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Diploid
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The Export Import Bank
#22460425 - 11/01/15 02:59 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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The Export Import Bank was chartered as a government corporation in 1934 and provides financial services for certain large foreign purchases of American goods. Purchases that would otherwise not take place since the bank does not compete with the private sector.
Republicans have called it "corporate welfare", presumably because it provides government financing for the American corporation selling the goods. They want to end the bank.
I think republicans are looking at this wrong. Instead of corporate welfare, the bank levels the playing field where American firms have to compete in foreign lands where bribery and corruption are tacitly institutionalized. Lands where American firms still have to play by American rules (read: no bribery and no buying politicians while the competition is free to do so).
If nothing else, the Import Export Bank helps compensate for the legal ball and chain of political correctness that handicaps American firms overseas prohibited from engaging in the locally-customary bribery their competition engages in.
While laudable, I think traditional American ideals are out of sync with the realities of globalization and the culture shock that goes with it. We should allow American firms doing business overseas where bribery is par for the course to engage in bribery as well. If we're not going to do that, keeping the Import Export bank open seems like a fair compromise, especially considering that 60 other countries, including China, have their own version.
What do you think?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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starfire_xes
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Re: The Export Import Bank [Re: Diploid]
#22460797 - 11/01/15 07:45 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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they don't call it 'TheBoeing Bank' for nothing. Here is whatis wrong with it: the loans it gives, on the taxayers assurance, have almost entirely gone to largec companies like Boeing and ge, who didn't need them. They create jobs in other countries, but not necessarily in the US.
In addition, if, say as is made to a foreign entity, and they default, guess who picks up the tab? the US taxpayer.
This bank is crony capitalism at its very best, and that is also why Bernie sanders opposes it. as well as the hard libertarian side of the r party. The mainstream are for this turd.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: Here is whatis wrong with it: the loans it gives, on the taxayers assurance, have almost entirely gone to largec companies like Boeing and ge, who didn't need them. They create jobs in other countries, but not necessarily in the US.
In addition, if, say as is made to a foreign entity, and they default, guess who picks up the tab? the US taxpayer.
This bank is crony capitalism at its very best, and that is also why Bernie sanders opposes it. as well as the hard libertarian side of the r party. The mainstream are for this turd.
Same point you made here. And you never answered how much it cost the taxpayer (the answer appears to be zero).
I'm neither for or against it, as I don't know that much about it, really. But it doesn't seem to be costing the taxpayer anything.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
But it doesn't seem to be costing the taxpayer anything
True and not true, it's a complicated issue but any venture backed by the taxpayers does assume that their is risk involved (or it wouldn't need to be backed at all) correct?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
But it doesn't seem to be costing the taxpayer anything
True and not true, it's a complicated issue but any venture backed by the taxpayers does assume that their is risk involved (or it wouldn't need to be backed at all) correct?
Also true, and not true. If it does provide benefit for US businesses, then we'd be generating tax revenue from it. But I hear your point - the risk is on the taxpayer.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
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But it doesn't seem to be costing the taxpayer anything
True and not true, it's a complicated issue but any venture backed by the taxpayers does assume that their is risk involved (or it wouldn't need to be backed at all) correct?
Also true, and not true. If it does provide benefit for US businesses, then we'd be generating tax revenue from it. But I hear your point - the risk is on the taxpayer.
And the only article I found on the true cost cited it netted a gain of 14 billion, yet done under private banking would have netted 16 billion, so either a loss of 2 billion or a gain of 14, depending on how one would frame it. I'll definitely have to research it more, but it seems like a bad deal, based soley on "the govt shouldn't be running banks and risking tax dollars" perspective
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Do you mind linking to that article? I'm curious how it got to that assessment.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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paperbackwriter
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: they don't call it 'TheBoeing Bank' for nothing. Here is whatis wrong with it: the loans it gives, on the taxayers assurance, have almost entirely gone to largec companies like Boeing and ge, who didn't need them. They create jobs in other countries, but not necessarily in the US.
In addition, if, say as is made to a foreign entity, and they default, guess who picks up the tab? the US taxpayer.
This bank is crony capitalism at its very best, and that is also why Bernie sanders opposes it. as well as the hard libertarian side of the r party. The mainstream are for this turd.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Do you mind linking to that article? I'm curious how it got to that assessment.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2014/09/10/does-the-export-import-bank-make-or-lose-money/
And one more I haven't had time to read yet
http://www.eximexposed.org/just-the-facts/the-export-import-bank-is-a-2-billion-loss-for-taxpayers-at-least/
Thank you.
As you said, the Ex Im Bank makes $14 billion per year from loaning money, but some might call that a loss because they charge $2 billion less interest than what the market would have charged for those same loans. I get that logic.
The problem with the logic is that foreign companies wouldn't buy our goods if they had to borrow at the market rate, and the purpose of the Ex-Im Bank isn't to make money (even though it does), it is to loan money to foreign companies so they can buy things from US business that they otherwise wouldn't buy.
