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Wunnbaddmofo
Vagabond
Registered: 11/02/15
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Web page hosting from a old comp at home
#22472132 - 11/03/15 05:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok, so I have been studying up on web page design and development through youtube videos and tutorials. I would like to design a page with dreamweaver and host it on a spare machine I have laying around. I have an old Sony Vaio and an e-machine or two. I would like to know where to begin. Should I use the Sony or the E-machine ? Should I run Windows Server or linux and Apache or something ? And why? Any simple advice would be appreciated. I plan on continuing this thread as I progress through the steps of building the page..
-------------------- Deo Vindici God Save the South
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22476140 - 11/04/15 11:51 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Best setup would be Debian Linux (or Slackware if you feel masochistic and want to compile a custom kernel) just because it's the easiest. You can set it up without a UI even, and just use apt to install apache. You could setup a shh daemon so you can use another computer to drop the files in the right folder (I think it is called public by default) and if it's just a flat site you really don't need to do anything else. If you do setup sshd you probably want to configure iptables to only allow ports 22 and 80, and 443 if you are using SSL (I have no idea why you would do that on a flat site, though) and only from the IP address(es) of your other machines.
The reason I say use Debian is it is very stable, you can run it just fine on old hardware, even with X and it is very secure,
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: micro]
#22476316 - 11/04/15 12:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Should I use the Sony or the E-machine ?
Doesn't really matter, but I personally wouldn't use a laptop as a web server. On the other hand, the Vaio is probably a bit less power hungry than the desktop machine. The difference will be around 50-100W (rought estimate), which is something like 450-900kWh per year, or $50-$100.
Quote:
Should I run Windows Server or linux and Apache or something ?
Doesn't really matter either; for convenience's sake I'd stick with Apache, but it runs equally well on Windows (doesn't even need to be Server edition either) as it does on Linux. Pick whichever OS you feel the most comfortable with - or, if you want to experiment, pick the OS you'd like to learn more about.
The most important thing is, if you want to be able to access your website from outside your house, to have a fixed IP address and to open the appropriate ports on your router and route them using NAT to the IP address of your web server. Make sure the web server has a fixed IP address on the local network as well.
Edited by koraks (11/04/15 12:21 PM)
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Wunnbaddmofo
Vagabond
Registered: 11/02/15
Posts: 94
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: koraks]
#22476487 - 11/04/15 01:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I most definitely want it to be able to be accessed from the web, not just my home wifi. So you're saying I need to Tweek the settings on my Verizon router to do this?
The Vaio is a desktop, so are the e-machines. they were used as office servers for copiers and faxes. I was thinking of using linux tail and Apache on the server. Although I just started reading up on this so I could be totally off about the hardware and software I need. Would Linux Tail and Apache be all that I need to get this site online?
I feel like I should add I have always used windows, this would be my first time using any linux or unix os.
Also Im a new user so I cant rate shrooms, but as soon as I can I will be giving out 5 shroom ratings to anyone who offers some insight into my situation.
-------------------- Deo Vindici God Save the South
Edited by Wunnbaddmofo (11/04/15 01:12 PM)
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Oggy
Stranger Danger


Registered: 12/05/14
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22476526 - 11/04/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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You can run apache on windows. Honestly, it makes little difference to run it on linux or windows. You'll need to open port 80 for the local ip to that machine, then if you want a .com website you'll need to buy a domain name and have it routed to your public IP.
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Edited by Oggy (11/04/15 01:18 PM)
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Oggy]
#22476547 - 11/04/15 01:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Either way, make sure the software you use is always up to date, otherwise you'll be sending out spam and participating in DDoS attacks before you can say "security". You'll probably only find out when your ISP blocks your connection.
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Byrain

