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OfflineCue
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Repeated failure with flow hood
    #22472811 - 11/03/15 07:14 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Been having repeated g2g transfers with my flow hood. Agar transfers have been about 75%. This has been going on for about a month now. I've been trying to clean up my sterile procedure in that time to try and nail down what the problem is.

I currently work in a full tyvek suit, including the hood, with a face mask, and alcohol washed gloves. I also spray down the hood, and let it run for at least an hour before I work in front of it.. I wipe everything down, and do transfers just as I would in an SAB, only a little bit faster because I'm not stuck inside a box.

Last time I tried PCing my wbs jars for 90min instead of 60. I tossed some wedges in those jars. So far so good, but I have my doubts given my past record of issues.

I should mention that before the hood, I had about a 5-10% contam rate with the SAB.

Im debating doing a comparison of the SAB to the hood, after relocating the hood to another room. Maybe the room I'm working in now is just not clean enough?

Frankly, I'm about to go back to the SAB and ditch the hood, despite the limited workspace.


Ideas?


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OfflineCue
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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22472931 - 11/03/15 07:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

G2g transfers have been about 25% clean, or less, while others Agar transfers have been about 75-80% clean. Sorry if that wasn't clear. This includes spore prints, syringes, and wedges to new plates.


Edited by Cue (11/03/15 07:39 PM)


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22472951 - 11/03/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Hah. I know EXACTLY how you feel. My agar work is stellar, never see so much as a blob so I know the hoods working.

I cleaned up my room, found a better table , put a big sheet of glass under the hood to make wiping it down easier.

Definitely keep it up with the 90 min cook times, that helps.
Are you G2G into bags or jars?

I did the stop cock upgrade on my PC so it acts as a sterilizer now. I can pull my jars/bags out in front of the hood and they will be sterile, no having to wipe, hopefully that mAkes a difference.

I have no idea where Im going wrong either, seems no matter how much I step it up it doesnt maje a difference. So I feel your pain :lol:


Try innoculating your spawn all wedge to grain for a while. Split a plate to 4-5 jars and only use spawn specific to each plate for your tubs.
If the A2G fails, then you know it could either be your cultures or your master jars causing contams and not G2G.
I know you said your agar work isn't perfect so it very well could be that.

This seems the best way to pinpoint and its where Im at right now too man


Oh one more thing, throw your tyvek in a spawn bag and run it thru a PC cycle. That or try using freshly laundered clothes instead and clean tyvek sleeves.
My results go a *little* better when I started cleaning my tyvek regularly. I was usinh a suit for a while and since I couldn't throw them in the wash I think it picked up a lot of crud


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Offlinethebitterbuffalo26
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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: mushpunx]
    #22472987 - 11/03/15 07:47 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

need more pc?... probably. If you had perfect grain prep and sterilization, I would bet you could get 75% success in an open room.


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OfflineDrCrumbs
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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: mushpunx]
    #22472990 - 11/03/15 07:48 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

You working with stuff from before?

I've had issues build and build. I blamed moving, but now I wonder.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: DrCrumbs]
    #22473001 - 11/03/15 07:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

a bad wedge of agar that goes undetected will ruin all subsequent jars, maybe the bad jars came from one wedge of agar?


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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: thebitterbuffalo26]
    #22473132 - 11/03/15 08:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

a HEPA isn't magic…needs to be built right…blower and all that.

if that is dialed in, i would check ur plates man.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: blindingleaf]
    #22473439 - 11/03/15 09:15 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I bought one from fungi perfect and I improved it as a vertical hood
It helped a lot with the contaminants and I've recently found this about vertical versus horizontal laminar flow

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22162570/page/2




http://www.terrauniversal.com/blog/all-terra-blogs/horizontal-vs-vertical-laminar-flow-hoods/
I've also added a UV-c light to keep contaminants down to a minimum when not in use


Edited by 99.99 (11/04/15 06:38 PM)


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Offlineinvitro

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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22473558 - 11/03/15 09:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I do 2 hours in the pc as a standard.  If I had contams I might up the time or split it into 2 cooks... pasty does that from time to time with dirty grain. 

Get medieval on them spores.





Edited by invitro (11/03/15 09:48 PM)


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: invitro]
    #22473601 - 11/03/15 09:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

A flow hood is no substitute for sterile technique either. It requires more precision and dexterity than it otherwise does in a SAB. Contamination falls down vs not being able to sterilize the outside of jars and your hands and then working with flowing air. Flow hoods are excellent if you know how to use them and their application. If people built adequately sized SABs lots of hoods would have went unbuilt but most people get good enough to use a FH by the amount of practice they've had by the time they build one but mistakenly attribute success to things you buy not your own skill development


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22473921 - 11/03/15 11:03 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:

. . .  but mistakenly attribute success to things you buy not your own skill development






Great great point.

Looking back on my hobby, I realize there were points I made progress and improved quality and yield, and made a conclusion, but years later, I realized my positive progress was based on a false concept.

