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OfflineShizpow
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2247724 - 01/17/04 02:29 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

The answer can be summed up in one simple phrase. "The path of least resistance." Our technology is fantastic, but it's exactly this technology that's allowed people to behave as they do. As we evolved, life was hard. If you were stupid, more often than not, you got your dumb ass killed young. So intelligence was selected for and we got smarter. Now here we are in a time when we are so advanced that we can take care of literally anyone and everyone, and keep them from doing stupid things and getting themselves killed off. Suddenly, it takes a whole lot more stupid to get your dumb ass killed, so intelligence is not being selected for. We've plateaued. We live in a society that allows its citizens to be stupid and lazy, and as I said, the majority of people will follow the path of least resistance and be stupid if they can. There's just no punishment in modern society for being stupid anymore, so the stupid flourish. That's the problem with nurturing every fucking weed in the garden...you make it harder for the flowers to grow.


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If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2248230 - 01/17/04 11:43 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)


Why are the majority of people dumb?

How well do you know the majority of people?

Why is the bookworm picked on in Junior High?

Which bookworm you talking about the healthy social bookworms or the nuerotic anemic bookworms?

Why are computer nerds ostrasized when digital technology is becoming an increasingly integral part of our lives?

Nerds are nerds.

How come every time I check a book out from the library the previous due date was in 1996?

You are taking out the wrong books, this happen to me too.

Why is MTV even in existance?

Who cares?

Why does Egdar Simpleton brag about how he barely passed high school in his drunken swagger?

He's drunk.

Why is the gen pop mathematically and scientifically illiterate?

The metric system.

Why does the intelligent quiet kid always have trouble fitting in to society?

He's shy.

I think it is defensiveness on both sides of a relationship that masks peoples abilities. Also people are lazy the less you seem to know the less you'll be called upon to do.

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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2248234 - 01/17/04 11:45 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Why are the majority of people of the SJ/SP personality types (about 85%)?

I've often wondered: is there a connection?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: trendal]
    #2248253 - 01/17/04 11:57 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

good answer shizpow.
id agree that the value of intellegence and knowledge in our species (in our culture rather) has reached a plateu. The information of the ages is now electronically stored and available for all. But that means that only the select few who need it or desire it will seek it out, it is there for those who may want it, but the society in which we live gives no real incentive to want it. Why does MTV exist? good question. we are a pleasure seeking animal. We by our nature strive to avoid discomfort and seek out pleasure. (M)TV is instant gratification. This is simplistic, but if you put a rat in a cage and give it two levers, one that dispenses a handjob or a mcdonalds fry and one that dispenses a page of plato, what do you think its going to press on more?

We are now a communal organism, and the knowledge of the individuals has been incorporated into society in such a way that individual knowledge is no longer nescessary, as our current level of techology is more than enough to gaurantee us satisfaction and comfort.

PS. Knowledge is power, but is power truly good? the most brilliant physicists in the world spent years developing the atom bomb. After the initial, flawless test the lead researcher said "i have become death, the destroyer of worlds"

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Anonymous

Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: trendal]
    #2248256 - 01/17/04 11:58 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2248265 - 01/17/04 12:03 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
  Ever seen "Saved by the Bell?"  Screech is a perfect example.  He was a genius and was ragged on constantly for it.




Often times, the case in these scenarios is that other's feel threatened by the other's genius-intellect, and make themselves feel better by putting them down for it. This is all largely subconscious mind you.

A detailed explanation of this can be demonstrated in what is called the "Jonah Complex" which I posted long ago, but I'll post it here again :smile:.

