of days.
I usually will just use the actual liquid coffee in with my soak, hence the 3-5 cups. The brew pretty much starts pasteurizing/sterilizing the grounds for you, that's why you always use spent grounds. I just personally don't like to use actual grounds, they don't always rinse off and make your jars look dirty. Coffee/grounds should both have desired nitrogen levels.
Cool maybe I'll brew some coffee right now and pour in a couple of cups. I'm soaking oats right now that I'll be boiling later on tonight. I think a 12 hour soak should be sufficient.
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FreeWorldOrder

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I've "re-ran" spent grains and used the weak coffee water....
Not sure how full strength coffee would work. I've read on here to use diluted.
Would be interesting to see how it works.
-------------------- "They who can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin Lets Grow Mushrooms Videos PastyWhyte's Easy Agar TEK Agar's Liquid Inoculant TEK
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iSmkGrnBud
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Last seen: 11 days, 2 hours
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I usually will reuse my grounds from my coffee in the morning. If you're using fresh grounds, make it extremely extremely weak.
-------------------- iSmkGrnBud's Teks iSmkGrnBud's Wild Mushroom Finds  The Noob Forum's List of Teks “The probability of success is difficult to estimate; but if we never search the chance of success is zero.” -Giuseppe Cocconi
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