Put another way, if things go well, don't assume the parameters you observe have anything to do with your success. There might be other factors.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22474005 - 11/03/15 11:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Ditch the tyvek suit. I'm sure it's covered in contams.
Shower before working and either put on freshly washed clothes or work naked or in underwear.
Soak your grain for 18-24 hours. PC for 2 hours.
Be sure you aren't moving your hands (or anything else) in between the filter and the plate/jar.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: azur]
    #22474441 - 11/04/15 03:50 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I've gone g2g to  both jars and bags. All other points duly noted. I may record myself with the GoPro to critic my technique post transfer. Will try to remember to report back after another few attempts. Thanks!


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: azur]
    #22474501 - 11/04/15 04:56 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

azur said:
Ditch the tyvek suit. I'm sure it's covered in contams.
Shower before working and either put on freshly washed clothes or work naked or in underwear.
Soak your grain for 18-24 hours. PC for 2 hours.
Be sure you aren't moving your hands (or anything else) in between the filter and the plate/jar.





That's what I was saying man, I had gotten a bunch of suits from a trade but after a while I started getting worried about whats clinging to them because you can't really wash empty.

I run my tyvek sleeves thru PC cycle. They can handle it, I use them in my spawn bags over and over.

I used to be a phlebotomist so I have a ton of scrubs around, so I usually use those, fresh oug of the wash.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22474536 - 11/04/15 05:22 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
A flow hood is no substitute for sterile technique either. It requires more precision and dexterity than it otherwise does in a SAB. Contamination falls down vs not being able to sterilize the outside of jars and your hands and then working with flowing air. Flow hoods are excellent if you know how to use them and their application. If people built adequately sized SABs lots of hoods would have went unbuilt but most people get good enough to use a FH by the amount of practice they've had by the time they build one but mistakenly attribute success to things you buy not your own skill development





The stopcock sterilizer upgrade goes pretty awesome with a FH for that reason. At least the outside of your recieving jars/bags will be sterile. Im hoping that should help some.
Can't do much about your masters except wipe them down before work, same with your gloves/hands.
But if you move the masters from sterilizer to FH to somewhere nice and clean then you can at least reduce the nasties on the outside of the jars some yea?


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InvisibleJuiceh
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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: azur]
    #22474796 - 11/04/15 07:27 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cue said:
Been having repeated g2g transfers with my flow hood.



Details on your flow hood? If you're having this much bad luck with a flow hood there is either something wrong with it or there is a flaw in your inoculation procedures.


Quote:

azur said:
Ditch the tyvek suit. I'm sure it's covered in contams.
Shower before working and either put on freshly washed clothes or work naked or in underwear.
Soak your grain for 18-24 hours. PC for 2 hours.
Be sure you aren't moving your hands (or anything else) in between the filter and the plate/jar.



All good stuff here, especially that last tidbit!!

In my experience showering and the cleanliness of my clothes haven't made any difference that I can tell. As long as all parts of you and your clothes are downstream and your flowhood is functioning properly it shouldn't matter. However, it is good practice so I try to do this before flowhood work too but it doesn't always happen.

You can even do agar transfers ungloved with a flowhood. As long as you keep your hands downstream it's pretty easy. I still use gloves frequently soaked in alcohol and do not recommend ungloved flowhood work though.

I also use a surgical mask while working with the flowhood. That way any coughs or sharp exhales get diffused by the mask and don't have a chance to make it back into the flow of air and into my work.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Juiceh]
    #22474974 - 11/04/15 08:29 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

When I do jars or plates, I won't always wear sleeves, but with bags I do, larger opening and all.
I always wear gloves, but obviously many good people on here don't so it's more preference/technique.

I think it's his hood or his plates.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: blindingleaf]
    #22476117 - 11/04/15 11:47 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
When I do jars or plates, I won't always wear sleeves, but with bags I do, larger opening and all.
I always wear gloves, but obviously many good people on here don't so it's more preference/technique.

I think it's his hood or his plates.





He can always use new cultures, but how would you sugguest he tests his hood? Leave a blank plate in frony of it? Flame test?


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: mushpunx]
    #22476467 - 11/04/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I suspect the hood also. Assuming other things are good.
A tyvek suit is not needed. Your body should not be in your flow hood. Maybe wear sleeves but washing your arms/hands will do the trick


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: tahoe]
    #22477101 - 11/04/15 03:45 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

My hood consists of an astrocel I, 2x2, with a Dayton 1TDT5


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22477299 - 11/04/15 04:39 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Do  you have the specs on the blower?

Check for leaks, maybe check over your silicone if you used it. Try using a burning incense stick to check for leaks

How does flame test hold up? 

Try maybe putting some blank plates around for a few minutes opened up and watch them, see if antthing grows :shrug:


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22477328 - 11/04/15 04:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cue said:
My hood consists of an astrocel I, 2x2, with a Dayton 1TDT5





Technical Specs for your blower..