Corporate Welfare? Yes. But since it brings more business to the US, and hasn't cost the tax payer any money, I'm starting to think it's a good thing. Maybe it's better for the US economy if Boing sells planes than Airbus (a French company), right?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
Corporate Welfare? Yes. But since it brings more business to the US, and hasn't cost the tax payer any money, I'm starting to think it's a good thing. Maybe it's better for the US economy if Boing sells planes than Airbus (a French company), right? 
One could argue the same about ALL corporate welfare, could they not?
I'm so far not convinced the exim bank is a bad thing either, BS is against it though, so that tells me it's probably not, lol
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KauaiOrca
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: they don't call it 'TheBoeing Bank' for nothing. Here is whatis wrong with it: the loans it gives, on the taxayers assurance, have almost entirely gone to largec companies like Boeing and ge, who didn't need them. They create jobs in other countries, but not necessarily in the US.
Does Boeing have a lot of employees overseas?
I'd like to see the Ex/Im Bank focus more on smaller companies manufacturing for EXPORT based in the US with US employees. Loans to expand US OPERATIONS ... Loans to offset real disadvantages posed by trade barriers in foreign markets.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Corporate Welfare? Yes. But since it brings more business to the US, and hasn't cost the tax payer any money, I'm starting to think it's a good thing. Maybe it's better for the US economy if Boing sells planes than Airbus (a French company), right? 
One could argue the same about ALL corporate welfare, could they not?
If the Government helps corporations without it costing the taxpayer anything, I have absolutely nothing against that. I'm against the corporate welfare where the Government gives to the corporations by taking from the rest of us.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Corporate Welfare? Yes. But since it brings more business to the US, and hasn't cost the tax payer any money, I'm starting to think it's a good thing. Maybe it's better for the US economy if Boing sells planes than Airbus (a French company), right? 
One could argue the same about ALL corporate welfare, could they not?
If the Government helps corporations without it costing the taxpayer anything, I have absolutely nothing against that. I'm against the corporate welfare where the Government gives to the corporations by taking from the rest of us.
Yes, and tax breaks aren't "welfare" as some would argue, unless you believe all wealth belongs to the govt to start with and they just let us peons have some of it
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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hostileuniverse said: Yes, and tax breaks aren't "welfare" as some would argue, unless you believe all wealth belongs to the govt to start with and they just let us peons have some of it
I should figure out how to auto-reply to you with "quit the straw man arguments". 
Given that the Government HAS to collect a certain amount of taxes to pay the bills, giving corporations a break while forcing Main St to eat the difference is the definition of corporate welfare.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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starfire_xes
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Well,Fal,so you like'too big to fail' poliy?
If Boeing, for example, sells 20 airplanes to bum fuck la-la land they can extend credit. but instead what they do is use the IM back as safety.
So instead of using their own capital, they use government capital, but extend the credit. So the money they borrow can work for them.
If Bum Fuck defaults, guess what? Uncle Sam to the rescue!!
So what essentially is happening is any risk is shifted from Boeing (or whatever company is using theEX_IM)to the taxpayer.
Hmmmm....wonder where I've heard this before?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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I don't get the connection between Ex-Im and too big to fail. Of course I'm against too big to fail, I've said that repeatedly in the last few days. Boeing can go bankrupt, and it's not going to take the economy down with it.
I'm not disputing your other point, but so far ExIm's been good for both the taxpayer and business.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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KauaiOrca
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Quote:
starfire_xes said:
If Bum Fuck defaults, guess what? Uncle Sam to the rescue!!
So what essentially is happening is any risk is shifted from Boeing (or whatever company is using theEX_IM)to the taxpayer.
Hmmmm....wonder where I've heard this before? 
How many defaults over the last 10 years have there been for a total of how much money?
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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starfire_xes
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Re: The Export Import Bank [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22469131 - 11/02/15 11:59 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said:
If Bum Fuck defaults, guess what? Uncle Sam to the rescue!!
So what essentially is happening is any risk is shifted from Boeing (or whatever company is using theEX_IM)to the taxpayer.
Hmmmm....wonder where I've heard this before? 
How many defaults over the last 10 years have there been for a total of how much money?
OK....I agree...we should give multi-billion dollar guarantees to big corporations and get stuck for the bill if something goes wrong. Crony capitalism is crony capitalism, no matter how they sugar coat it. E
You should google EX-IM Crony Capitalism. The internet is full of stories about it and examples of fraud and waste.
IN fact, its the very definition of crony capitalism.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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I see both sides. Things have been good so far, but IF something really bad were to happen, the taxpayer would be on the hook. I'm neutral on this, because we might have already made enough money to cover a few things going bad.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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starfire_xes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I see both sides. Things have been good so far, but IF something really bad were to happen, the taxpayer would be on the hook. I'm neutral on this, because we might have already made enough money to cover a few things going bad.
i was reading apparantely there have been defaults. What is really sick about this is the US giving tax-payer guaranteed loans to foreign governments.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Sure, but the net cost to taxpayers has still been zero.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Sure, but the net cost to taxpayers has still been zero.