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 9,664
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: micro]
#22476705 - 11/04/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
micro said: (or Slackware if you feel masochistic and want to compile a custom kernel)
Not true, slackware provides a huge kernel that is used during the install process and a generic kernel for more everyday use which only requires making an initrd.gz which is pretty easy. Additionally they provide the kernel source for those that want a custom kernel, although there is really no need unless you want to.
http://docs.slackware.com/slackware:beginners_guide#switch_to_a_generic_kernel http://packages.slackware.com/?r=slackware64-current&p=kernel-huge-4.1.12-x86_64-1.txz http://packages.slackware.com/?r=slackware64-current&p=kernel-generic-4.1.12-x86_64-1.txz http://packages.slackware.com/?r=slackware64-current&p=kernel-source-4.1.12-noarch-1.txz
Also, debian sucks.
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Oggy]
#22479167 - 11/05/15 12:53 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Byrain said: (or Slackware if you feel masochistic and want to compile a custom kernel)
Not true, slackware provides a huge kernel that is used during the install process and a generic kernel for more everyday use which only requires making an initrd.gz which is pretty easy. Additionally they provide the kernel source for those that want a custom kernel, although there is really no need unless you want to.
What's not true? I didn't make any assertion...
Slackware is designed for this which is why they are so picky about things like using distribution-specific patches. It could be advisable to compile your own custom kernel if you are OCD about performance and memory usage, or trying to milk old hardware for what it's worth. I'm not sure why else someone would choose it for running a server.
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Byrain said: Also, debian sucks.
... and context is awesome 
Care to elaborate on that?
It is tested more thoroughly than any of the other distros which is why the current stable release *never* supports bleeding-edge hardware. It is definitely stable though; I've had Debian boxes stay on for over a year on old non-server hardware. The only times they shut off were due to some hardware or power failure. Also, IME Debian runs faster than any other distro (without compiling the kernel) out of the box for old hardware.
So this is why I recommended it to be used in this case, on old hardware.
Maybe you could elaborate on the suckiness :V
I'm curious, especially since other distros like Ubuntu and Kali are forks of it.
Quote:
Oggy said: You can run apache on windows. Honestly, it makes little difference to run it on linux or windows. You'll need to open port 80 for the local ip to that machine, then if you want a .com website you'll need to buy a domain name and have it routed to your public IP.
Same thing here; *nix is going to be more stable and it will run better on older hardware. Newer versions of Windows and OSX are simply resource hogs. Not for nothing, I'm sure there are many great features that require this (security is a feature in Windows, right? :V) but when I put something like Debian or Kali on an older box that had Mac/Win on it the thing FLYS.
Good point people made about the router; I should have thought of mentioning that but yeah, supplement my original post with "iptables and your router configuration." It's generally just a web page at 192.168.1.1 or whatever the default gateway is (route print in windows or route in *nix to find out). This is easy; there should be a section on port forwarding and you only need 80 for HTTP, really. If you setup SSL then also 443 and sshd is 22.
The thing is, if this is your first time setting up a server *and* using Linux you don't want to bite off more than you can chew. I've been dealing with both for almost two decades now, but I remember setting up a server for the first time when I was like 14 or 15 and had quite a bit of frustration. That said, I find Linux to be easiest and I can do it in just about no time at all but maybe part of that is because I'm more used to Linux at this point to begin with.
And also, yes -- you need to pay for a custom domain but in the meantime (or instead) you could just use the public IP of the router (not the local IP that starts with 192, 10 or 172). Just go to http://255.255.255.255 replacing the 255's with the proper octet.
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
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Byrain

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 9,664
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: micro]
#22479375 - 11/05/15 03:19 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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You implied that someone would need to compile a custom kernel for slackware, this is simply not true, it makes it easy for users to do just that (Unlike ubuntu), but by no means is it required and the precompiled kernels will work fine for most users. Slackware would make a great server since it has most everything someone would need out of the box, doesn't have the huge attack surface of systemd/k3b/pam/etc. and is highly flexible for any potential system admins while still being extremely simple. Also, I imagine with one year of using seriously using slackware a user would gain the experience of several years of debian usage. There are more than enough reasons to claim why debian sucks to fill up dozens of pages and delve into several somewhat off-topic discussions, but since I don't really care to get that deep into an off-hand comment I will just leave it at binary logs, LOL. Also while I'm at it even sid is old, debian's packaging tools (Arguably by design) suck for managing stuff built from source while making your own packages is far more complicated than it should ever need to be. Slackbuilds are a lot easier, more fun and compiling your own packages tends to lead to better working software.
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Byrain]
#22479524 - 11/05/15 05:25 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Byrain said: You implied that someone would need to compile a custom kernel for slackware
No I didn't. I said use Slackware if he wanted to do that.
Don't put words into my mouth :V
Quote:
Byrain said: Slackware would make a great server since it has most everything someone would need out of the box, doesn't have the huge attack surface of systemd/k3b/pam/etc. and is highly flexible for any potential system admins while still being extremely simple.
Everything needed as in... Apache httpd? Same with all distros; that's not much.
Debian's installer even has an option to install it as a server and includes all the common packages by default.
K3b the CD burning utility o.O? I totally don't understand where you're going with that.
I was never a huge fan of systemd myself, but I don't see any vector of attack in this context (running a web server).
Maybe you could elaborate or point to a proof of concept if one even exists.
That said, it is technically not required and there is a version of Debian that doesn't even use it by default.
PAM is a library and any security related issues would come from user error.
Unless you are talking about bugs, and anything can have bugs.
More thoroughly tested stuff with a longer release cycle for this reason will have fewer bugs. Like.... Debian!
It's not really easier for system admins either since the vast majority IME are not used to it.
Enough is different for it to have a learning curve.
It also lacks features such as a package manager :V
(sarcasm intended)
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Also, I imagine with one year of using seriously using slackware a user would gain the experience of several years of debian usage.
Using one distro doesn't teach you how to use a different one.
The best way to learn Debian is to use... Debian :V
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There are more than enough reasons to claim why debian sucks to fill up dozens of pages and delve into several somewhat off-topic discussions, but since I don't really care to get that deep into an off-hand comment I will just leave it at binary logs, LOL.
I'm happy that you're happy LOL but that was done for faster searching.
What are you even referring to, anyway? Are we still on the topic of systemd?
Or MySQL?
And who cares? Is this problem using custom tools to parse the logs or something?
If so, people can write a function for the format according to specs.
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Also while I'm at it even sid is old, debian's packaging tools (Arguably by design) suck for managing stuff built from source while making your own packages is far more complicated than it should ever need to be.
You've GOT to be kidding me. Versus pkgtool?
Okay, first off there is no dependency checking (which is kinda the point of a package manager). Anyone who has compiled software before has dealt with the inevitable dependency recursion which is why package managers build a dependency tree. Also, you can find a ton of software in rpm or deb but you aren't going to for Slackware. These alone say "no way is it easier, by any stretch of the imagination."
So yeah, no shit it's easy since there is so little to keep track of. Also, who cares about adding stuff you compile, anyway? You have to deal with the dependencies yourself on either of them. I fail to see the advantage of adding it to APT here.
I already explained why they don't update the distro as frequently: it promotes better stability and arguably security, as well.
So, all in all:
It is not easier to use than Debian. It is not more secure than Debian. It is not more stable than Debian.
The main advantage I see is in compiling your own kernel, which only obsessive people do, anyway :V
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
Edited by micro (11/05/15 05:51 AM)
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Byrain