Dayton Model 1TDT5 Blower 975 CFM 1020 RPM 115V 60hz.
http://www.grainger.com/product/DAYTON-Rectangular-OEM-Blower-Without-1TDT5?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/1TDT4_AS01?$smthumb$Dayton%20Model%201TDT5%20Blower%20975%20CFM%201020%20RPM%20115V%2060hz.

CFM @ 0.000-In. SP 965
CFM @ 0.100-In. SP 950
CFM @ 0.200-In. SP 910
CFM @ 0.300-In. SP 850
CFM @ 0.400-In. SP 820
CFM @ 0.500-In. SP 750
CFM @ 0.600-In. SP 710

You need to find out the sp (static pressure) of your filter to produce a laminar flow.
My filter is 24'x24'x6".. filter from Fungi Perfecti.
For that filter I need almost 1.000-in.sp to end up with 400 cfm.
Anything under 400 cfm. you would not have a laminar flow.
Without laminar flow your outlet air could have uneven velocity and that would cause an eddies that would suck in contaminates.
Without laminar flow you would have to work right up against the filter.
Your blower is putting out 710 cfm. at .6-inches. and the specs. doesn't  go lower than .6 sp..
It's very important to know the specs. of your filter before buying a blower..

Just my two cents.. I'm not an engineer and it's very possible I don't know what I'm talking about..

:cookiemonster:


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OfflineCue
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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: micelio]
    #22477572 - 11/04/15 05:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

astrocel I is 0.9" resistance . Looks like the 1tdt5 is just barely below 400 at that resistance


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22477582 - 11/04/15 05:50 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

As for the flame test, I can't keep a lighter lit in front of the hood. There's so much flow going through it goes to about 90 degrees for a second or so before it blows out


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22477656 - 11/04/15 06:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I see that the flow does drop off dramatically however. At .96 it's closer to 200. Does anyone have any suggestions on fans?


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22477719 - 11/04/15 06:28 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Or rather, if I get a blower that's throwing 1040 CFM at .8", will dialing it down with a speed control be enough?


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Invisiblemicelio
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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22477843 - 11/04/15 06:56 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

You could always close off the intake to the blower a little with cardboard or something to get the ideal 45 degree flame angle..

Some motors don't do well with speed controllers..

Is your filter 6" or 12" deep?


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Edited by micelio (11/04/15 07:00 PM)


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OfflineCue
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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: micelio]
    #22477886 - 11/04/15 07:06 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

12". I'm just trying to get all the bases covered before I order another blower. I was looking at the Dayton 1tdu2, but it seems like I'm going to be slicing down a lot of that intake to get it closer to 400cfm at 0.9".

Thoughts? Is this the likely root of the problem?


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22477928 - 11/04/15 07:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cue said:
I see that the flow does drop off dramatically however. At .96 it's closer to 200. Does anyone have any suggestions on fans?



Quote:

Cue said:
As for the flame test, I can't keep a lighter lit in front of the hood. There's so much flow going through it goes to about 90 degrees for a second or so before it blows out




if ur blower is blowing less than half of what is recommended, how is it blowing the lighter out?

12" filters have less resistance than 6" filters as i understand it.  it is the same amount of filter material as a 6", just stretched out, so resistance decreases.
like if u put 1 lb of feathers inside a straw and tried to blow thru it, then put 1 lb of feathers into a pvc pipe and blew thru it.
its the same amount of material that is resisting, but the area that material is in has enlarged.
thats what i gather anyway….


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: blindingleaf]
    #22477964 - 11/04/15 07:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Beats me. Unless the astrocel 1 specs are wrong. It's seems odd to me as well, but there's no way that I can keep the bic lighter lit within 3-4" of the face of the filter. If I stick 2 prefilters in front of the intake it slows the flame down enough to stay lit (maybe about 60 degrees) but looking at the math, that would reduce the slow to something really low.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22477997 - 11/04/15 07:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

where does the filter say it has .96" resistance?  on the actual sticker on the filter?


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: blindingleaf]
    #22478006 - 11/04/15 07:33 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

The filter actually says .9", the .96" was from the Dayton spec sheet for the fan


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22478014 - 11/04/15 07:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

this might sound dumb, but it happened in a thread before….are u sure it doesn't say .4"?  some of the stickers are hand written, some are printed out.
when i look at HEPA's, it always seemed like the 12"  filters had lower SP's.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: blindingleaf]
    #22478043 - 11/04/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22478053 - 11/04/15 07:42 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cue said:
12". I'm just trying to get all the bases covered before I order another blower. I was looking at the Dayton 1tdu2, but it seems like I'm going to be slicing down a lot of that intake to get it closer to 400cfm at 0.9".

Thoughts? Is this the likely root of the problem?



