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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Free Will: Can it be Partial or is it All or Nothing?
    #22461278 - 11/01/15 09:47 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

So when i was in Psychology school in college, my very-smart psychology instructor made a pretty convincing argument that free will does not exist because of social psychology influences such as peer pressure, the bystander effect, cognitive dissociance, "saving face" behaviours, etc, etc...

I was thinking about it, and could it be possible we have partical free will? As in we can be both influences by social pressures/situations but also have our own personal psychological "pressures" for ourselves, such as self-motivation to pursue a career goal, for example.


Or to be attracted to a certain type of person, based on personal preference and not direct social psychological influence or cultural learning.

What do you guys think?


Is partical Free Will possible or is it all or nothing?

Could some people have more Free Will than others?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will: Can it be Partial or is it All or Nothing? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #22461355 - 11/01/15 10:00 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I personally do not believe in clockwork determinism, so I feel events are more or less likely to happen, but that the improbable can always happen, and things can always change.  That said, I feel the universe has much more of a say in our lives than we do -- we're just puny human individuals in a gigantic cosmos, anyway.  I do not believe we have "free" will, but I do believe we have a will that is genetically and culturally constrained.  So we can effect actions in the world that are not automatic, although I note that humans act virtually automatically most of the time.  But consciousness is always there at the bottom of things, so humans are indeed not robots. 

Our will has an outlet in reality, but it is very tiny.  Nature and chance have much more of a say in how our lives will go than we do.  So really, to pit free will against fate is wrong, because even if our will is free, the hand of earthly happenings determines much more than our will ever could.  It is not until you get to the Caesars or Napoleons that an individual will shapes events meaningfully.  But I think, in our lives as humans, there is always wiggle room to execute our will in a small way.  But it can always be nixed by happenings.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Free Will: Can it be Partial or is it All or Nothing? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #22461404 - 11/01/15 10:11 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I think its pretty clear that it cannot be "all".  We cannot will anything we would like.  You cannot will yourself to levitate no matter how much mystics insist they can.  There are external constraints.  So the question comes down to partial or nothing.  If there is free will in any form I would describe it in terms of strong emergent properties and downward causation.  I posted a bit about it a few year ago here;

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8293996#8293996


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Offlinelovelaughlibs
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Re: Free Will: Can it be Partial or is it All or Nothing? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22461767 - 11/01/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Partial. The first barrier is (for now) physics stuff like thermodynamics, no perpetual motion machines etc. The second are physical barriers like it's not possible for a human to do unaided flight for example. Those are the most objective ones.

More subjective are things like cultural things. This can be double dip: either it's not acceptable to do X thing in your culture, or you just haven't heard of X due to lack of knowledge (because it's not relevant to your way of life. For example Ayahuasca to an average white westerner.)

Then there's things like a lack of purpose to do it. Right now I COULD shit myself, but what's the point?

So I'm gonna go with the partial free will limited by physics, culture and motivations.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Free Will: Can it be Partial or is it All or Nothing? [Re: lovelaughlibs]
    #22467538 - 11/02/15 05:28 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I think it would be out of a percentage of 100%

and then I would think that percentage changed with each moment or instant..

So the concept is there always..but has only a certain range of effect which can change, to be more free will or less free will..


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Free Will: Can it be Partial or is it All or Nothing? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #22467864 - 11/02/15 06:33 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
I think it would be out of a percentage of 100%

and then I would think that percentage changed with each moment or instant..

So the concept is there always..but has only a certain range of effect which can change, to be more free will or less free will..




yeah :thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Free Will: Can it be Partial or is it All or Nothing? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #22473954 - 11/03/15 11:13 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

What the discussion of freewill always seems to miss, to me, is that people actually desire to be spontaneous, or to feel spontaneous...and by definition to be really spontaneous one must be a little out of control, and surprise even oneself a bit. And "free will" always implies something about control and responsibility.
So folks drink at parties to 'loosen up'.
Tell folks they can't have something, and they want it.
Give people responsibility and they frequently want to shirk it.
Where ever did the idea come from that people are reasonable?


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