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Offlinefuzzysig
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the observer effect
    #22468753 - 11/02/15 09:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not understanding the oserver effect in quantum physics
what I read is that a human observer has effect on the particles
so does measuring equipment pointed at them BUT only when a human observer sees the output of that equipment...

I'm  bit confused. are they saying that only human observer is able to change the outcome of the experiment?


and other question is
since we found out that the universe is expanding. wouldn't that mean that before our telescopes reached where they did . there was no universe existing there.
what I mean. before the telescope. we only observed close proximity universe. mostly our surrounding stars and few far away stars. meaning the universe was not as big as it is now. and the further we can see the further it expands.


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Re: the observer effect [Re: fuzzysig]
    #22468933 - 11/02/15 10:42 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well, if someone says they truly understand the quantum observer effect, they are probably lying..but we can make a few educated guesses.

Its all a bunch of yes, nos, and maybes.
Quantum physics is just plain bizarre, for one, there are multiple experimentally valid quantum theories out there describing the same phenomena in different ways.
Another strange expirement shows that we can even influence particles in the past..

Basically, it seems that the particle knows its being observed somehow..perhaps through some sort of quantum entanglement with consciousness. Prior to observation, its theorized a particle exists in super position, Behaving like a wave and a particle at the same time. This is called the wave-function and once observed, the wave-function collapses into one or the other, almost as if a single reality has been chosen out of multiple possibilities that were happening at the same time.

If you think about it, our consciousness kind of works the same way.

We imagine multiple possibilites by being able to think (superposition) and make choices on which possibilities will manifest, meaning virtually every decision  you make and follow through with (collapsed wave-function, reality)..

So perhaps its all related, maybe the observer effect is just a reality, settling into the arrow of time of which we are bound, out of a myriad of probabilities and possibilities.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: the observer effect [Re: fuzzysig] * 1
    #22468953 - 11/02/15 10:49 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Let's simplify this: the act of measuring affects the object being measured because they must interact. Forget the New Agey consciousness misunderstanding.

Stick an anemometer into a gale force wind and it will accurately measure wind speed. Not shoot a single atom of nitrogen at 60mph into the same anemometer and it will not budge. Even using radar or laser measuring devices will still have an impact on that single atom of nitrogen.

The smaller quantity of matter/energy being measured, the greater the interference with the measuring device. There is no way around this.


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Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
    #22468959 - 11/02/15 10:52 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

perhaps through some sort of quantum entanglement with consciousness




:justno:


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: the observer effect [Re: fuzzysig]
    #22468976 - 11/02/15 10:56 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, i didnt understand it either until a TV science show explained it.

The observer effect is caused by instruments used to measure something that are "too powerful" and actually affect the path, velocity and acceleration of the tiny subatomic particles.

So basically, to observe this insanely small objects, the instrument humans use to do this actually change how particle's path and speed.

As stated above, theres no way around this :shrug:


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: the observer effect [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #22469005 - 11/02/15 11:09 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Yeah, i didnt understand it either until a TV science show explained it.

The observer effect is caused by instruments used to measure something that are "too powerful" and actually affect the path, velocity and acceleration of the tiny subatomic particles.

So basically, to observe this insanely small objects, the instrument humans use to do this actually change how particle's path and speed.

As stated above, theres no way around this :shrug:



That would be easier to understand if you spoke english


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Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
    #22469012 - 11/02/15 11:13 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

The universe expanding, accelerating at that, certainly does complicate things.


It was actually kind of recent that we even discovered the universe was accelerating expansion.

I'm actually not quite sure what your question is with regards to this, you worded it kind of funny, that or my comphrension is a little off due to how baked i am atm.
But i will give it a shot.
It seems that your basically asking if what we observe with our telescopes is actually there.

Well, it was actually how we observe it, depending on how far away it is we can determine how far in the past we are looking.
thats relativity for you.

So technically, real-time speaking, no.

The stars and galaxies we observe that are millions of light years away are, in real-time, actually in a different location and have changed quite a bit.

If your asking if expansion will or does interfere with our observations of the early universe, i believe it does.

I think i read somewhere that eventually runaway expansion will make it impossible..but let me check my sources and come back.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: the observer effect [Re: fuzzysig]
    #22469020 - 11/02/15 11:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fuzzysig said:
I'm not understanding the oserver effect in quantum physics
what I read is that a human observer has effect on the particles
so does measuring equipment pointed at them BUT only when a human observer sees the output of that equipment...

I'm  bit confused. are they saying that only human observer is able to change the outcome of the experiment?



Isn't this the interpretation of the Schrödinger's cat experiment?


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
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InvisiblehTx
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Re: the observer effect [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22469066 - 11/02/15 11:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Let's simplify this: the act of measuring affects the object being measured bfbecause they must interact. Forget the New Agey consciousness misunderstanding.