THE JONAH COMPLEX

I would like to turn to one of the many reasons for what Angyal (4) called the evasion of growth. We have, all of us, an impulse to improve ourselves, an impulse toward actualizing more of our potentialities, toward self-actualization, or full humanness or human fulfillment, or whatever term you like. Granted this, then what holds us up? what blocks us?
One such defense against growth that I'd like to speak about specially because it hasn't been noticed much-I shall call the Jonah Complex.
In my own notes I had at first labeled this defense the "Fear of one's own greatness" or the "evasion of one's destiny" or the "running away from one's own best talents." I had wanted to stress as bluntly and sharply as I could the non-Freudian point that we fear our best as well as our worst, even though in different ways.. It is certainly possible for most of us to be greater than we are in actuality. We all have unused potentialities or not fully developed ones. It is certainly true that many of us evade our constitutionally suggested vocations (call, destiny, task in life, mission). So often we run away from the responsibilities dictated (or rather suggested) by nature, by fate, even sometimes by accident, just as Jonah tried-in vain-to run away from his fate.
We fear our highest possibilities (as well as our lowest ones). We are generally afraid to become that which we can glimpse in our most perfect moments, under the most perfect conditions, under conditions of greatest courage. We enjoy and even thrill to the godlike possibilities we see in ourselves in such peak moments. And yet we simultaneously shiver with weakness, awe, and fear before these very same possibilities.
I have found it easy enough to demonstrate this to my students simply by asking, "Which of you in this class hopes to write the great American novel, or to be a Senator, or Governor, or President? Who wants to be Secretary-general of the United Nations? Or a great composer? Who aspires to be a saint, like Schwietzer, perhaps? Who among you will be a great leader?" Generally everybody starts giggling, blushing, and squirming until I ask, "If not you, then who else?" Which of course is the truth. And in this same way, as I push my graduate students toward these higher levels of aspiration, I'll say "What great book are you now secretly planning to write?" And then they often blush and stammer and push me off in some way. But why should I not ask that question? Who else will write the books on psychology except psychologists? So I can ask, "Do you not plan to be a psychologist?" "Well, yes." "Are you in training to be a mute or an inactive psychologist? What's the advantage of that? That's not a good path to self-actualization. No, you must want to be the first-class psychologist, meaning the best, the very best you are capable of becoming. If you deliberately plan to be less than you are capable of being, then I warn you that you''ll be deeply unhappy for the rest of your life. You will be evading your own capacities, your own possibilities."
Not only are we ambivalent about our own highest possibilities, we are also in a perpetual and I think universal-perhaps even necessary-conflict and ambivalence over these same highest possibilities in other people, and in human nature in general. Certainly we love and admire good men, saints honest, virtuous, clean men. But could anybody who has looked into the depths of human nature fail to be aware of our mixed and often hostile feelings toward saintly men? Or toward very beautiful women or men? Or toward great creators? Or toward our intellectual geniuses? I t is not necessary to be a psychotherapist to see this phenomenon-let us call it "counter-valuing." Any reading of history will turn up plenty of examples, or perhaps even I could say that any such historical search might fail to turn up a single exception throughout the whole history of mankind. We surely love and admire all the persons who have incarnated the true, the good, the beautiful, the just, the perfect, the ultimately successful. And yet they also make us uneasy, anxious, confused, perhaps a little jealous or envious, a little inferior, clumsy. They usually make us lose our aplomb, our self-possession, and self-regard.
Here we have a first clue. My impression so far is that the greatest people, simply by their presence and by being what they are, make us feel aware of our lesser worthy, whether or not they intend to. If this is an unconscious effect, and we are no aware of why we feel stupid or ugly or inferior whenever such a person turns up, we are apt to respond with projection, i.e., we react as if he were trying to make us feel inferior, as if we were the target. Hostility is then an understandable consequence. It looks to me so far as if conscious awareness tends to fend off this hostility. That is, if you are willing to attempt self-awareness and self-analysis of your own counter-valuing, i.e., of your unconscious fear and hatred of true, good, beautiful, etc., people, you will very likely be less than nasty to them. And I am willing also to extrapolate to the guess that if you can learn to love these qualities in yourself in a less frightened way.
Allied to this dynamic is the awe before the highest, of which Rudolf Otto, has given us the classical description. Putting this together with Eliade's insights into sacralization and desacralization, we become more aware of the universality of the fear of direct confrontation with a God or with the godlike. In some religions death is the inevitable consequence. Most preliterate societies also have places or objects that are taboo because they are too sacred and therefore too dangerous. In my last chapter of my Psychology and Science, I have also given examples mostly from science and medicine of desacralizing and resacralizing and tried to explain the psycho=dynamics of these processes. Mostly it comes down to awe before the highest and best. ( I want to stress that this awe is intrinsic, justified, right, suitable, rather than some sickness or failing to get "cured of.")