From what I understand is: The 12"deep Hepa filter is for filtering rooms. It lets twice the air through than the 6" filter.
That could be why you have high velocity without much back pressure (Static pressure)

This high-power, multi-purpose blower is the perfect choice for pushing air through our 24x18, 24x24 and 24x36 inch HEPA filters. Dual-voltage power supply operates at either 115 or 230V. Delivers 1,040 CFM at .8" static pressure. Draws 4.8/2.5 amps @115V or 7.3/3.7 amps @ 230V. - See more at: http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/universal-blower-1040-cfm-8-sp.html#sthash.wHAvROX1.dpuf

These filters are 6" deep.. I'm not sure if you can get laminar flow with the 12" deep filter with this blower..

Maybe someone with some knowledge will chime in.. This is a little over my head for me to offer advice..


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22478054 - 11/04/15 07:42 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

That's not directly off of my personal filter, but realistically I don't want to undo the caulking to see the paper. I know it's an astrocel I, seems dubious that the one I have would be 0.4 when everything online has it as 0.9


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22478063 - 11/04/15 07:45 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting point micelio. Curious is someone can chime in on that


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22478080 - 11/04/15 07:50 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well, this will be a first for me, but

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You can use whatever you want.  The engineers who design and manufacture them make the 12" thick filters for clean room use, and the 5" to 7" for flow hood use. 
RR





http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19780786


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22478088 - 11/04/15 07:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

yea, thats looks like a .9"
i just wanted to make sure…a thread maybe a month ago the dude read a hand written label as .9" when it was .4"

Im using the one micelio linked for my 2x3, and it blows at 173 fpm.
i know FP suggests that for their 2x2 as well, so u can go for it if u want.

this blower is a little weaker, and might be good too for a 2x2.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: blindingleaf]
    #22478103 - 11/04/15 07:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

The TDT5 is what I am running now, albeit with a 24x24x12 filter. Il have to look for a 6" I guess


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22478112 - 11/04/15 07:59 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

there is a couple builds with 12"…i think dam ion did it, and a few dudes in gourmet.

u need to make sure ur plenum is larger though…at least 12"…i would go more to account for less resistance from filter.

because my blower is more powerful than needed, even though my HEPA is only 6", i did a 14" plenum….
just saying that extra junk in the trunk helps to equalize the air before it forces its ways thru the filter


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: blindingleaf]
    #22478135 - 11/04/15 08:05 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

read this

pirate swazeys build.

he uses speed controller with random blower….he is the man.  great write up.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22478241 - 11/04/15 08:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cue said:
The TDT5 is what I am running now, albeit with a 24x24x12 filter. Il have to look for a 6" I guess



This is the stats on the blower that Fungi Perfecti recommends for their 24"x24"x6" filter...

1TDU2
http://www.grainger.com/product/DAYTON-Rectangular-OEM-Blower-Without-1TDU2?functionCode=P2IDP2PCP
This blower is much cheaper on Amazon..

24"x24"x6" filter from Fungi perfecti..

24 x 24 x 5.8" Micron Filter:
http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/24-x-24-x-58-micron-filter.html
Very nice people to deal with.. give them a call for any questions..
:cookiemonster:


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: micelio]
    #22478252 - 11/04/15 08:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Was curious if the blower I have now will run that 24x24x6, but fungi.com doesn't have any specs on it.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22478293 - 11/04/15 08:47 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cue said:
Was curious if the blower I have now will run that 24x24x6, but fungi.com doesn't have any specs on it.




I suggest calling Fungi Perfecti and tell them what you have and ask for There honest opinion from them. It's worth it to get solid information and quit guessing.

Toll free US & Canada (800)780-9126
                Phone (360)426-9292

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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: micelio]
    #22478318 - 11/04/15 08:52 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Good luck getting answers from them. It'll just be some dumb bitch that knows nothing that'll answer. Been there, done that


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: micelio]
    #22478351 - 11/04/15 08:58 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Oh! Pirate Swazeys design was a very big help when I built My flow hood..
My pre-filter upper box was a little bigger. 17"x17"x17"..

Thanks Pirate Swazeys, You made my life easier. Nice illustration..


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: azur]
    #22478400 - 11/04/15 09:12 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

azur said:
Good luck getting answers from them. It'll just be some dumb bitch that knows nothing that'll answer. Been there, done that



Yeah your probably right.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: micelio]
    #22478424 - 11/04/15 09:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Cue..
For now I suggest blocking the intake to the blower just to slow down the air flow..
Also work very close to your filter..


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22478471 - 11/04/15 09:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cue said:
G2g transfers have been about 25% clean, or less, while others Agar transfers have been about 75-80% clean. Sorry if that wasn't clear. This includes spore prints, syringes, and wedges to new plates.




FH specs? :jointsmile:

OP claims upwards to 80% success rate on plates, all the way thru to supposedly clean Master Jars. If it's a bunk flow his success rate up to that point should be way lower and a lot closer to his unacceptable <25% G2G.