Stick an anemometer into a gale force wind and it will accurately measure wind speed. Not shoot a single atom of nitrogen at 60mph into the same anemometer and it will not budge. Even using radar or laser measuring devices will still have an impact on that single atom of nitrogen.

The smaller quantity of matter/energy being measured, the greater the interference with the measuring device. There is no way around this.



Thats a very classical intepretation.
You do know that observation is different than measurement?

Have you heard of the double-slit expirement?
Or shrodingers cat?

What if your not measuring anything and simply observing or not observing (double-slit) its been proven that observation collapses the wave function


The reason for this, remains unresolved.


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Re: the observer effect [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22469079 - 11/02/15 11:40 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

fuzzysig said:
I'm not understanding the osewave-function  effect in quantum physics
what I read is that a human observer has effect on the particles
so does measuring equipment pointed at them BUT only when a human observer sees the output of that equipment...

I'm  bit confused. are they saying that only human observer is able to change the outcome of the experiment?



Isn't this the interpretation of the Schrödinger's cat experiment?



Schrodingers cat highlights what i said above about superposition.

It is a fundamental concept in quantum theory.

The cat is theorized to exist as both alive and dead at the same time until observed, thus collapsing the wave-function into one or the other.
Its just a thought experiment, however, superposition is a fact of science, and is important in quantum computation.


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Re: the observer effect [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22469106 - 11/02/15 11:49 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

OC, you are like Einstein when it comes to quantum physics.


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Edited by hTx (11/03/15 03:49 AM)


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Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx] * 1
    #22469208 - 11/03/15 12:38 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

WIKI: In the ambit of the so-called hidden-measurements interpretation of quantum mechanics, the observer-effect can be understood as an instrument effect which results from an invasiveness of the measurement process, intrinsically incorporated in its experimental protocol (which therefore cannot be eliminated);


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Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
    #22469209 - 11/03/15 12:39 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
OC, your like Einstein when it comes to quantum physics.




Your? Who are you like when it comes to grammar?


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Re: the observer effect [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22469296 - 11/03/15 01:46 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
WIKI: In the ambit of the so-called hidden-measurements interpretation of quantum mechanics, the observer-effect can be understood as an instrument effect which results from an invasiveness of the measurement process, intrinsically incorporated in its experimental protocol (which therefore cannot be eliminated);



physics stack exchange: "n different interpretations of quantum mechanics the definition of "measurement" is different. But I think it would be enough if I give just five of which you can choose yourself.

    In Copenhagen/von Neuman interpretations the collapse of the wave function is triggered by the observer. This person has the special property which no other object in universe is capable of. In Copenhagen interpretation the collapse can be triggered by any system which is connected to the observer, including the measurement apparatus and external medium (if the observer is not isolated from it). All things can be arbitrarily divided into the observed system and the measuring system by so-called "Heisenberg cut" with the only requirement the measuring system include the observer.

    The von Neuman interpretation is the edge case of Copenhagen interpretation where the Heisenberg cut is placed as close to the observer as possible. As such even the parts of his brain still be be considered the part of the observed system. In von Neuman interpretation the collapse of the wave function happens when the observer feels any qualia(feeling) depended on the measured value.

    In Bohm interpretation the collapse of the wave function happens when the observer introduces into the measured system some perturbation, which is inevitable when performing the measurement. The difference between the measurement and any other interaction is in that the perturbation introduced by measurement is unknown beforehand. This is because initial conditions of a system containing the observer are unknown. In other words, the observer always contains information which is unknown and cannot be determined by any means due to self-reference problem. Thomas Breuer called this phenomenon "subjective decoherence". The philosophers believe that this unpredictability of the system containing the observer for himself, defines the free will.

    In Relational interpretation the collapse happens when the interaction affects the ultimate measurement performed by ultimate observer on the universal wave function at infinite future. As such, for the collapse to happen the result of interaction should somehow affect the external medium, the stars, etc, either now or in the future, rather than being recohered and lost.

    In Many-worlds interpretation the wavefunction collapse never happens. Instead what the observer perceives as the collapse is just the event of entanglement of the observer with the observed system.
"
From WIKI: In general, quantum systems exist in superpositions of those basis states that most closely correspond to classical descriptions, and, in the absence of measurement, evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. However, when a measurement is made, the wave function collapses—from an observer's perspective—to just one of the basis states, and the property being measured uniquely acquires the eigenvalue of that particular state, \lambda_i. After the collapse, the system again evolves according to the Schrödinger equation.


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Edited by hTx (11/03/15 03:48 AM)


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Re: the observer effect [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #22469298 - 11/03/15 01:47 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

hTx said:
OC, your like Einstein when it comes to quantum physics.