But here again my feeling is that this awe and fear need not to be negative alone, something to make us flee or cower. These are also desirable and enjoyable feelings capable of bringing us even to the point of highest ecstasy and rapture. Conscious awareness, insight, and "working through," a la Freud, is the answer here too I think. This is the best path I know to the acceptance of our highest powers, and whatever elements of greatness or goodness or wisdom or talent we may have concealed or evaded.
A helpful sidelight for me has come from trying to understand why peak experiences are ordinarily transient and brief. The answer becomes clearer and clearer. We are just not strong enough to endure more! It is just too shaking and wearing. So often people in such ecstatic moments say, "It's too much," or "I can't stand it," "I could die." And as I get the descriptions, I sometimes feel Yes, they could die. Delirious happiness cannot be borne for long. Our organisms are just too weak to endure hour-long sexual orgasms, for example.
The word "peak experience" is more appropriate than I realized at first. The acute emotion must be climactic and momentary and it must give way to nonecstatic serenity, calmer happiness, and the intrinsic pleasures of clear, contemplative cognition of the highest goods. The climactic emotion cannot endure, but B-cognition can.
Doesn't this help us to understand our Jonah Complex? It is partly a justified fear of being torn apart, of losing control, of being shattered, and disintegrated, even of being killed by the experience. Great emotions after all can in fact overwhelm us. The fear of surrendering to such an experience, a fear which reminds us of all the parallel fears found in sexual frigidity, can be understood better I think through familiarity with the literature of psychodynamics'''' and depth psychology, and of the psychophysiology and medical psychomatics of emotion.
There is still another psychological process that I have run across in my explorations of failure to actualize the self. This evasion of growth can be also set in motion by fear of paranoia. Of course this has been said in more universal ways. Promethean and Faustian legends are found in practically any culture. For instance, the Greeks called it the fear of hubris. It has been called "sinful pride," which is of course a permanent human problem. The person who says to himself, "Yes, I will be a great philosopher and I will rewrite Plato and do it better," must sooner or later be struck dumb by his grandiosity, his arrogance. And especially in his weaker moments, will say to himself, "Who? Me?" and think of it as a crazy fantasy or even fear it as a delusion. He compares his knowledge of his inner private self, with all its weakness, vacillation, and shortcomings, and with the bright, shining, perfect, and faultless image he has of Plato. Then, of course, he'll feel presumptuous and grandiose. (What he doesn't realize is that Plato, introspecting, must have felt just the same way about himself, but went ahead anyway, overriding his doubts about himself.)
For some people this evasion of one's growth, setting low levels of aspiration, the fear of doing what one is capable of doing, voluntary self-crippling, pseudostupidity, mock-humility are in fact defenses against grandiosity, arrogance, sinful pride, hubris. There are people who cannot manage that graceful integration between the humility and the pride which is absolutely necessary for creative work. To invent or create you must have the "arrogance of creativeness" which so many investigators have noticed. But, of course, if you have only the arrogance without the humility, then you are in fact paranoid. You must be aware not only of the godlike possibilities within, but also for the existential human limitations. You must be able simultaneously to laugh at yourself and at all human pretensions. If you can be amused by the worm trying to be a God, then in fact you may be able to go on trying and being arrogant without fearing paranoia or bringing down upon yourself the evil eye. This is a good technique.
May I mention one or more such technique that I saw at its best in Aldous Huxley, who was certainly a great man in the sense I've been discussing, one who was able to accept his talents and use them to the full. He managed it by perpetually marveling at how interesting and fascinating everything was, by wondering like a youngster at how miraculous things are, by saying frequently, "Extraordinary! Extraordinary!" He could look out at the world with wide eyes, with unabashed innocence, awe, and fascination, which is kind of admission of smallness, a form of humility, and then proceed calmly and unafraid to the great tasks he set for himself.
Finally, I refer you to a paper of mine relevant in itself, but also as the first in a possible series. Its title, "The need to know and the fear of knowing," illustrates well what I want to say about each of the intrinsic or ultimate values that I've called Values of Being (B-Values). I am trying to say that these ultimate values, which I think are also the highest needs, or metaneeds, as I call them in Chapter 23, fall, like all basic needs, into the basic Freudian schema of impulse and defense against that impulse. Thus it is certainly demonstrable that we need the truth and love it and seek it. And yet it is just as easy to demonstrate that we are also simultaneously afraid to know the truth.
I predict that we will find a similar dialectic for each of the intrinsic Values of Being, and I have vaguely thought of doing series of papers on e.g., "The love of beauty and our uneasiness with it." "Our love of the good man and our irritation with him." "Our search for excellence and our tendency to destroy it," etc., etc. Of course, these counter-values are stronger in neurotic people but it looks to me as if all of us must make our peace with these man impulses within ourselves. And my impression so far is that the best way to do this is to transmute envy, jealousy, presentiment, and nastiness into humble admiration, gratitude, appreciation, adoration, and even worship via conscious insight and working through. This is the road to feeling small and weak and unworthy and accepting these feelings instead of needing to protect a spuriously high self-esteem by striking out.
And again I think it is obvious that understanding of this basic existential problem should help us to embrace the B-Values not only in others, but also in ourselves, thereby helping to resolve the Jonah Complex. 