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 9,664
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: micro]
#22480161 - 11/05/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sorry, not k3b, krb... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerberos_%28protocol%29
I didn't put words in your mouth, here is a quote, "or Slackware if you feel masochistic and want to compile a custom kernel". If you didn't mean to imply that someone needs a custom kernel then fine, but your phrasing arguably leads to that conclusion. Anyways, like I said I don't really care, your lack of understanding doesn't make debian any less sucky and I'm not here to spoon feed you the reasons. Though, since you really seem so clueless I'll help a little, binary logs is an obvious reference to journald. Next time your debian/red hat os crashes and fails to boot (Just wait till the systemd devs decide to change the upstream configs), try mounting its drive to look at the logs with a os that doesn't have journald... Besides standard unix tools to look at text based logs are way better than systemctl. As for packages SBo seems to offer a lot more software than debian's repo while it generally works better since all the packages will be compiled against your own system than a generic upstream build, debian only makes it look like it offers more packages by splitting every package into 5 parts. Only Arch and gentoo seem to have more, but arch sacrifices stability and sanity to be cutting edge and culturally relevant while gentoo doesn't provide the rock-solid base system slackware has while giving more powerful packaging tools in return. As I have already said, its hell of a lot harder to make a .deb package than a slackbuild and hard coded dependencies only lead to a less flexible system. I'd rather not have the package manager second guess me when I want to remove something and to be able to (re)compile any packages on my system with ease to ensure it works, help find possible bugs/issues, and to update/downgrade any packages without relying upon the package maintainer.
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Byrain]
#22480358 - 11/05/15 09:46 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Byrain said: I didn't put words in your mouth, here is a quote, "or Slackware if you feel masochistic and want to compile a custom kernel".
"want"
Quote:
Byrain said: If you didn't mean to imply that someone needs a custom kernel then fine
"want"
jeebus, lol... i can't tell if:
a.) you do not understand there is a difference between want and need
b.) you are blatantly ignoring what is obviously right there in front of you (hint: you quoted it)
c.) you be trollin'
Quote:
Byrain said: Anyways, like I said I don't really care, your lack of understanding doesn't make debian any less sucky and I'm not here to spoon feed you the reasons.
For someone who doesn't care you sure do QQ a lot :V
I'm spoon feeding what you quoted right back to you and you still don't seem to get it. For example:
Quote:
Byrain said: Though, since you really seem so clueless I'll help a little, binary logs is an obvious reference to journald.
Oh, so *it is* systemd we are talking about. Just like I said! Wow 
You know how I know this? Because despite your arrogant assumption that "binary logs is an obvious reference to journald" it actually isn't. MySQL for example uses binary logging by default but doesn't use jounald.
So yeah. I'm totally clueless there, buddy :V
o.O
Quote:
Next time your debian/red hat os crashes and fails to boot
Don't worry, it won't 
Quote:
try mounting its drive to look at the logs with a os that doesn't have journald...
Now why would I do a silly thing like that 
Quote:
As for packages SBo seems to offer a lot more software than debian's repo while it generally works better since all the packages will be compiled against your own system than a generic upstream build, debian only makes it look like it offers more packages by splitting every package into 5 parts.
Learn how to add more repositories.
The reason you are seeing this is Debian is nuts about "free" and "non-free" software.
Look at how they re-branded Firefox to Iceweasel, for example.
There are a TON of repos with that stuff though, especially since Ubuntu, Kali and I think more of the popular distros are forks of it.
Quote:
As I have already said, its hell of a lot harder to make a .deb package than a slackbuild and hard coded dependencies only lead to a less flexible system. I'd rather not have the package manager second guess me when I want to remove something and to be able to (re)compile any packages on my system with ease to ensure it works, help find possible bugs/issues, and to update/downgrade any packages without relying upon the package maintainer.
So you would rather use a package manager that basically does nothing except acts like an installation script. Okay 
By the way, you can use the force flag, you know...
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
Edited by micro (11/05/15 09:52 AM)
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Wunnbaddmofo
Vagabond
Registered: 11/02/15
Posts: 94
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Byrain]
#22480423 - 11/05/15 10:06 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok, well I have decided that since this is my first attempt at hosting my own site, I will be installing the newest version of Ubuntu and Lamp. Which from what I understand contains Apache, Mysql, and Php. From the tutorials it looked very easy to do. Just installing the OS and then a few commands which appear to install the things needed for the server to run. I know I sound like I'm clueless,I'm still not exactly sure what Mysql or php are or what they do.. but I do have more experience with comps than the average person. As I mentioned before, I have absolutely no experience with Linux, and I am also trying to learn HTML CSS, and Java, Dreamweaver for the site, Photoshop and fireworks for the graphics all at the same time as doing this. So please be patient if some of my questions are remedial, but if its something I haven't had to do yet for my own setup, I don't know how to do it.
So that being said, Do you guys think Ubuntu and lamp would be an acceptable way to go ?
Im currently comparing specs on the four machines I have laying around, as well as letting them run for a while to make sure they dont shut off, {I could have sworn one or two had cooling issues that caused them to reboot or shut down occasionally}. These machines are all running XPro.
