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Offlinesuttree
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Everything we know about addiction is wrong?
    #22458769 - 10/31/15 06:12 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Does anyone believe this little production. In a nutshell-Kurzgesagt. You tube. Everything we know about addiction is wrong. Sorry for not having a link as with no pc I use my tablet and xbox one. No copy and paste.

But point is if you have your needs met life is great but if you do not addictive qualities become stronger to allieviate it from my take. Though nothing will change my experiences of drugs being a life enhancer.

Yes it is hard drugs but maybe a different forum?  Maybe it is just about self destructiveness or life fulfillment. Or maybe I should relax because it is halloween here and my social expectations are expected.

Any thoughts?


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PCT


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Offlinekakashi68
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: suttree]
    #22458906 - 10/31/15 06:50 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

yea this is catching on lately. Its very true, at least i believe.



--------------------
You know, just sometimes in between the first cigarette with coffee in the morning to that 400th glass of cornershop piss at 3am--you do sometimes look at yourself and think--this is fantastic. I'm in heaven.
-Bernard Black



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Offlinesuttree
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: kakashi68]
    #22458934 - 10/31/15 06:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for posting the link. It resonated with my life and addictions. I still love them. I guess I need to fall in love again and have a metaphorical rat playground.

The most happy time of my past. The feeling of needing nothing and enjoyment in so much.


--------------------
PCT


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: suttree]
    #22458980 - 10/31/15 07:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

suttree said:
But point is if you have your needs met life is great but if you do not addictive qualities become stronger to allieviate it from my take. Though nothing will change my experiences of drugs being a life enhancer.






so that would mean that the people on welfare, living in government housing and
collecting food stamps wouldnt be addicts... seems this theory is wrong, hell,
plenty of people with lots of cash are also addicts


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Invisibleluvdemboomers
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: Prisoner#1] * 1
    #22458993 - 10/31/15 07:14 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

suttree said:
But point is if you have your needs met life is great but if you do not addictive qualities become stronger to allieviate it from my take. Though nothing will change my experiences of drugs being a life enhancer.






so that would mean that the people on welfare, living in government housing and
collecting food stamps wouldnt be addicts... seems this theory is wrong, hell,
plenty of people with lots of cash are also addicts




People also have psychological needs ya know


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: luvdemboomers]
    #22459015 - 10/31/15 07:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemboomers said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

suttree said:
But point is if you have your needs met life is great but if you do not addictive qualities become stronger to allieviate it from my take. Though nothing will change my experiences of drugs being a life enhancer.






so that would mean that the people on welfare, living in government housing and
collecting food stamps wouldnt be addicts... seems this theory is wrong, hell,
plenty of people with lots of cash are also addicts




People also have psychological needs ya know




well I guess then we're all drug addicts because no one gets all of their needs met


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Invisibleluvdemboomers
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22459054 - 10/31/15 07:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

luvdemboomers said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

suttree said:
But point is if you have your needs met life is great but if you do not addictive qualities become stronger to allieviate it from my take. Though nothing will change my experiences of drugs being a life enhancer.






so that would mean that the people on welfare, living in government housing and
collecting food stamps wouldnt be addicts... seems this theory is wrong, hell,
plenty of people with lots of cash are also addicts




People also have psychological needs ya know




well I guess then we're all drug addicts because no one gets all of their needs met




I nor OP said all

I do agree with the OP's logic. If your material and psychological needs most important to you are met you will most likely be less prone to substance abuse. It's common sense imo.

Take two people who are very similar. The most important things to them are family and a meaningful relationship/marriage. Guy 1 is happily married and has a great relationship with his siblings and parents. Guy two went through a nasty divorce and was disowned by most of his family. Which one do you think will be more prone to substance abuse?