Seems like the problem lies between Master Jar and G2, which could easily be technique related or issues with lids/filters...etc. 

Also might be helpful to know what contam your dealing with - bacteria or mold.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: blindingleaf]
    #22478484 - 11/04/15 09:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
there is a couple builds with 12"…i think dam ion did it, and a few dudes in gourmet.

u need to make sure ur plenum is larger though…at least 12"…i would go more to account for less resistance from filter.

because my blower is more powerful than needed, even though my HEPA is only 6", i did a 14" plenum….
just saying that extra junk in the trunk helps to equalize the air before it forces its ways thru the filter





Yea me too, my filter is 6" but I went with a 12" plenum.

Like BL said, you need a 12" plenum at least behind a filter that thick. Other than that there is no reason not to use a 12" thick HEPA and you would use the same blower for a 12" as a 6". The reason most people go with 6" is because of all the bulk


You don't need the .sp rating or whatever for your math. You just need the blower specs chart and you need to know the size of the filter, that's the only data you need. Well that and what size plenum you need.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: mushpunx]
    #22481988 - 11/05/15 05:06 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well right now I have about a 9" plenum behind the filter. If I increase that area, is that going to help?

http://electricmotorwarehouse.com/content/Dayton/blower_specs/ITDT5.pdf Contains the blower specs


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22481993 - 11/05/15 05:07 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm still questioning if the tdt5 has the nuts to push through the filter


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22482012 - 11/05/15 05:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry I keep adding multiple posts to reply to questions.

I'm mostly having issues with molds, looks like one of the non-trich molds. I have sfd filters on the lids. I've been working directly in front of the filter, and by directly, I mean as close as humanly possible to the face of the filter.

Also, if I block the intake to my blower, is that going to effect overall CFM and thus kill the flow rate to achieve laminar flow (although seems like I'm not getting it anyways with the small plenum).


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22482075 - 11/05/15 05:24 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Did you draw out the math to match your blower to your filter before you built the hood? That's the most important part.

I don't think a 9" plenum will do it. You want at least a 12" plenum for your filter but I would go a little more even.

Your filter is 24 x 24" , your blower will need to push at least 400cfm @ 1" sp. To achieve laminar flow. Actually probably at 1.2 sp , you wanna add like .2 resistance for your pre filter.

So your blower blows like 965cm @ free air.  You need to find what it blows at 1.2 sp. If its under 400cm then the blower probably isn't strong enough. If its higher you could probably increAse the plenum and choke the intake some


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Edited by mushpunx (11/05/15 05:36 PM)


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: mushpunx]
    #22482288 - 11/05/15 06:15 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

looks like i'm short onthe blower specs, will be working on this in the near future


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22482457 - 11/05/15 06:49 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Cue...
Just my opinion.. If you had a 6" deep filter instead of the 12" filter your blower would be close to ball park and you would have enough space for your plenum. I just don't see how your 12" deep filter going to give you 1" static pressure.(Laminar Flow) with your blower..

Here is some specs. on your filter I believe...

there is also this... 
Standard High Capacity
Operating AstroCel I AstroCel I HCX
Comparison 24" x 24" x 111/2" 24" x 24" x 111/2"
Rated Airflow Capacity 1450 CFM 2000 CFM
@ 1.4 in. w.g. (350 Pa) initial resistance (2465 m3/hr.) (3400 m3/hr.)
Rated Airflow Capacity 1050 CFM 1500 CFM
@ 1.0 in. w.g. (250 Pa) initial resistance (1785 m3/hr.) (2550 m3/hr.)
Service Life Ratio 1.0 2.0
@ 1000 CFM (1700 m3/hr.)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16382679#16382679


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: micelio]
    #22482503 - 11/05/15 06:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

RR Note:
    Some of the newer HEPA filters flow higher than we want at 1" of
    static pressure.  In these cases, you need to run at a lower static
    pressure, because you really don't want more than 100 feet per minute
    leaving your hood.

    Based on the specs above, I'd go with the 6" deep filter because it
    has higher resistance.  The resistance is what helps achieve laminar
    flow by creating pressure on the back side of the filter.  If every
    inch of the back side is under pressure, the air flows smoothly out
    the front side.

    I'd go with the 6" filter and a blower rated at 450 cfm @ 1" W.G.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16376949#16376949


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Edited by micelio (11/05/15 07:01 PM)


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: micelio]
    #22482999 - 11/05/15 08:37 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

That was my plan. I'm trying to find a 24x24x6 filter, but FP seems to be the only location at this time. Also looking at ordering another fan.

Thankfully, there's plenty of uses for fans around on the farm, so the old one will probably be put to good use keeping the milking vacuum pump cool.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22483272 - 11/05/15 09:27 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Dayton 1TDU2 PSC Blower is 249.99 at Amazon.. 70.00 dollars cheaper than FP..  http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/universal-blower-1040-cfm-8-sp.html

I had to block the intake a little to get the right flame angle.
The blower is probably 20% over which is good for when the filter get clog up in a few years you'll have the extra muscle. 