Should I do a dual boot type thing and keep XPro on there for some reason ? Or should I totally wipe the machine and do a clean install of Ubuntu as the only OS ? Also is there any reason the server machine needs its own monitor and input devices ? Can't I just control it remotely from my laptop ? I know with windows that is easy to do, not sure about Linux though.
While reading the reply's you guys left I realized there is a ton that I have yet to learn. Because quite a bit of all of that was over my head, although every bit of info offered is greatly appreciated. It prompted me to learn what a kernel is and start reading up on Debian and Slackware.
-------------------- Deo Vindici God Save the South
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22480471 - 11/05/15 10:18 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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You don't need a LAMP stack if you are just making a flat site.
Are you making something that will require custom server-side code or persistence?
I would not dual-boot on a server. That is redundant.
I'm not sure what XPro is, however.
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
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Wunnbaddmofo
Vagabond
Registered: 11/02/15
Posts: 94
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: micro]
#22480554 - 11/05/15 10:38 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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XPRo is Windows Xp Professional.
Im not sure what you mean flat site? I want it to be interactive eventually, with user accounts and personalized settings. My site is going to be a current event/news/popular media site.
As far as custom code, i hope not, the only language I know is HTML, I don't know any programming languages yet.
-------------------- Deo Vindici God Save the South
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22480865 - 11/05/15 11:58 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wunnbaddmofo said: XPRo is Windows Xp Professional.
Im not sure what you mean flat site? I want it to be interactive eventually, with user accounts and personalized settings. My site is going to be a current event/news/popular media site.
As far as custom code, i hope not, the only language I know is HTML, I don't know any programming languages yet.
If you want it to have user accounts you will need server-side logic and persistence.
Unless, depending on your needs, you choose to go with something like Drupal.
Unless you're going to grab RSS feeds and the like, you'll probably be storing articles this way (or possibly NoSQL would be better in this case). It would be pretty easy to come up with a XSL transformation for that and whatever other formats you decide to support. Or if you want, on the back end use Saxon or something.
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
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Jean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,178
Loc: New Mexico, USA
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: micro]
#22481009 - 11/05/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
micro said:
Quote:
Byrain said: I didn't put words in your mouth, here is a quote, "or Slackware if you feel masochistic and want to compile a custom kernel".
"want"
Quote:
Byrain said: If you didn't mean to imply that someone needs a custom kernel then fine
"want"
jeebus, lol... i can't tell if:
a.) you do not understand there is a difference between want and need
b.) you are blatantly ignoring what is obviously right there in front of you (hint: you quoted it)
c.) you be trollin'
Sorry micro...but your wording was very misleading.
For example, the way you worded your sentence can be reworded the following way: "You can try buying Popsicles, or you could buy icecream if you are masochistic and want to eat razor blades."
Now, for a person who has no knowledge pertaining to the nature of frozen treats, you have taken a concept that is completely optional (eating razor blades), and causally linked it to buying ice cream. You are implying that the only way to buy ice cream is to eat razor blades. There is no place for "need" in this sentence, otherwise it would have to be reworded in order to make any sense in this context.
Next time this sort of situation comes up, if compiling your own kernel is a completely optional choice, independant from using Slackware...then maybe you should word it as such:
"...or Slackware, if you are masochistic and want the option of compiling a custom kernel."
This is a little off topic, and I know nothing about what you guys are talking about...but I interpreted that sentence the same way as Byrain, and I'm fairly certain most people who are unfamiliar with Debian or Slackware would do the same. Don't be so hard on Byrain for trying to clear up a murky statement.
That's all I have to add to this thread.
-------------------- The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
#22481731 - 11/05/15 04:13 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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What, are you his boyfriend? :V
I'm not going to pussyfoot around my words because someone might make an incorrect assumption based on nothing whatever. Your wording of the statement changes my entire point, anyway. I didn't recommend Slackware in case they did or didn't want it (i.e. wanted it as an option) but rather in the event that they did. Your wording:
"...or Slackware, if you are masochistic and want the option of compiling a custom kernel."
... implies the former. "Use this distro if you want to compile a custom kernel" does not, in any way, imply "Using this distro requires you to..." Anyone who *assumes that is the case* is making a huge assumption about something I never said. And why would wanting an option to be available make someone a masochist? That doesn't even make sense. See why it doesn't work?
I'm certainly not "being so hard" on anyone, either; he said I'm "clueless."
Although I find it a bit humorous as this is my profession, I'm not going to refrain from telling someone they are wrong, especially after pulling THAT card =P
Or simply *being* a card >.>
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
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Sun King



