|
hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
|
Re: the observer effect [Re: DieCommie]
#22481793 - 11/05/15 04:29 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
#22481950 - 11/05/15 04:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
OC has the benefit of decades of perspective that Einstein didn't have. He knows things about quantum physics than Einstein never did, so do I. Einstein stubbornly refused to even keep us with the latest advancements in his older years - let alone contribute. But thats ok, its often that way with the greats.
|
fuzzysig
user

Registered: 10/21/11
Posts: 422
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
Re: the observer effect [Re: DieCommie]
#22483054 - 11/05/15 08:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
well you cant make anything if you always doubt yourself
|
soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: the observer effect [Re: fuzzysig] 1
#22485966 - 11/06/15 12:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The materialist will always come on strong and claim there is no mystery and that it's simply the physical interaction that is causing the wave function to collapse into a particle. Any explanation that conforms to their particle atomist view of reality is good enough for them and they don't really care to question it or look into the facts.
Quote:
Let's simplify this: the act of measuring affects the object being measured because they must interact. Forget the New Agey consciousness misunderstanding.
This would be the obvious conclusion so physicists have designed experiments to test if it really is the act of observation physically interacting with the particles to cause them to collapse. TO OP here are some experiments to look into that show there is certainly something more profound and paradoxical going on at the quantum level of reality.
Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment Explained
Quantum erasure with causally disconnected choice http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.6578
Wheeler's delayed-choice gedanken experiment with a single atom http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v11/n7/full/nphys3343.html
Experimental loophole-free violation of a Bell inequality using entangled electron spins separated by 1.3 km http://arxiv.org/abs/1508.05949
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
|
LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
|
|
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
|
Quote:
soldatheero said:
Quote:
Let's simplify this: the act of measuring affects the object being measured because they must interact. Forget the New Agey consciousness misunderstanding.
This would be the obvious conclusion so physicists have designed experiments to test if it really is the act of observation physically interacting with the particles to cause them to collapse. TO OP here are some experiments to look into that show there is certainly something more profound and paradoxical going on at the quantum level of reality.
So what, exactly, do you propose is going on? It seems like you feel that you have a monopoly on some special knowledge here, if only everyone else could get it through his thick skull. There are just as many people -- who are using quantitative evidence, unlike you -- who feel the collapse interpretations are flawed, and even some people who are offering a (quantitative) solution to the problem.
Wavefunction collapse does not seem as spooky to me anymore since I have researched it. Where you could really make some hay with your position is with entanglement. Entanglement truly is weird, and I think nonlocality is the essence of what you're trying to get at, anyway. You don't need to keep going with this hardcore Copenhagen attitude with wavefunction collapse. Which you don't really understand, anyway. (no one really does, after all) The observer is not unique.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
|
|
I dont think anyone s really claiming whats going on... OC made a vague enough statement describing at most what we can truly say. as i said earlier, we can make a few fun educated speculations (and there is nothing wrong with that). There is an interaction that is occurrring when observing such tiny things as electrons that we cannot avoid. Its that interaction which defines quantum mechanics. Our instruments, eye-sight, everything, interacts with everything else...as everything else interacts with us. So if it is interactions we are talking about, then i think obviously, Entanglement follows and i think entanglement could explain observer effect quite well.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
|
LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
|
Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
#22494393 - 11/08/15 06:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
#22494807 - 11/08/15 09:07 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
"We had this old idea, that there was a universe out there, and here is man, the observer, safely protected from the universe by a six-inch slab of plate glass. Now we learn from the quantum world that even to observe so miniscule an object as an electron we have to shatter that plate glass; we have to reach in there.... So the old word observer simply has to be crossed off the books, and we must put in the new word participator. In this way we've come to realize that the universe is a participatory universe." --John Archibald Wheeler
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
#22495001 - 11/08/15 10:10 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
hTx said: Our instruments, eye-sight, everything, interacts with everything else...as everything else interacts with us. So if it is interactions we are talking about, then i think obviously, Entanglement follows and i think entanglement could explain observer effect quite well.
You think wrong. Entanglement is hard to create and harder to maintain. What you describe, everything interacting with everything else, destroys an entangled state. Just saying that you think it could explain the observer effect is meaningless. You haven't bothered to write down one equation, you are just making things up.
|
hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
|
Re: the observer effect [Re: DieCommie]
#22500565 - 11/09/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
What you are talking about is laboratory entanglement, where they create a system of particles which are directly entangled such that the entanglement is a sort of closed system.
The reason it is so difficult to maintain is because of entanglement itself, its a fundamental part of quantum physics..the entangled system becomes entangled with the rest of the universe and becomes to heavily influenced by the rest of the universe, the closed system bleeds out into the universe as a whole.
Entanglement isn't just some cool effect we accomplish at a lab. This is literally how things work on the quantum level.
Every thing in the universe is subtlety entangled.
So, if you believe quantum effects occur simply because the measuring apparatus is interacting with what is being measured, then you must acknowledge that entanglement is somehow involved --
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
Edited by hTx (11/09/15 03:08 PM)
|
hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
|
Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
#22500576 - 11/09/15 01:54 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Entanglement occurs everytime a quantum event interacts/encounters another quantum event...lab or not.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
|
hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
|
Re: the observer effect [Re: DieCommie]
#22500846 - 11/09/15 03:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
hTx said: Our instruments, eye-sight, everything, interacts with everything else...as everything else interacts with us. So if it is interactions we are talking about, then i think obviously, Entanglement follows and i think entanglement could explain observer effect quite well.
You think wrong. Entanglement is hard to create and harder to maintain. What you describe, everything interacting with everything else, destroys an entangled state. Just saying that you think it could explain the observer effect is meaningless. You haven't bothered to write down one equation, you are just making things up.
As a matter of fact, entanglement, I suspect, will be an important concept in marrying the macro and micro.
An object large enough to exhibit classical physical properties is, essentially, a largely entangled quantum state.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: the observer effect [Re: hTx]
#22520933 - 11/14/15 01:41 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
certainty here seems somewhat ironical.
|
|