:thumbup:


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: micelio] * 2
    #22483639 - 11/05/15 10:34 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Iboth no man Id just build a new hood. If your blower is wrong for a 24 x 24 x 12 it will be wrong for 24 x 24 x 6. I know the plenum would be right but that's it
if you are are changing out blower too that's another story. You could actually use your existing blower and hood as a scrubber for a room

Both 12" and 6" will be the same for everything except plenum depth. It doesnt matter what the HEPA is you will still be figuring for 1" resistance and .2" for pre filter.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: mushpunx]
    #22484386 - 11/06/15 04:01 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Agreed. Went and ordered a new fan and filter. Will probably run the other one as the room filter until we're milking again come springtime. Then I'll steal it for the vacuum pump. Thanks for all your help.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22543787 - 11/18/15 08:05 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I realize this is a little bit of an old thread, but I think I've found the reason you're having FH issues and I wanted to chime in.  Full disclosure, I'm only in the process of building a FH now and I've never owned one.  However, I do have a science degree and have worked as a math teacher, so my comments are simply coming from my education in those disciplines, not my knowledge of mycology. 

You stated your filter is 24" x 24" x 12", for a total of 4 square feet of surface area.  Per Stamets, your ideal linear flow should be 100 FPM.  In your situation, this equates to a volume/minute of 400 CFM (4 square feet x 100 FPM). 

The Astrocel brochure you posted references two models in the airflow graphs on page 3, the Astrocel I and the Astrocel I HCX.  I'm assuming you have the Astrocel I and not the HCX.  At 400 CFM (according to the graph), your filter experiences ~.35" of static pressure.  From RR, your static pressure should be between .8" and 1.2" to achieve laminar flow.

Quote:

Cue said:
The filter actually says .9", the .96" was from the Dayton spec sheet for the fan




The label on the filter is correct.  However, the line underneath the static pressure indicates that this was calculated at a Test Flow of 1000 CFM, two and a half times the amount of airflow you want.  That's why your flame is blowing out.  Static pressure of the filter depends on the amount of air being forced through, it's not a fixed quantity.  When you drop that 1000 CFM down to 400 CFM, you've decreased your CFM to 40% of the Test Flow.  Because Airflow vs. Pressure is fairly linear, you've also decreased your pressure to 40% of .9" (or .36").  This is in line with what the manufacturer graph says.

Quote:

mushpunx said:
Both 12" and 6" will be the same for everything except plenum depth. It doesnt matter what the HEPA is you will still be figuring for 1" resistance and .2" for pre filter.




With respect to your post count, the 12" and 6" gives the filter very different characteristics.  From page 1 of the brochure, the 6" model (5 7/8") achieves 1.0" @ 125 FPM (this equates to 500 CFM for a 4 sq. foot filter).  The 12" (11 1/2") model achieves 1.0" @ 250 FPM (this is 1,000 CFM).  This is what micelio was alluding to earlier,

Quote:

micelio said:
From what I understand is: The 12"deep Hepa filter is for filtering rooms. It lets twice the air through than the 6" filter.
That could be why you have high velocity without much back pressure (Static pressure)

...These filters are 6" deep.. I'm not sure if you can get laminar flow with the 12" deep filter with this blower..




Fortunately, as I stated above, Airflow vs. Pressure is a fairly linear relationship for filters (e.g. double the airflow, double the pressure/halve the airflow, halve the pressure), so we can assume that if we reduce the airflow for the 6" Astrocel by 20%, a 20% reduction in pressure will occur.  From the characteristics of the 6" filter listed above, 1.0" @ 125 FPM becomes .8" @ 100 FPM, which is within the ideal range of pressure and airflow for a flow hood. 

Unfortunately, blower CFM vs. Pressure isn't really linear (like you said, .96" for the blower equates to 200 CFM).  If you plan on using a pre-filter that adds .2", this fan won't cut it.  However, at .8", I imagine your blower is right at the 400 CFM mark.  If you're willing to ditch the pre-filter and eliminate the extra .2" that it adds, your blower is probably perfect for the 6" Astrocel I.

For what it's worth.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: shroombasa]
    #22544216 - 11/18/15 09:33 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I dunno man Im pretty sure you could achieve laminar flow with the 12" thick HEPA , you just need a deeper plenum. At least the very least 12" in the plenum to create an even static pressure within, without turbulence. More would be better.

I think that a 24x24x12 would do just fine with a blower matched to a 24x24x6, provided you build the hood with a larger plenum.

Thats the way I undetstand it haha. Honestly I dont pretend to have past a basic knowledge of this stuff. I built my hood and it works beautifully and I am grateful for that haha


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: mushpunx]
    #22544271 - 11/18/15 09:48 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

is that you cue?