Registered: 02/15/14
Posts: 4,069
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22481919 - 11/05/15 04:49 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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How come no one suggested windows iis?
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Jean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,178
Loc: New Mexico, USA
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: micro]
#22482282 - 11/05/15 06:13 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
micro said: What, are you his boyfriend? :V
Good comment, you seem like a mature fellow who is willing to accept constructive feedback. Yep, no insecurities or ego here 
Quote:
micro said: I'm not going to pussyfoot around my words because someone might make an incorrect assumption based on nothing whatever.
If that is the case, then perhaps you should refrain from offering advice to people. I don't doubt that you are probably the most qualified person on the OP's topic, but your lack of ability to properly communicate said knowledge (or even form complete sentences) makes you a source of disinformation, as the majority of users that read your original sentence will misinterpret its meaning. Its as simple as that. I'm not trying to insult you, rather I'm trying to point out that you are misleading people with poorly-worded advice, and subsequently being a dick to others when they point it out.
Quote:
micro said: Your wording of the statement changes my entire point, anyway. I didn't recommend Slackware in case they did or didn't want it (i.e. wanted it as an option) but rather in the event that they did. Your wording:
"...or Slackware, if you are masochistic and want the option of compiling a custom kernel."
... implies the former. "Use this distro if you want to compile a custom kernel" does not, in any way, imply "Using this distro requires you to..." Anyone who *assumes that is the case* is making a huge assumption about something I never said. And why would wanting an option to be available make someone a masochist? That doesn't even make sense. See why it doesn't work?
 Yes, this is my point. Anyone who assumes this interpretation is indeed making an assumption about what you are saying, because you did not supply enough information for anyone to do otherwise. To interpret general discussion on internet forums without making assumptions would make all information impossible to understand, and your argument against making said assumptions is wholly impractical.
YOU made the initial assumption that someone who is seeking "any simple advice" would automatically know enough background information to know what you are thinking. In the absence of such background information, the reader is forced to assume implied meaning based on the vernacular, that being the way a phrase or sentence would be used by the vast majority of people with a current understanding of the English language. To imply that we should have guessed your meaning with so little information is foolish.
Your breakdown of my suggestion is also a matter of majority interpretation. The sentence implies that if the user does, in fact, want the option to compile a custom kernel, then they intend to actually compile said kernel at some point (otherwise why would you bring it up?), and thus you consider them to be masochistic. It also makes it abundantly clear that choosing to use Slackware does not necessarily mean that you are forced to compile a custom kernel, which is not clear in your original wording without knowing what you were thinking at the time that you wrote it.
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micro said: I'm certainly not "being so hard" on anyone, either; he said I'm "clueless."
That is true, but since you seem to be moderately intelligent in a general sense, highly qualified in the OPs topic, and have made it clear in previous threads that you are several decades old at the very least...that you would be mature enough to realize that your wording was misinterpreted, and elaborate/discuss the issue without spewing your over-inflated ego all over the thread and aggravating the situation with sarcasm and condescension. You could have reworded and/or explained your point in a different way, and diffused the situation while simultaneously enhancing your advice, such that it is usable by the majority of users. This could have been achieved with half the effort of the immature approach you chose. 
Additionally, with such a blatantly emasculating question at the top of your post...its seems like you of all people would be the first to man up and act like an adult in such a situation. 
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micro said: Although I find it a bit humorous as this is my profession, I'm not going to refrain from telling someone they are wrong, especially after pulling THAT card =P
Or simply *being* a card >.>
What a coincidence, writing procedures for nuclear power plant operations and developing lessons for nuclear employee training programs is part of my profession. Effective education and communication in complex, high-risk, and high-consequence work environments are a primary focus of mine on a day-to-day basis.
I also have no qualms with offering up constructive peer coaching, the difference being that I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong, and integrating feedback into the way I conduct business. 
It doesn't matter anyway, I suppose your ego is inhibiting your ability to improve yourself. Furthermore, the original confusion has been properly explained, the potential disinformation has been properly mitigated.
-------------------- The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT
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Byrain