Your? Who are you like when it comes to grammar?



:awepreciation:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the observer effect [Re: fuzzysig]
    #22470202 - 11/03/15 09:40 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

The notion that the observer "creates" anything is something of a myth.  In orthodox quantum theory (aka the Copenhagen interpretation), we have come to the understanding that the environment can collapse a wavefunction.  No human consciousness is needed.  Moreover, in interpretations of quantum mechanics that are mathematically identical, such as Many-Worlds or Bohmian mechanics, the wavefunction doesn't collapse at all.  So understand that what we have here is human confusion, and not necessarily some inherent spookiness about Nature.  I personally believe we do not create objects by observing them, but that is common sense.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: the observer effect [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22470299 - 11/03/15 10:02 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
WIKI: In the ambit of the so-called hidden-measurements interpretation of quantum mechanics, the observer-effect can be understood as an instrument effect which results from an invasiveness of the measurement process, intrinsically incorporated in its experimental protocol (which therefore cannot be eliminated);




Exactly whaat i meant!

My version came out a little....dumb :nonono:


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Offlinefuzzysig
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Re: the observer effect [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #22479033 - 11/05/15 12:03 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

we could always ask the observer lol



now that I got that out of the way...
what you mean is theres too many theories about what happened there? and most of them are like interpretation of Egyptian hieroglyphs?

ok i got more info now but  i guess theres no answer to my question.
yes i was referring to the double slit experiment. it seems like theres a lot of versions of same thing but people really don't know what happened...

so i guess it makes my first question irrelevant lol
i was wondering if the observer would have to be aware of whats goin on to change the outcome. as opposed to a monkey or a cat observing the thing and not knowing what its looking at. aka awareness of it not simply observing.


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Offlinefuzzysig
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Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
    #22479060 - 11/05/15 12:11 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
The universe expanding, accelerating at that, certainly does complicate things.


It was actually kind of recent that we even discovered the universe was accelerating expansion.

I'm actually not quite sure what your question is with regards to this, you worded it kind of funny, that or my comphrension is a little off due to how baked i am atm.
But i will give it a shot.
It seems that your basically asking if what we observe with our telescopes is actually there.

Well, it was actually how we observe it, depending on how far away it is we can determine how far in the past we are looking.
thats relativity for you.

So technically, real-time speaking, no.

The stars and galaxies we observe that are millions of light years away are, in real-time, actually in a different location and have changed quite a bit.

If your asking if expansion will or does interfere with our observations of the early universe, i believe it does.

I think i read somewhere that eventually runaway expansion will make it impossible..but let me check my sources and come back.






what i meant is:
what we observe with our telescope WAS actually there before we observed it?
or was it there in the same state right before we observed it.

if were talking about particles in double slip experiment and space has lots of them so according to the experiment wouldn't the universe only unfold the moment we observe it?
like the cat in the box.
or it would form into what we are seeing with a telescope the moment we observe is going from whatever state it was in to its current sates right as we reach as far as we can with whatever tools we have?

what i mean is we and/or other intelligens species are expanding the universe as we become aware of it?



and on the other note. don't we already materialize things out of our mind?
technically every invention started as an idea and then we created its counterpart in our reality


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
    #22479676 - 11/05/15 06:45 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
OC, you are like Einstein when it comes to quantum physics.




You mean, stubbornly wrong?


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Re: the observer effect [Re: DieCommie]
    #22481793 - 11/05/15 04:29 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

:stoned:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
    #22481950 - 11/05/15 04:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

OC has the benefit of decades of perspective that Einstein didn't have.  He knows things about quantum physics than Einstein never did, so do I.  Einstein stubbornly refused to even keep us with the latest advancements in his older years - let alone contribute.  But thats ok, its often that way with the greats.


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Offlinefuzzysig
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Re: the observer effect [Re: DieCommie]
    #22483054 - 11/05/15 08:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

well you cant make anything if you always doubt yourself :smile:


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Re: the observer effect [Re: fuzzysig] * 1
    #22485966 - 11/06/15 12:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

The materialist will always come on strong and claim there is no mystery and that it's simply the physical interaction that is causing the wave function to collapse into a particle. Any explanation that conforms to their particle atomist view of reality is good enough for them and they don't really care to question it or look into the facts.

Quote:

Let's simplify this: the act of measuring affects the object being measured because they must interact. Forget the New Agey consciousness misunderstanding.




This would be the obvious conclusion so physicists have designed experiments to test if it really is the act of observation physically interacting with the particles to cause them to collapse. TO OP here are some experiments to look into that show there is certainly something more profound and paradoxical going on at the quantum level of reality.

Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment Explained


Quantum erasure with causally disconnected choice
http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.6578

Wheeler's delayed-choice gedanken experiment with a single atom
http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v11/n7/full/nphys3343.html

Experimental loophole-free violation of a Bell inequality using entangled electron spins separated by 1.3 km
http://arxiv.org/abs/1508.05949


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Re: the observer effect [Re: soldatheero]
    #22486114 - 11/06/15 01:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: the observer effect [Re: soldatheero]
    #22486654 - 11/06/15 03:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

Let's simplify this: the act of measuring affects the object being measured because they must interact. Forget the New Agey consciousness misunderstanding.




This would be the obvious conclusion so physicists have designed experiments to test if it really is the act of observation physically interacting with the particles to cause them to collapse. TO OP here are some experiments to look into that show there is certainly something more profound and paradoxical going on at the quantum level of reality.





So what, exactly, do you propose is going on?  It seems like you feel that you have a monopoly on some special knowledge here, if only everyone else could get it through his thick skull.  There are just as many people -- who are using quantitative evidence, unlike you -- who feel the collapse interpretations are flawed, and even some people who are offering a (quantitative) solution to the problem.

Wavefunction collapse does not seem as spooky to me anymore since I have researched it.  Where you could really make some hay with your position is with entanglement.  Entanglement truly is weird, and I think nonlocality is the essence of what you're trying to get at, anyway.  You don't need to keep going with this hardcore Copenhagen attitude with wavefunction collapse.  Which you don't really understand, anyway.  (no one really does, after all)  The observer is not unique.


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Re: the observer effect [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22494361 - 11/08/15 06:05 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I dont think anyone s really claiming whats going on... OC made a vague enough statement describing at most what we can truly say.
as i said earlier, we can make a few fun educated speculations (and there is nothing wrong with that).
There is an interaction that is occurrring when observing such tiny things as electrons that we cannot avoid.
Its that interaction which defines quantum mechanics.
Our instruments, eye-sight, everything, interacts with everything else...as everything else interacts with us. So if it is interactions we are talking about, then i think obviously, Entanglement follows and i think entanglement could explain observer effect quite well.


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Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
    #22494393 - 11/08/15 06:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

What's Going On



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Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
    #22494807 - 11/08/15 09:07 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

"We had this old idea, that there was a universe out there, and here is man, the observer, safely protected from the universe by a six-inch slab of plate glass. Now we learn from the quantum world that even to observe so miniscule an object as an electron we have to shatter that plate glass; we have to reach in there.... So the old word observer simply has to be crossed off the books, and we must put in the new word participator. In this way we've come to realize that the universe is a participatory universe." --John Archibald Wheeler


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Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
    #22495001 - 11/08/15 10:10 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Our instruments, eye-sight, everything, interacts with everything else...as everything else interacts with us. So if it is interactions we are talking about, then i think obviously, Entanglement follows and i think entanglement could explain observer effect quite well.




You think wrong.  Entanglement is hard to create and harder to maintain.  What you describe, everything interacting with everything else, destroys an entangled state.  Just saying that you think it could explain the observer effect is meaningless.  You haven't bothered to write down one equation, you are just making things up.


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Re: the observer effect [Re: DieCommie]
    #22500565 - 11/09/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

What you are talking about is laboratory entanglement, where they create a system of particles which are directly entangled such that the entanglement is a sort of closed system.

The reason it is so difficult to maintain is because of entanglement itself, its a fundamental part of quantum physics..the entangled system becomes entangled with the rest of the universe and becomes to heavily influenced by the rest of the universe, the closed system bleeds out into the universe as a whole.

Entanglement isn't just some cool effect we accomplish at a lab. This is literally how things work on the quantum level.

Every thing in the universe is subtlety entangled.

So, if you believe quantum effects occur simply because the measuring apparatus is interacting with what is being measured, then you must acknowledge that entanglement is somehow involved --


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Edited by hTx (11/09/15 03:08 PM)


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Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
    #22500576 - 11/09/15 01:54 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Entanglement occurs everytime a quantum event interacts/encounters another quantum event...lab or not.


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Re: the observer effect [Re: DieCommie]
    #22500846 - 11/09/15 03:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

hTx said:
Our instruments, eye-sight, everything, interacts with everything else...as everything else interacts with us. So if it is interactions we are talking about, then i think obviously, Entanglement follows and i think entanglement could explain observer effect quite well.




You think wrong.  Entanglement is hard to create and harder to maintain.  What you describe, everything interacting with everything else, destroys an entangled state.  Just saying that you think it could explain the observer effect is meaningless.  You haven't bothered to write down one equation, you are just making things up.



As a matter of fact, entanglement, I suspect, will be an important concept in marrying the macro and micro.

An object large enough to exhibit classical physical properties is, essentially, a largely entangled quantum state.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
    #22520933 - 11/14/15 01:41 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

certainty here seems somewhat ironical.


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