Wasn't the net cost to taxpayers zero for all those high risk loans, until the fed decided to bail them out? That's the problem here, there is huge "risk" to the taxpayers, so I guess we just wait until it costs us a couple trillion, lol
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paperbackwriter
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Doesn't allowing huge corporations to take risks on the tax payers dime encourage them to take bigger risks?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Doesn't allowing huge corporations to take risks on the tax payers dime encourage them to take bigger risks?
Well yeah, that's why govt shouldn't gaurantee any loans, IMO
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Diploid
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First, let's correct something. The bank does not finance American corporations. It finances purchases by foreigners of American goods. In other words, we are loaning to other foreign corporations and governments to buy stuff from American corporations.
Now, should we do this? Considering that some 60 other countries do it to the benefit of their corporations and tax payers, we MUST do it too to level the playing field.
If you want globalization, you have to accept cultural relativity.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: The Export Import Bank [Re: Diploid]
#22470937 - 11/03/15 12:42 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: First, let's correct something. The bank does not finance American corporations. It finances purchases by foreigners of American goods. In other words, we are loaning to other foreign corporations and governments to buy stuff from American corporations.
Now, should we do this? Considering that some 60 other countries do it to the benefit of their corporations and tax payers we MUST do it to level the playing field.
If you want globalization, you have to accept cultural relativity.
But that's NOT a level playing field, because the govt picks and chooses which companies are able to be financed by the exim, if it were level, any corporation or company could acces exim funds for trade with other countries, not the case with exim
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Diploid
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the govt picks and chooses which companies are able to be financed by the exim
That's not true. My understanding is that the bank operates independently of the government like any other bank and follows standard industry practice in selecting loans for approval.
What's more, most of the 60 countries that have Export Import banks play by an internationally-agreed set of guidlines to prevent favoratism and promote fairness and transparency. Except China who doesn't play by the rules. All the more reason we need to keep the bank open. A bank that self-finances and makes a small profit for the US taxpayer while helping American corporations close sales they would otherwise never close.
Win-win. I have no problem with that.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: The Export Import Bank [Re: Diploid]
#22471164 - 11/03/15 01:42 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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So a private bank gives loans to overseas companies, those loans are backed by the tax payer, is that correct?
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paperbackwriter
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Re: The Export Import Bank [Re: Diploid]
#22471206 - 11/03/15 01:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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The wikipedia page is telling.
The case for it is a bunch of anecdotes by small businesses (note: the bank's charter provides that Ex-Im Bank makes available "not less than 20%" of its lending authority to small businesses although they have often fallen short of the 20% threshold). The case against it... well... I'd quote it but all the citations would make it ugly.
You guys can read for yourselves under criticisms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export-Import_Bank_of_the_United_States
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
The Export-Import Bank of the United States (Ex-Im Bank) is the official export credit agency of the United States federal government.[1] Operating as a government corporation, the bank finances and insures foreign purchases of United States goods for customers unable or unwilling to accept credit risk.
Government corporation? The more I'm learning, the more I don't like it all and can see why libs do, they like the govt ownership of banks
So it hasn't cost the taxpayers anything "yet" like Fanni and Freddie, I guess we'll see when the defaults start happening if this is another "too big to fail" banking scheme cooked up by our benevelont govt...
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: The wikipedia page is telling.
The case for it is a bunch of anecdotes by small businesses (note: the bank's charter provides that Ex-Im Bank makes available "not less than 20%" of its lending authority to small businesses although they have often fallen short of the 20% threshold). The case against it... well... I'd quote it but all the citations would make it ugly.
You guys can read for yourselves under criticisms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export-Import_Bank_of_the_United_States
Quote:
Environmental groups say that under the Obama Administration the Ex-Im Bank is on a "fossil fuel binge", which "makes a mockery of Obumble...
Lol, not hard to do, the guy has made himself the laughing stock of the world countless times...
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starfire_xes
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Re: The Export Import Bank [Re: Diploid]
#22473270 - 11/03/15 08:42 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: First, let's correct something. The bank does not finance American corporations. It finances purchases by foreigners of American goods. In other words, we are loaning to other foreign corporations and governments to buy stuff from American corporations.
Now, should we do this? Considering that some 60 other countries do it to the benefit of their corporations and tax payers, we MUST do it too to level the playing field.
If you want globalization, you have to accept cultural relativity.
Oh I see. Companies like Boeing and GE can't extend credit to customers like most companies do. (DO you know what 'accounts receivable' is? 
Here's the problem: GE or Boeing et. al. don't want to have any risk. So they get the government to extend taxpayer guaranteed loans so credit risk countries can purchase their products.
No risk for corporations, no risk for the buyer: risk totally on the US taxpayer.
Now let's see...where have I heard this before? Hmmmmm........ oh yeah, I remember now!! It's called Crony Capitalism.
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
Now let's see...where have I heard this before? Hmmmmm........ oh yeah, I remember now!! It's called Crony Capitalism.
But but but, liberals are AGAINST crony capitalism... Or are they?
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