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 9,664
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: micro]
#22482444 - 11/05/15 06:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Took me all of five minutes to write a reply to you, that does not imply caring very much. Maybe I should of specified system logs, I've never actually used a database before due to lack of need and would not have immediately thought of MySQL/MariaDB. Though hearing about binary logs just makes me want to use them even less now. Adding repositories does not fix the packaging issue with debian not by a long shot, neither does upgrading to sid, unstable still has bloody old software, just its more prone to shitting itself. I'd rather just make my own slackbuilds for the few programs no one else has gotten to yet and altering a package build to get a newer version or different build flags is really easy and good way to start learning to write shell script. As for debian caring about free software, its kind of funny since they can't even get approved by the fsf (Neither is slackware, not that they ever tried and there is [url=http://freeslack.net/]freeslack]/url] for those that insist on free software.) Can you elaborate on "force flag"? I'm not familiar with it and googling does not really seem to provide anything relevant. The slackware packaging tools I use are slackpkg for easily maintaining official packages distributed as binaries and then a combination of installpkg, upgradepkg, removepkg and makepkg which are extremely simple and reliable tools for installing, upgrading, removing packages and making packages which in slackware are just tarballs. A slackbuild will compile a program in a fake root dir in /tmp/SBo (By default) and then makepkg will tar it up into a package which can be installed with installpkg which will make a text based file in /var/log/packages/$PRGNAM-$VERSION that keeps track of the contents of each package so that they can be easily removed or upgraded. It by design makes very little assumptions about what a user will want to do and is as simple as can be, they are all shell scripts. As you said as a feature they do not keep track of dependencies, leaving that responsibility to the user, this makes it so that you will never have the package manager stuck because it can't remove or upgrade a package nor will you ever see it try to remove the entire os when you try to remove something such as xchat or terminator (I have seen both with apt-get). Instead if you miss a dependency the package will fail to compile or just not work, usually with an error message telling you exactly what you need to get past the issue. The slackware communities are usually pretty good about helping anyone that is stuck, willing to ask nicely and show some initiative to trying to understand what is going wrong. Lastly, ofc there are various third party packaging tools that will handle dependencies if that is what you really want, like sbopkg, slapt-get, slpkg, etc.
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Byrain