Edited by luvdemboomers (10/31/15 07:33 PM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: luvdemboomers]
    #22459107 - 10/31/15 07:45 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemboomers said:
It's common sense imo.





every time I hear this it is associated with conspiracy theories or ridiculous
claims such as holistic healing, or soursop fruit being 10,000 more potent than
chemotherapy in fighting cancer


clearly there is no common sense


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Invisibleluvdemboomers
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22459116 - 10/31/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

luvdemboomers said:
It's common sense imo.





every time I hear this it is associated with conspiracy theories or ridiculous
claims such as holistic healing, or soursop fruit being 10,000 more potent than
chemotherapy in fighting cancer


clearly there is no common sense



whatever you say


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Offlinesuttree
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Registered: 10/21/15
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22459142 - 10/31/15 07:56 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

luvdemboomers said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

suttree said:
But point is if you have your needs met life is great but if you do not addictive qualities become stronger to allieviate it from my take. Though nothing will change my experiences of drugs being a life enhancer.




Ok you have have government bully pulpit. What is your ideal? What would make you feel peace and fulfillment?



so that would mean that the people on welfare, living in government housing and
collecting food stamps wouldnt be addicts... seems this theory is wrong, hell,
plenty of people with lots of cash are also addicts




People also have psychological needs ya know




well I guess then we're all drug addicts because no one gets all of their needs met




--------------------
PCT


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Offlinesuttree
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: suttree]
    #22459148 - 10/31/15 07:58 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

But what is you're ideal?


--------------------
PCT


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Offlinechulutu
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: suttree] * 1
    #22459156 - 10/31/15 08:00 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

ive struggled with opiate addiction for years and i strongly believe that its not the end all be all solution to solving addiction, but its certainly a big part of the solution.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: suttree] * 1
    #22459158 - 10/31/15 08:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Everyone wants to oversimplify the world, to categorize everything as broadly as possible for the purpose of a treatment response.

The truth? Here is the non-simplified truth:

It is extremely likely that the predisposition to become addicted exists on a continuum and is largely determined by genetic markers.

It is also likely that the state of a given case of addiction can be most accurately expressed in terms of a continuum and is causally related to a much more complex set of environmental, metabolic, and genetic markers.

Some cases of addiction are so extreme, or the damage to the brain caused by the addiction is so extreme, that it appears to be impossible to treat. These are the individuals who have been drinking so heavily for so long that they have Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome and lack the mental capacity to live a recovered lifestyle. These individuals are relatively rare- probably less than 3% of cases- but probably need to simply be locked up, but then again- who gets to decide who qualifies as untreatable?

Some cases of addiction appear to be mild enough that little formal treatment is necessary at all. The term "mild" may be misleading. Mild addicts may use every day, but their behavior does not cause serious unmanageability in their lives. They may drink 5-6 drinks a night, every night, and do some cocaine on the weekends, or abuse their prescription xanax sometimes, but they still pay their bills and raise their children relatively well. It is actually countereffective to mix these individuals into rehab programs or 12 step meetings, where at worst they can potentially learn ways to worsen their addictions, or at least may feel a significant amount of tension in the difference between themselves and others, causing them to continue using. In these cases, having an effective peer group who can give the addict an outsider's perspective and a healthy set of alternative behaviors may prove to be enough. Many times mild addicts are prompted to pay closer attention to their behavior by health professionals, and they by no means should consider going to 12 step meetings. Finding hobbies and most importantly friends to do things with is the most important replacement for the addictive behavior. Most mild addicts never address their addiction at all and simply die ~10-15 years younger than they otherwise would have because of it. This is the largest group of addicts- probably 60-75%+

Then there are the rest. These are the people who have passed the threshold of being able to recover without hospitalization, but who are still able to recover with serious time and effort. They may drink around the clock, or be completely and totally addicted to any drug, to the point that it consumes every waking minute of their life. So long as people are willing to entertain the idea FIRST of taking suggestions and THEN of LONG TERM BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION based on those suggestions, they can recover, no matter how strung out on heroin they were. I've seen it happen. This group is around probably 25-40% of addicts.