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: mushpunx]
    #22544606 - 11/18/15 11:02 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mushpunx said:
I dunno man Im pretty sure you could achieve laminar flow with the 12" thick HEPA , you just need a deeper plenum. At least the very least 12" in the plenum to create an even static pressure within, without turbulence. More would be better.

I think that a 24x24x12 would do just fine with a blower matched to a 24x24x6, provided you build the hood with a larger plenum.

Thats the way I undetstand it haha. Honestly I dont pretend to have past a basic knowledge of this stuff. I built my hood and it works beautifully and I am grateful for that haha



I really hadn't thought a whole lot about the size of the plenum.  That's good food for thought.

That's awesome that your flow hood is working for you.  Like I said, I don't have one (yet), so I can't help but envy your freedom not having to G2G in a SAB. 

The filter is the biggest issue I've been having.  I can't seem to find anything reasonable in a 2' x 2' that has enough static pressure at low airflow.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: shroombasa]
    #22545078 - 11/19/15 01:47 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well what I've been told is the filters dont have a static pressure. The static pressure listed on every filter is what they tested at when using a particle counter to confirm its quality.


What you probably want is a 24 x 24 x 6 HEPA, build a hood with at least a 6" plenum (Id go bigger) and a blower that blows at least 400 cfm at an SP of 1.2 (.2 added for the prefilter) .

Fungi Perfecti charges too much for the blowers but the filter price is fair.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: micelio]
    #22545127 - 11/19/15 02:43 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm a little late to the party, but here are the specs for that filter from FP:
The 24x24x5.8 Filter info: HEPA-SEP
Model STD 242405PEADC50
584 @ 1.0" max. w.G. Pressure Drop
DOP .010max
99.99% Efficient

It's hard to say with certainty if the 1TDT5 blower is enough because it doesn't show in the specs and I wouldn't automatically count on it, but the pattern looks close.

Based on my basic understanding, the 12" filters aren't recommended for hoods because they loose their effectiveness, or efficiency, at the air velocity or volume (not sure which is technically correct) needed for 100cfm laminar output.

The more air pressure you put on filters, the less effective they are because smaller particulates can be pushed through. If I understand what I've researched, the lower SP of 12" filters are more susceptible to increased air flow inefficiencies. I imagine this becomes more of a problem over time as the layers get build-up.

I'm still trying to get a firm grasp on this because the lower SP of the 12" means lower air volume or velocity required. The only way I can think to explain this is "that goes to show how much more susceptible they are."


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #22545302 - 11/19/15 05:47 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Hey SBJ!

I was confused on this vefore and this is how it was explained to me:

"The filter itself does not have a static pressure. 
the static pressure we are concerned with is in the plenum. 

12" filters are not good because you need at least 12" in the plenum to create an even static pressure within, without turbulence. 

a 6" filter only requires 6" in the plenum, or more. obviously more is better. 

a 12" filter will have a longer working life than a 6" filter. 

the sp listed on every filter is what they tested at when using a particle counter to confirm it quality."


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: mushpunx]
    #22545355 - 11/19/15 06:30 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It's a weird thing that apparently HVAC guys have a hard time explaining to customers, too.

The filter doesn't have a static pressure, but there is a measure of how much resistant the filter has to airflow, and that measurement is refereed to as static pressure.

I've found many explanations similar to this one.

http://www.pureairsystems.com/Pure-Air-University-103-Filtrat1.html

"Static Pressure - Pressure Drop - Resistance the Most Important Variable in Air Filter Application and Air Handler Design

Okay, so you've heard about pressure drop or static pressure or resistance as it relates to air filters or perhaps even duct work. Well…..listen up. Static pressure or resistance affects EVERYTHING in air handling. It is the ONE variable that dictates the design and performance of any air moving device and the air filters that are used in those devices.

Simply stated, pressure drop or static pressure is the amount of resistance as measured in inches of water (w.g.), that is produced when air is moved through an air filter, an air duct or any device that can impede the air flow and cause resistance."

As it pertains to hoods, the static pressure, as a measure as described above, is how the pressure will build up in the plenum. The plenum is to build pressure evenly, with low turbulence, behind the filter so you have laminar flow coming out the front. A filter with a low SP, such as .1 of a pre-filter, will allow very little pressure to build in the plenum.

I'm not an expert by any means, but this is my understanding and I'm certainly open for correction. The guy at FP told me filters don't have an SP and offered the same explanation you did and IIRC, RR has said the same thing. I imagine the truth lies in a combination of both our understandings.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #22545489 - 11/19/15 07:31 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

"Filters don't 'have' static pressure.  They apply a resistance across the airflow which causes the static pressure.

Filters are usually rated by how much flow will pass through the filter at a given static pressure. (resistance)
RR"

RR is more or less arguing over the semantics of using the word "have" to describe filters and pressure.  It's like saying that a cloud "has" rain.  Air flowing through a filter causes static pressure; cold air combining with a cloud causes rain.  These things are effects we observe, not intrinsic properties.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #22545491 - 11/19/15 07:33 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Honestly dude I have a very limited understanding of this stuff too and you're probably right I think it's some of both of our understandings.