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 9,664
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Sun King]
#22482477 - 11/05/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sun King said: How come no one suggested windows iis?
Because windows is functionally and ethically garbage that only will hold the op back from learning.
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Wunnbaddmofo
Vagabond
Registered: 11/02/15
Posts: 94
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Byrain]
#22482743 - 11/05/15 07:42 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok ,I still wouldnt know where to begin "compiling a custom kernel" However I would like to have a set up where if six months down the road, when the site is up and running, I have the option to do so. I am not opposed to learning the most technical, difficult way to do it, eventually.
I basically want something easy to set up now, something for beginners, that has the capability to do whatever I want it to as I learn more about the technology.
Someone mentioned windows 8 iis. This is something I heard about but haven't researched. I wouldnt mind looking into it, Im just afraid I dont have an old machine capable of running win 8.1
-------------------- Deo Vindici God Save the South
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Byrain

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 9,664
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22482820 - 11/05/15 08:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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You don't need to know how compile a kernel for your own os for what you currently want to learn. All you need is to decide what os, make an installation disc and and then follow the installation instructions for the os, honestly Slackware is likely a great distro for your legacy hardware. You can also investigate BSD unix (Not GNU/Linux), check out freebsd and openbsd for those.
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Wunnbaddmofo
Vagabond
Registered: 11/02/15
Posts: 94
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Byrain]
#22482934 - 11/05/15 08:24 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Byrain said: You don't need to know how compile a kernel for your own os for what you currently want to learn. All you need is to decide what os, make an installation disc and and then follow the installation instructions for the os, honestly Slackware is likely a great distro for your legacy hardware. You can also investigate BSD unix (Not GNU/Linux), check out freebsd and openbsd for those.
Ok, so in your opinion, those options are better than Ubuntu and lamp ?
-------------------- Deo Vindici God Save the South
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
#22483130 - 11/05/15 09:00 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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agmotes165 said: Good comment, you seem like a mature fellow who is willing to accept constructive feedback. Yep, no insecurities or ego here 
Your refusal to answer that confirms I was right, yet again.
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If that is the case, then perhaps you should refrain from offering advice to people. I don't doubt that you are probably the most qualified person on the OP's topic, but your lack of ability to properly communicate said knowledge (or even form complete sentences) makes you a source of disinformation, as the majority of users that read your original sentence will misinterpret its meaning. Its as simple as that. I'm not trying to insult you, rather I'm trying to point out that you are misleading people with poorly-worded advice, and subsequently being a dick to others when they point it out. 
I'm just defending my position. Why are you and your boyfriend getting so hostile?
If you can't take criticism GTFO the internet.
At least I have the balls to admit when I'm wrong.
He makes an assumption, was wrong about it and now you and he are desperately trying to prove you were right, even though there is no logical way to do that. gg
Pull your head out of his ass for just a second so you can see the sun shine :V
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Yes, this is my point. Anyone who assumes this interpretation is indeed making an assumption about what you are saying, because you did not supply enough information for anyone to do otherwise.
If you don't think there is enough information, then idunno... ASK?
You didn't do this and instead made an assumption (or rather are backing up your boyfriend in his assumption) trying to prove it was right and resort to childish name-calling instead of saying "oh gee Ricky, you're right. I didn't understand what you meant. Maybe I should have asked." You are trying to tell me how I should have worded my statement which was wrong as well, and still only continue to operate under the assumption that you two are infallible. Love can make us do crazy things, but don't let it replace common sense. That's just being delusional.
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That is true, but since you seem to be moderately intelligent in a general sense, highly qualified in the OPs topic, and have made it clear in previous threads that you are several decades old at the very least...that you would be mature enough to realize that your wording was misinterpreted, and elaborate/discuss the issue without spewing your over-inflated ego all over the thread and aggravating the situation with sarcasm and condescension... Additionally, with such a blatantly emasculating question at the top of your post...its seems like you of all people would be the first to man up and act like an adult in such a situation.
Jesus fucking Christ. Right back at 'ya?
I haven't been more hostile or sarcastic than either of you two loons.
The only difference is I was actually correct.
He was proven wrong, blew up and then cried to his boyfriend to save him.
You are only confusing the poor OP with all this childish garbage.
Also, stop telling him to use Slackware. That is the absolute WORST advice for someone who is starting out.
Find some common sense. (hint: it's not in his pants)
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What a coincidence, writing procedures for nuclear power blah, blah, more irrelevant and incoherent drivel
What a surprise.
Your boyfriend made an assumption and was wrong about it.
Since neither of you can be rational and even admit that there isn't a point to continuing this.
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
Edited by micro (11/05/15 09:53 PM)
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Byrain]
#22483294 - 11/05/15 09:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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OP - I'm going to refrain from commenting anymore to those two lovebirds since it is confusing the hell out of things.
If you really want, use Linux.
Don't use Slackware to start out and don't compile your own custom kernel.
Once you can install a type of Linux that has a reasonable package manager and get it to work those are an option. You don't want to set yourself up for failure on your first try and I'd take the shortest path possible within your ability. Since you are new to servers and Linux I'd recommend stopping there and just seeing if it works, otherwise you'll have too many variables to know where it went wrong. Debian will work, Ubuntu will work, CentOS will work... Any of the major distributions. Those will have the most software available to install through the package manager. I haven't used Linux Tail so I don't know anything about it. (edit: and I can't even find it in a search)
The package manager is easy to use in these; for Debian/Ubuntu just type in a terminal (the command prompt):
> apt-cache search httpd
for example; this will search and list all of the packages that have httpd (the Apache web server). You could also search for Apache web server, etc. When you find the package name type:
> apt-get install package_name
... and that is it. If you decide to use Debian and go through the text installation, it will give you the option to install a server and will give you all of the programs you need by default and configure them for you.
Regarding a LAMP stack -- those have nothing to do with it. He is still trying to recommend more distros that aren't Debian and confusing things even more. It doesn't matter what distro you use, but I would make sure it has a decent package manager and GUI to start out and if you stick to the popular distros you'll have more software available to install immediately. Debian, Ubuntu and CentOS are among the most popular distros that fall into that category. Linux Mint is up there as well.
If you do this, you can install a LAMP stack (Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP) and have it configure things for you.
I would get the flat site working first, even if it is just an HTML page that says "Hello, World." Make sure you can access it via IP from a machine not on that network. Then once that is working you can move on to the rest of it. If you do too much at once, again -- you are creating too many variables when you need to troubleshoot you won't know where to start.
I'm not a huge fan of PHP for many reasons but it is probably easier to start out with that or Ruby on Rails or Python/Django rather than something like Java with a much steeper learning curve.
I'd take it one step at a time though.
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
Edited by micro (11/05/15 10:59 PM)
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22484298 - 11/06/15 02:01 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wunnbaddmofo said: Ok, so in your opinion, those options are better than Ubuntu and lamp ?
In my opinion, no. Not better or worse. Ubuntu is fine; if you want something more lightweight and still very user friendly, consider xubuntu. Slackware is also fine. Due to the loads of online help and information, I would personally prefer Linux to bsd, but either will work. Even windows iis will work just fine, but why opt for software you need to buy or steal instead of something you can use legally for free?
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Sun King



Registered: 02/15/14
Posts: 4,069
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22484594 - 11/06/15 06:38 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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If you want to keep it simple, you can load apache or WAMP on XP. Then you wouldn't need to learn linux.
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Jean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,178
Loc: New Mexico, USA
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: micro]
#22484709 - 11/06/15 07:26 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Obviously any feedback given will be met with anger, sarcasm, and a strange fixation on homosexuality. I'll leave this issue alone.
It's truly sad to see intelligent people refusing to consider the fact that they might be wrong, even worse when they claim that they are 100% correct in all things...that is the absolute worst mistake that any moderately intelligent person can make.
But then again, I'm not really sure what I was expecting from semi-anonymous people on the internet. 
I have nothing further to add to this discussion, my apologies to the OP for breaking the thread up into multiple conversations.
-------------------- The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT
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Byrain

