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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: clock_of_omens] * 1
    #22473410 - 11/03/15 09:10 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

clock_of_omens said:
I didn't read your novel, but just because rape is legal in your scenario doesn't mean everyone automatically consented. Rape is still rape, legal or not. Just because alcohol is legal doesn't mean everyone automatically consents to having it poured in their drink.




they did if the law had that stated in the law dummy, part parody on the legal system

whats that thing those legal jerks always say, if you don't like the law just move somewhere else:cookiemonster:

then those very same people say prostituion isn't rape, and i point out they can't move and had no choice so it is rape, you guys are the ones with the loose screws in the head.  If the law is only on your side when its a taboo subject and your a girl, then guess what, your shit stinks.

you can't win the debate with me, i already won, the only points you get is from trying to defend a white knight stance, you'll gather more support, but that doesn't mean you win, you can't win, its all legal loophole shit.

U take the word rape out, put anything else in there, and you don't have 1 dam leg to stand on, why is that, its because its the topic is taboo, you can't win, you just get more support.:cookiemonster:


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Offlineclock_of_omens
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: makaveli8x8] * 2
    #22473850 - 11/03/15 10:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

You can't legislate someone's consent. That's ridiculous. You're ridiculous.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: clock_of_omens] * 1
    #22473860 - 11/03/15 10:44 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

clock_of_omens said:
You can't legislate someone's consent. That's ridiculous. You're ridiculous.




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InvisibleAsante
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: Srirachi] * 4
    #22474343 - 11/04/15 02:17 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Well for one, the use of the word 'marriage'. Marriage began as a religious ceremony, and at some point, the government decided to begin bestowing certain benefits on people who were married. Then, at some point gay people decided they wanted the same benefits bestowed on them, but they decided that calling it any other word besides a 'marriage' was somehow robbing them of their right to be treated equally.





No, they are getting married before the law. It is an atheist marriage not a church marriage. Arent you an atheist by the way? The church has nothing to do with gay marriage.

Quote:

I take exception to their insistence that they call it a 'marriage' since most religions define a marriage as a union between a man and woman.




You are not accepting them as equal in merit to straight people.

Quote:

However, when I point out that I think they should use a different word that is not a re-writing of history




Yeah, and they shouldnt have called black people and women voting "voting" either because it totally rewrites history. Voting has as much to do with the church as the atheist marriages open to gay people.

Homophobe is a nice euphemism for antihomosexual bigot.

You are acting as if gays are forcing you to get married to a man in your own church. No they just want their thing for their own significant other at city hall just like anybody else.

And you feel bruised in your ego whatever or diminished in the value of marriage if they call this marriage just like anybody else.

Let people do their thing for their lives for their sake, which is nobodies interest but their own, and if they disgust you look the other way.

Get with the times homes. Gays are a normal variation on the human experience, just like genbder or ethnicity, and they have a right on equal treatment in the law. Many Churches still won't marry them so you can do your marriage there.

And holy fuck 15 +1s for that ignorant post. Whats the pub coming to?


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InvisibleSrirachi
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: Asante]
    #22475305 - 11/04/15 10:11 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry Asante, but I think you're wrong on all counts.

First off, I only used the marriage example as one example of how radicals try to silence their opponents through fear and intimidation instead of through the power of debate.

Marriage is a religious ceremony that predates the US Government and most other governments. It's mentioned in the Bible first in Genesis 2, written approximately 7,000 years ago, and defines marriage as a man to his wife.

People who follow that faith point to Romans 1:27 which clearly states that it is an abomination to have homosexual sex.

I think we've already established that some gay people also saw value in the word 'marriage' and wanted it for themselves. Again please keep in mind that I am advocating for gay couples to have identical rights under the law, just not the right to call it a 'marriage'. Example California's civil union.