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Anonymous

Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2248326 - 01/17/04 12:29 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: ]
    #2248343 - 01/17/04 12:35 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

[Elvis]Thank you, Thankyouverymuch[/Elvis] :grin:

I had a helluva time typing that too...Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a doctor's appt for my Carpal Tunnel Syndrome... :wink:


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Offlinefungulus
member
Registered: 08/17/03
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2253506 - 01/19/04 04:52 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Dumb people are just numb. They can't deal. Here's something to sharpen your teeth on. The average IQ of a human is 107. The average IQ of a trout is 7. Why is it so hard to catch a fish?
Who has an answer?

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: fungulus]
    #2253556 - 01/19/04 05:08 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

It's...HARD..to catch a fish? :smirk:


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2253581 - 01/19/04 05:17 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I'll do it man style, with my bare hands. and then bite off the fishes head and spit out it's eyeball.. that's right man stuff...


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2253582 - 01/19/04 05:17 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I'll do it man style, with my bare hands. and then bite off the fishes head and spit out it's eyeball.. that's right man stuff...


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2253615 - 01/19/04 05:29 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

People in the pacific have learned techniques that involves just sneaking up behind the fish, and actually tickling the fish and grabbing it by it's tail.

Saw it on Discovery. Pretty damn neato.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Anonymous

Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: fungulus]
    #2253791 - 01/19/04 06:43 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2254283 - 01/19/04 09:05 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

By the way, I learned a neat trick, for those of us who can't read bighugefuckingparagraphs such as the one Skorpivo posted above.

You copy and paste it to word and then break it up yourself.

:grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: Shizpow]
    #2254662 - 01/19/04 11:04 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

As we evolved, life was hard. If you were stupid, more often than not, you got your dumb ass killed young. So intelligence was selected for and we got smarter. Now here we are in a time when we are so advanced that we can take care of literally anyone and everyone, and keep them from doing stupid things and getting themselves killed off. Suddenly, it takes a whole lot more stupid to get your dumb ass killed, so intelligence is not being selected for

what is intelligence? is it measured in knowledge, or the ability to learn?

if a genetic variation causes a human to crave bitter fruit, and causes him to eat poison, does it make him less intelligent than his cousin who craves a sweet harvest?


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson

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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: Shizpow]
    #2255176 - 01/20/04 05:25 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

these are the "secret words of power" revealed to j r "bob" dobbs by l ron hubbard in an elevator in texas in the late '50s:
think of how stupid the "average" person is...
now realize that half of the population is even more stupid than that
~
:wink:
~
scary...
~
~
well, by definition, the average IQ is 100...
(of course, the "average person" on the street will be a bit higher, because most of the folks cruising behinid an IQ of 65 of so are gonna be institutionalized or something, eh?
bell curves, percentiles,  standard deviation...
yeah, the vast majority of folks are gonna fall between IQ 80 & IQ 120... the statistics will insist that there are as many "gifted" & "geniuses" (whazzat, IQs greater than ummmmm 140, 150?) as there are "morons" & "imbeciles" (IQs 60 or 50 or less?) --- hmmm, i wonder which group ends up causing more trouble for society :wink: ...
the top 3% are eligible for  membership in mensa; what are the bottom 3% doing? :frown: ...
well...
never mind...
but that's this morning's musings on human stupidity, i suppose...
(pretty bleak, huh?)


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: Frog]
    #2255183 - 01/20/04 05:31 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Aww..I'm so glad you adapted to your harsh environment laden with astronomically sized verbose paragraphs and mile long words that would make an inexperienced ADHDer's head explode.
So at least tell me whatcha thought of it. :smile:


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: Evolving]
    #2255905 - 01/20/04 11:36 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Look up "dawins black box"

and "darwin on trial"

Not everything comes from your genes , in fact even before those books there were experiments that showed rats could pass behaviours WITHOUT genes!, so however that happens is anyones geuss, the classic idea is feilds of intellegence.


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Offlinequemo
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Re: Why are people dumb? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2256604 - 01/20/04 03:29 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Why are the majority of people dumb?

because we have to kill each other off (very serious about this, but too lazy to explain, perhaps sometime in another thread)

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