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 9,664
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: koraks]
#22484918 - 11/06/15 08:40 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said:
Quote:
Wunnbaddmofo said: Ok, so in your opinion, those options are better than Ubuntu and lamp ?
In my opinion, no. Not better or worse. Ubuntu is fine; if you want something more lightweight and still very user friendly, consider xubuntu. Slackware is also fine. Due to the loads of online help and information, I would personally prefer Linux to bsd, but either will work. Even windows iis will work just fine, but why opt for software you need to buy or steal instead of something you can use legally for free?
Honestly, ubuntu based is about the worst thing you can suggest next to debian or redhat. Say what you want about systemd, but its a piss poor solution for any server based os and ubuntu is a pretty terrible os for other uses too. Not to mention they ship spyware out of the box, has the you will need to reinstall every 6 months problem to make it more comfortable for windows users and is a horrible choice for legacy hardware which the op has. With all do honesty, the only major GNU/Linux distro left that is worth using is Slackware, anything else is more niche or will have less of a soft landing (Gentoo, Sourcemage, Crux, etc.).
Also, @ micro, LOL, you really are bad at this. You should probably refrain for offering advice when you are not even capable of being coherent let alone offering anything that will help the op.
Edited by Byrain (11/06/15 08:47 AM)
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Byrain]
#22485347 - 11/06/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've been running the same Ubuntu install for about 2 years now on my desktop at home. I don't use it as a server, but I use it several times a dat and I have no idea why I'd have to reinstall it every 6 months. Apparently it's not all as bad as you believe it is. I'd still recommend it, especially for a novice Linux user with very basic server requirements.
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Wunnbaddmofo
Vagabond
Registered: 11/02/15
Posts: 94
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Sun King]
#22485736 - 11/06/15 11:40 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok. So after attempting to install Ubuntu onto the machine I want to use,I was basically met with error messages. It allows me to use it as a live cd, but when I try to install desktop it gives me a string of error codes and hangs on the loading screen. So....since the machine is already running XPro, I will be using wampserver. Thanks for mentioning it, because I hadn't yet heard of it. So I am about to download it and start reading up on it. Leaving windows on the server will make it easier for me to administer it remotely I assume ? I know as far as some of you are concerned, that windows is the devil. But as soon as find an acceptable machine for sale cheap, I will be upgrading to that and installing something else. Im sure that I will need some advice on setting things up after I download wampserver though.
-------------------- Deo Vindici God Save the South
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Sun King



Registered: 02/15/14
Posts: 4,069
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22486031 - 11/06/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I used wamp in my php class. It works.
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Wunnbaddmofo
Vagabond

Registered: 11/02/15
Posts: 94
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Sun King]
#22486356 - 11/06/15 02:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I know this is off topic, but real quick, does this site have a research chemical thread ? If so I cant find it...
-------------------- Deo Vindici God Save the South
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22486373 - 11/06/15 02:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Probably a couple of hundred.
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Wunnbaddmofo
Vagabond

Registered: 11/02/15
Posts: 94
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: koraks]
#22486403 - 11/06/15 02:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sorry , I guess I meant an area where those threads would be organized. I cant find anything relevant and recent using the search....
So. the newest version of wampserver isn't compatible with win xp. Any idea how old I have to go for a version that is ?
-------------------- Deo Vindici God Save the South
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Wunnbaddmofo
Vagabond

Registered: 11/02/15
Posts: 94
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22488508 - 11/06/15 09:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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5 shrooms to u all. If I missed you please msg me or comment and let me know. I want to rate everyone that offered advice.
-------------------- Deo Vindici God Save the South
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22488688 - 11/06/15 10:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said: Slackware is also fine.
You're going to recommend something that doesn't handle dependencies -or- have a UI by default to someone who is just learning?
Quote:
Byrain said: Also, @ micro, LOL, derp. i still can't think of anything intelligent to say so imma insult u moar!!1!!11
... 
OH, WAIT HERE IS THE PART THAT MATTERS
Quote:
Wunnbaddmofo said: Ok. So after attempting to install Ubuntu onto the machine I want to use,I was basically met with error messages. It allows me to use it as a live cd, but when I try to install desktop it gives me a string of error codes and hangs on the loading screen. So....since the machine is already running XPro, I will be using wampserver. Thanks for mentioning it, because I hadn't yet heard of it. So I am about to download it and start reading up on it. Leaving windows on the server will make it easier for me to administer it remotely I assume ? I know as far as some of you are concerned, that windows is the devil. But as soon as find an acceptable machine for sale cheap, I will be upgrading to that and installing something else. Im sure that I will need some advice on setting things up after I download wampserver though.
Windows isn't bad for what you are doing.
You don't need 100% uptime or to have it be super efficient.
For just learning, it is fine.
Yes, you can use Remote Desktop to connect from another machine.
Same as before, you want to make sure the router is setup to forward port 3389 (if connecting outside your network).
Also, make sure that Remote Desktop is enabled on that machine.
I don't know what a wampserver is though so best to get help from someone who has used it.
As someone pointed out, if that doesn't work out you can always run Apache on there too.
Also, those machines should really be fine until you find you actually need better performance, etc.
I'm also curious what the errors were but whatev.
Maybe the DVD was bad? Usually if the live DVD works you should be able to use the default install.
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
Edited by micro (11/06/15 10:59 PM)
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: micro]
#22489233 - 11/07/15 04:38 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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 Alright man.
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micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: koraks]
#22489476 - 11/07/15 07:58 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
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Sun King



Registered: 02/15/14
Posts: 4,069
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Re: Web page hosting from a old comp at home [Re: Wunnbaddmofo]
#22494334 - 11/08/15 05:47 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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It looks like wampserver 2 might work on xp. You can also just install apache or even load IIS. IIS is a part of windows, go to add and remove windows components in control panel. There is PHP for IIS.
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