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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: Rustifer]
    #22663305 - 12/16/15 02:25 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Like I said, sick is sick.  Once you're out of commission it doesn't really matter if you're kratom sick or dope sick.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #22663981 - 12/16/15 05:01 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Ok what is dope sick? I thought that was what withdrawal was. :shrug:


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: koods]
    #22664001 - 12/16/15 05:05 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah it is.  I'm just saying that if it gets you high, and you do it long enough, you will be hurting.  Especially doing a weaker drug more often than someone doing a strong drug more sporadically, the weaker drug will often cause worse withdrawals. 

There is also getting sick off kratom, which is really why I don't like it, but I mean kratom sick like withdrawals from kratom.  I can't handle all that planty mess.


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OfflineO_Dweeds
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #22667304 - 12/17/15 11:20 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
Yeah it is.  I'm just saying that if it gets you high, and you do it long enough, you will be hurting.  Especially doing a weaker drug more often than someone doing a strong drug more sporadically, the weaker drug will often cause worse withdrawals. 

There is also getting sick off kratom, which is really why I don't like it, but I mean kratom sick like withdrawals from kratom.  I can't handle all that planty mess.




I just took the longest break, due to being on steroid inhaler/antibiotics for an infection. And there was not a single symptom in the slightest after using cannabis daily for the last 10 years. So I would say not everything that gets you high has withdrawals, regardless of the length and dosage used.

Glad to hear you got off the IV opiates. Being a long-time opiate user myself I've seen many users eventually turn to the needle and it was like a switch. Their habit doubled within a month, event tho at first they were all using much less and thought it was great, plus they went from energetic high to nodding off/throwing up. And I've only known one of them that has been able to quit after switching to the needle.


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Oxygen. Water. Neil Young

Our word "planet" comes from the Greek word planetes, meaning "wanderer."

"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Georgia I eat a peach for peace."
Gregg Allman


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InvisibleRustifer
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: O_Dweeds] * 1
    #22667324 - 12/17/15 11:25 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

45 days today.


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: Rustifer] * 2
    #22667370 - 12/17/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

YEAH BUDDY!

:prettyflyforawhiteguy:


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: O_Dweeds] * 1
    #22667380 - 12/17/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I don't mean everything that gets you high will cause withdrawals.  I mean with kratom/opiates.

Nice job Rust.  I'm at 10 today.  Double digits madderfacker  :whoo:  if only I had made it the first time around I would be right up there with you, but I'll take 10.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #22667409 - 12/17/15 11:47 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

There is really no legitimate debate that kratom withdrawal is a toned down, less intense, shorter lasting, far less miserable and far more managable form or level of opiate withdrawal.

Saying "dope withdrawal is no different from kratom withdrawal" really isnt true.  they are both on the same spectrum, but kratom is almost always a far less hellish withdrawal then what people on opium, heroin, oxy or subs or bupe or whatever other opiate have to go through.

Yes, if you take kratom you will still have to deal with withdrawals. No , they wont be as hellish as if you get yourself a real heroin or oxy habit.

I know people like to pretend this is not the case, but anyone being real knows it is.

The people who have hellish kratom withdrawal are the people who are addicted to a hard opiate, switch directly to kratom to manage the WD, then go off kratom. At that point the original opiate WD kicks in because the kratom is no longer masking it, leading them to think the WD they are experiencing is from the kratom, when if they had only ever used the kratom the WD would be far less.

Trust me, I have been using kratom daily for 2 years. I went cold turkey for my trip to europe and other then a few nights of insomnia and a few days of depression, I had a great trip, was totally fine and was totally back to normal in a few days.

If I had been taking heroin every day for two years and quit cold turkey, I would not have been hiking in the swiss alps with a smile on my face four days later feeling great.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleRustifer
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #22667432 - 12/17/15 11:53 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Have you ever had a hardcore opiate addiction Moonshoe?


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #22667438 - 12/17/15 11:55 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Oh. Down from 4x capsules 8-10 times a day to 3-4 twice a day. I've been forgetting to take it lately, which is good, but I can still feel the PAWS from opiates.

I feel you, Moonshoe. If it wasn't for kratom, I wouldn't have been out mushroom hunting a week later off a 5.5yr habit.


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #22667442 - 12/17/15 11:56 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah I've never taken Kratom without already being hooked on opiates, which is probably why I don't really like it, but I still think that being sick just sucks period.  If you go another two years it will be worse, and continue to get worse every time you try and stop.  I'm sure it can get ugly enough that people shouldn't assume that because it isn't smack then it wont have serious consequences.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #22667482 - 12/17/15 12:08 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

If I continued to use at the same level or increase my dose the withdrawal would continue to slowly get worse.

However instead I have been gradually reducing my doses, and am continuing to do so, so actually my dependence and WD is getting better/less, not worse, while still enjoying the benefits that I so value.

So far I have reduced my dose and daily use by two thirds or more without experiencing the slightest WD in doing so.

No I have never used any opiates other then kratom at all.

At the end of the day there are two things that are extremely clear

1. Kratom use, dependence and withdrawal is far far less harmful and unpleasant then opiate dependence and withdrawal

2. Any kind of dependence or withdrawal is unpleasant and should be avoided if possible, and kratom should not be used daily because if it is, dependence will eventually present itself.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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Invisiblevolcomstoner
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #22667488 - 12/17/15 12:11 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I've been taking kratom for years usually months at a time going everyday with no breaks.  I've never had the slightest symptom of physical withdrawal.  But I've known multiple people that claim they have. Usually, they already have a hefty opiate habit, or have never even tried a "hard"  drug.

Kratom is one of those drugs that it varies quite a bit from person to person.  I know people that 4-10 grams a day is plenty for them, and I regularly take up to 40 grams a day to get where I want to be. And that's how it's been ever since I started taking it, my tolerance hasn't raised over the years, if anything it's gotten lower.