I still think the math would work out the same though, you could match a blower that blows at least 400CFM at 1.2sp to a filter that is 24 x 24 x 12, if you built the hood with a plenum of a depth greater than 12"


Cool info you guys are posting! Im trying to understand this stuff myself. A lot of people ask me about my flow hood and the only advice I can offer is pretty basic stuff about the actual hood build and wiring, stuff like that. I can figure out how to match blowers and fans but that's it :shrug:


I dont see you in Mush Cult much anymore dude I miss your input!


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: mushpunx]
    #22545581 - 11/19/15 08:15 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

drake89 uses a 12" deep hepa I believe, he hangs out on the GMM forum.  I think he could clear things up.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #22546740 - 11/19/15 01:02 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
I'm a little late to the party, but here are the specs for that filter from FP:
The 24x24x5.8 Filter info: HEPA-SEP
Model STD 242405PEADC50
584 @ 1.0" max. w.G. Pressure Drop
DOP .010max
99.99% Efficient

It's hard to say with certainty if the 1TDT5 blower is enough because it doesn't show in the specs and I wouldn't automatically count on it, but the pattern looks close.

Based on my basic understanding, the 12" filters aren't recommended for hoods because they loose their effectiveness, or efficiency, at the air velocity or volume (not sure which is technically correct) needed for 100cfm laminar output.

The more air pressure you put on filters, the less effective they are because smaller particulates can be pushed through. If I understand what I've researched, the lower SP of 12" filters are more susceptible to increased air flow inefficiencies. I imagine this becomes more of a problem over time as the layers get build-up.

I'm still trying to get a firm grasp on this because the lower SP of the 12" means lower air volume or velocity required. The only way I can think to explain this is "that goes to show how much more susceptible they are."




Here's the Technical Specs for the 1TDT5 blower:

http://www.grainger.com/product/DAYTON-Rectangular-OEM-Blower-Without-1TDT5?nls=3&ssf=3&searchQuery=1TDT5


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: micelio]
    #22548685 - 11/19/15 08:00 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

the specs only show CFM up to .6" Sp.

Some fans drop off dramatically at higher SP. I wouldn't spend that much money unless I could verify it will work first.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #22550870 - 11/20/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
the specs only show CFM up to .6" Sp.

Some fans drop off dramatically at higher SP. I wouldn't spend that much money unless I could verify it will work first.



Dramatically, indeed. http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/content/Dayton/blower_specs/ITDT5.pdf


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: shroombasa]
    #22556248 - 11/21/15 04:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Just to button up, I had bought a fan that would supply the required amount of airflow (believe it was the 1tdu2 but I'm not looking at it now) and a 24x24x6" filter. Constructed a few days ago. Worked in front of it today, but leaving on vacation for a week. Will know how everything turned out when we get back. Perhaps I will have photos.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22635217 - 12/09/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I've done 2 sets of g2g transfers since the week before thanksgiving. First set I had 75% success, I attributed the loss to removing the tin foil off the jars before cooling, second set is 100% success. Will have a less biased opinion in the future, but already these changes have made me fee a lot better.

Glad to have fixed what was causing me so much stress.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22635438 - 12/09/15 06:50 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup: Keep us updated...  We all like success stories....


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22636276 - 12/09/15 09:44 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cue said:
I've done 2 sets of g2g transfers since the week before thanksgiving. First set I had 75% success, I attributed the loss to removing the tin foil off the jars before cooling, second set is 100% success. Will have a less biased opinion in the future, but already these changes have made me fee a lot better.

Glad to have fixed what was causing me so much stress.




Successfully fruited or just seems like clean spawn so far?

What do you think your problem was until this time?


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: mushpunx]
    #22637093 - 12/10/15 04:13 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Clean spawn. I'm betting the problem was the 12" deep filter with the too small of a plenum, along with a fan that didn't have enough power to push through it. Effectively this was just blowing contaminates into my work. I built an entirely new hood, and am using the old one as the room filter. Also, I had been removing the foil from the lids before they cooled.

Lastly, I stopped using wbs, as the most recent Bach was mostly sunflower seeds, which I know can work, but I just didn't seem to like them. I'm now using oats, which are closer to home, cheaper, and easier to buy in bulk.

I haven't had any real issues with spawning to bulk and fruiting in the past, I've just been getting hung up before that step. I will report on how the fruiting goes the next few times.


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Cue]
    #22637355 - 12/10/15 07:11 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cue said:
I attributed the loss to removing the tin foil off the jars before cooling



What kind of filters are you using on your jars?


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Re: Repeated failure with flow hood [Re: Juiceh]
    #22643567 - 12/11/15 05:48 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I have some tyvek and some sfds


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