So here is what I see, and what everyone has failed to dissuade me to believe:

Christians feel that it is an abomination to call it a 'marriage' if it doesn't fit the longstanding definition of one man to one woman. (The fact that some Biblical figures were polygamists doesn't change the fact that the Biblical definition is 1:1 by the way - nobody's perfect. Hell, Moses was a murderer!)

(Some) Gays feel it is an abomination to force them to use the word 'civil union' instead of marriage. So we have two parties with deeply held convictions that both have every right to have the feelings they have about the word and its use. Christians have some standing based on history, and gays have some standing based on the mere fact that they feel demeaned by not getting to use the word 'marriage'.

In a case like that, reasonable debate is needed. I am a Christian, not a particularly compliant one, but I believe in the Bible and Jesus Christ nonetheless. But guess what I believe? I believe the Church has done more to tighten Satan's grip on this underserved population (gays) through the marriage debate than anything else I've ever seen. The Bible may say gay sex is an abomination, but that in no way changes God's love for them. I also realize the Bible makes clear that ALL sexual sin is particularly offensive to God, so anyone who has "looked lustfully at a woman" has already "known her in his heart". So, I'm no better (or worse) than any other sinner in God's eyes - and I certainly have no right to control the behavior of another person, couple, or anyone outside my children under 18.

Which brings me back to my original point - I'm probably about as pro gay rights as anyone you'll meet. I have a reasoned and accepting view of the people and their desire to form a recognized and permanent bond to celebrate their love for one another, and yet I've been called a homophobe by many people who probably aren't even gay.... just people who, I don't know, want to be dicks?

The reason this thread got so many +'s is because people are sick of being cowed by a lie, Asante. A lot of progress gay people have made is about to be lost if the reactionary, Alinsky-inspired tactics of shouting their opponents into a corner with the word "HOMOPHOBE!!!" don't change.

The irony of this is that I'm more on your side than not, but because we disagree on some points you consider me a Neanderthal. It's that old 'house divided' thing. Certain members of the gay rights movement are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. 99% agreement is not enough - they will settle for nothing short of total cookie-cutter conformity to their point of view.


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OfflineAchillita
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: Srirachi] * 4
    #22475354 - 11/04/15 10:20 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Marriage isn't soley a christian thing, as marriage dates wayyy farther back, and exists in every culture AFAIK. You can't narrow what marriage can or can't be based off of one set of belief systems in a country that is separated from religion.


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Edited by Achillita (11/04/15 10:24 AM)


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Offlineclock_of_omens
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: Srirachi] * 4
    #22475396 - 11/04/15 10:27 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Srirachi said:
Genesis 2, written approximately 7,000 years ago





:lolwut:


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: Achillita]
    #22475404 - 11/04/15 10:30 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

this thread is still going?


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OfflineReposadoXochipilli
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: ShiVersblood] * 1
    #22475426 - 11/04/15 10:36 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stealth1Vampire said:
Some people think that the only way to not offend homosexuality is to become homosexual yourself. I disagree with that theory. You can be tolerant of Homosexuality without actually actively going that far. Okay maybe not actually becoming homosexual. But you dont have to actually stand there at a party watching two gay men have sex just to prove your tolerant of homosexuality, ya know.



:mmmkay:


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InvisibleSrirachi
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: ReposadoXochipilli]
    #22475945 - 11/04/15 10:59 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Achillita said:
Marriage isn't soley a christian thing, as marriage dates wayyy farther back, and exists in every culture AFAIK.




Can you show some evidence of this assertion? I provided an historical reference to marriage that dates from 5,000 BC. Can you provide evidence marriage predates that? I have no idea if the evidence exists or not, but then again, I'm not the one claiming it does.


Quote:

clock_of_omens said:
Quote:

Srirachi said:
Genesis 2, written approximately 7,000 years ago





:lolwut:




Genesis was written about 5,000 BC. A careful reading of what I wrote will reveal that I do not expect or need you to believe that the teachings in the Bible are correct, but there is little doubt that Genesis was written around 5,000 BC. I assume your "lolwut" meant you thought I was citing the Bible as a moral authority, not sure why you would think that other than a hypersensitivity to people mentioning the Bible... but it does have use as an historical source as well as a religious text.