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Vas donc jouer dans le traffic


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Offlineolson
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #22667494 - 12/17/15 12:11 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:

The people who have hellish kratom withdrawal are the people who are addicted to a hard opiate, switch directly to kratom to manage the WD, then go off kratom. At that point the original opiate WD kicks in because the kratom is no longer masking it, leading them to think the WD they are experiencing is from the kratom, when if they had only ever used the kratom the WD would be far less.





Thats a good point. Also the kindling effect would be in action. If you've withdrawn from hard opiates numerous times a kratom withdrawal which would normally be mild to the non opiate addict is made into a full-blown withdrawal by re-activation of dormant opioid receptors.


--------------------

Kinesin, a motor protein, shuttling a vesicle full of cargo
such as glucose or even neurotransmitters across a cell.
This little guy struts along the microtubule using ATP as fuel.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: volcomstoner]
    #22667502 - 12/17/15 12:14 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Excactly. Thats a perfect example of why kratom is so different.

Its literally in a totally different league then other opiates.

If you used any other opiate the way you use kratom (high dose, every day) you would ruin, get hellish withdrawal and die.

With kratom its possible (if not advisable) to do high dose kratom every day without dying, getting hellish withdrawal or ruining your life.

Its actually possible to have a daily kratom habit that improves your quality of life without any major negative consequences besides the relatively minor financial cost of maintaining your habit.

I mean you dose 40 grams at a time and have no real issues. I only dose 3 grams at a time and I get great results too.

In many ways, as someone who has used many different drugs, kratom is just magical as fuck.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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Invisiblevolcomstoner
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: volcomstoner]
    #22667503 - 12/17/15 12:14 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

With that being said I'm very thankful for kratom, I recently had my wisdom teeth removed and ended up with 2 dry sockets.  I couldn't handle the pain without opiates, and if I didn't have kratom to cure the craving after taking my prescribed opiates I feel I would have been much more susceptible for a relapse. 

So far I'm coming pretty close to 2 years no heroin :awebig:


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HAIL SATAN

Vas donc jouer dans le traffic


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: olson]
    #22667507 - 12/17/15 12:15 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

olson said:
Quote:

Moonshoe said:

The people who have hellish kratom withdrawal are the people who are addicted to a hard opiate, switch directly to kratom to manage the WD, then go off kratom. At that point the original opiate WD kicks in because the kratom is no longer masking it, leading them to think the WD they are experiencing is from the kratom, when if they had only ever used the kratom the WD would be far less.





Thats a good point. Also the kindling effect would be in action. If you've withdrawn from hard opiates numerous times a kratom withdrawal which would normally be mild to the non opiate addict is made into a full-blown withdrawal by re-activation of dormant opioid receptors.





Excactly. In my experience something like this is always the case when people talk about really severe kratom WD. They always are either coming off a previous opiate addiction or had periods of addiction and withdrawal in their past.

Kratom is close enough to the opiate they were addicted to that it triggers a withdrawal that a person who only ever used kratom wouldnt experience.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: volcomstoner]
    #22667510 - 12/17/15 12:16 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

volcomstoner said:
With that being said I'm very thankful for kratom, I recently had my wisdom teeth removed and ended up with 2 dry sockets.  I couldn't handle the pain without opiates, and if I didn't have kratom to cure the craving after taking my prescribed opiates I feel I would have been much more susceptible for a relapse. 

So far I'm coming pretty close to 2 years no heroin :awebig:




Another kratom Miracle!

Seriously to me every opiate addict who stabilizes on kratom has basically saved their own lives, and kratom deserves a lot of fucking respect for its ability to really help opiate addicts who would otherwise end up dead, in rehab or in jail.

Of course your own hard work and determination is at work here, not just kratom, but its great that it helps you, however much.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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Offlineolson
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #22667518 - 12/17/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:


1. Kratom use, dependence and withdrawal is far far less harmful and unpleasant then opiate dependence and withdrawal





I'm not so sure that's true. The withdrawal from opioids is in proportion to the high they give. Yeah, kratom withdrawal is milder than morphine withdrawal but so too is the high. There's no free lunch in the opioid world.


--------------------

Kinesin, a motor protein, shuttling a vesicle full of cargo
such as glucose or even neurotransmitters across a cell.
This little guy struts along the microtubule using ATP as fuel.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Where are all the addicts? [Re: olson]
    #22667530 - 12/17/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Well I am not arguing that other opiates give a better high. What I am saying is the lifestyle outcomes of a kratom addict (chance of lethal overdose, chance of going to prison, chance of getting a bloodborne disease, chance of premature death, violent death, suicide, etc etc) is far far better then the lifestyle outcomes of a heroin addict.

Like people who use heroin or oxy end up going on a very predictable downward spin towards things like divorce, homelessness, job loss, mental illness, lethal overdose, health problems, intravenous use etc etc.

None of these problems typically present with kratom addiction. Kratom addicts dont use needles. they dont die of overdoses. And in virtually every case they don't end up losing their houses, jobs, marriages and savings to kratom.

The life expectancy of a heroin addict is something like seven years from first use of heroin.

The life expectancy of a kratom addict is almost certainly not very different from the general public.

Many thousands of people die from opiates each year, very very few die each year from kratom.

And opiate addicts admit freely they lose control of their lives and their entire existence becomes about chasing dope.

Kratom addicts are not much different from coffee drinkers, they just take a few tsp and get on with their day. They dont end up in prostitution or crime for kratom.

Kratom is far less expensive of a habit to maintain.

Also kratom WD is far less debilitating.

These are the things I Was referring to with my statement.



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Everything I post is fiction.


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