I'm not foolish enough to suggest that you would agree with my definition of the word marriage because Bible. You obviously reject its teachings, so I bring it up as an historical reference dating the marriage tradition to at least 5,000 BC only.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
this thread is still going?




IKR? I'm not even against gay people calling it marriage. What I'm against is using the word homophobe to stifle genuine debate.

Still, it has been worth it all to me just to be asked by Achillita what I thought about two atheists getting married. That was brilliant. If more people approached the argument that way, the gay community could win minds instead of just court battles. Alas, most people won't do the hard work of actually trying to sway people's minds any more. They just shriek "HOMPHOOOOOOOOBEEEE!!!!!" at everyone who disagrees :shrug: so those people can fuck off.


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OfflineReposadoXochipilli
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: Srirachi]
    #22475957 - 11/04/15 11:03 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, as well as Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and most of Deuteronomy, but modern scholars increasingly see them as a product of the 6th and 5th centuries BC.[5][6]


from wiki


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InvisibleSrirachi
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: ReposadoXochipilli]
    #22475983 - 11/04/15 11:10 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well there you have it. :thumbup:


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Offlineclock_of_omens
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: Srirachi] * 3
    #22476023 - 11/04/15 11:21 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I was lolwuting because genesis is not that old. Reposo...'s quote says 6th and 5th centuries not millenniums. As in 600-500 BC. As in 2500-2600 years ago.


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OfflineTurtletotem
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: clock_of_omens]
    #22476032 - 11/04/15 11:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It's probably based on some oral tradition that is much older.


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InvisibleSrirachi
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: clock_of_omens]
    #22476057 - 11/04/15 11:30 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

My comment was a cynical reference to using Wikipedia as a source for basically the same reason as every "college 101" professor in the universe has.

APA says Wikis of all sorts are poor sources.


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: Srirachi]
    #22476069 - 11/04/15 11:32 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Srirachi said:
My comment was a cynical reference to using Wikipedia as a source for basically the same reason as every "college 101" professor in the universe has.

APA says Wikis of all sorts are poor sources.



One way to get around that is to find the reference they used for the fact you want to portray.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: Near Dylan]
    #22476081 - 11/04/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, wikis suck, but they can point your research in a direction, which is occasionally better than nothing


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InvisibleSrirachi
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22476119 - 11/04/15 11:47 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

True, I'm just pointing out that I don't want to do the work for both sides of the argument, and if you want to cite something, don't cite a public opinion repository :lol:

Now that I've beat that point into the ground I'll confess: I mistakenly said 5K BC, when what I meant was 5K ago.

Still, let's say it was written in 500BC for the sake of argument. Abraham was married to Sarai around 2000BC according to contemporary sources, and at that time marriage was already established as a religious ceremony. So take all liberties and I feel calling it a 4,000 year old religious ceremony is fair... agreed?


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Offlineclock_of_omens
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: Srirachi] * 1
    #22476157 - 11/04/15 11:56 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It wouldn't be the same religious ceremony as today. The whole point of modern christian marriage is as a picture of the relationship of the church and Jesus. There was no Jesus 4,000 years ago. Marriage has changed numerous times throughout history. There is also still the fact that marriage isn't only a christian thing.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: If you call people 'homophobe' then fuck off. [Re: Srirachi]
    #22476210 - 11/04/15 12:06 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

i thought this paper was kinda interesting. 

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0019066#abstract0
Quote:

The universality of marriage in human societies around the world suggests a deep evolutionary history of institutionalized pair-bonding that stems back at least to early modern humans. However, marriage practices vary considerably from culture to culture, ranging from strict prescriptions and arranged marriages in some societies to mostly unregulated courtship in others, presence to absence of brideservice and brideprice, and polyandrous to polygynous unions. The ancestral state of early human marriage is not well known given the lack of conclusive archaeological evidence.




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