So long as we try to treat all addicts the same way, people are going to slip through the cracks. "Mild" addicts who should ABSOLUTELY NOT be in rehabs will keep going back out, using, coming back in, going back out, using, making it worse, until eventually they end up blaming it the personal possession one side of this non-existent dichotomy they've they been indoctrinated with in rehab "Addict/non-addict".


A lot of the PEOPLE in the business really care, but most of the BUSINESSES themselves are purely profit-driven- and let's face it, there is a KILLING to made off of "saving lives".


Edited by morrowasted (10/31/15 08:06 PM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: suttree]
    #22459161 - 10/31/15 08:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

is this thread only for the supporting discussion of the controversial topic based
on what a youtube video is telling us to believe or is it open to counter points to
what the video is claiming.


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: luvdemboomers]
    #22459167 - 10/31/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I think there's a grain of truth in there, but we're not rats, and nothing about the conclusions drawn is scientific.  It's very theoretical, and the video is full of half-truths. 

I think the point that people who are engaged and given attention from others are less likely to become addicts is pretty valid, but they are also just addicted to that attention instead.  If these people's world falls apart, they can easily become addicts. 

I mean what's the practical value to this?  Be happy and healthy?  No shit.  Don't be isolated and alone?  Don't be assholes to eachother? :smirk: very insightful.


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Offlinekakashi68
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22459220 - 10/31/15 08:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

suttree said:
But point is if you have your needs met life is great but if you do not addictive qualities become stronger to allieviate it from my take. Though nothing will change my experiences of drugs being a life enhancer.






so that would mean that the people on welfare, living in government housing and
collecting food stamps wouldnt be addicts... seems this theory is wrong, hell,
plenty of people with lots of cash are also addicts




This isnt saying that ALL people whos needs arnt meant become addicts. The video dumbs down the theory and has a few incorrect points.

It is however correctly pointing out that the current theory of addiction is wrong. And that SOME people whos needs arnt meant will turn to drugs, while other may turn to other addictions or even positive aspects such as exercise or soemthing else.


--------------------
You know, just sometimes in between the first cigarette with coffee in the morning to that 400th glass of cornershop piss at 3am--you do sometimes look at yourself and think--this is fantastic. I'm in heaven.
-Bernard Black



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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: kakashi68]
    #22459235 - 10/31/15 08:28 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

kakashi68 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

suttree said:
But point is if you have your needs met life is great but if you do not addictive qualities become stronger to allieviate it from my take. Though nothing will change my experiences of drugs being a life enhancer.






so that would mean that the people on welfare, living in government housing and
collecting food stamps wouldnt be addicts... seems this theory is wrong, hell,
plenty of people with lots of cash are also addicts




This isnt saying that ALL people whos needs arnt meant become addicts. The video dumbs down the theory and has a few incorrect points.

It is however correctly pointing out that the current theory of addiction is wrong. And that SOME people whos needs arnt meant will turn to drugs, while other may turn to other addictions or even positive aspects such as exercise or soemthing else.


elaborate your understanding of "the current theory of addiction". I think both you and the video creator fail to understand where addictionologists stand at the moment, and are basing your reactions off of the way that treatment is generally given.


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Offlinekakashi68
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: morrowasted]
    #22459367 - 10/31/15 09:02 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

kakashi68 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

suttree said:
But point is if you have your needs met life is great but if you do not addictive qualities become stronger to allieviate it from my take. Though nothing will change my experiences of drugs being a life enhancer.






so that would mean that the people on welfare, living in government housing and
collecting food stamps wouldnt be addicts... seems this theory is wrong, hell,
plenty of people with lots of cash are also addicts




This isnt saying that ALL people whos needs arnt meant become addicts. The video dumbs down the theory and has a few incorrect points.

It is however correctly pointing out that the current theory of addiction is wrong. And that SOME people whos needs arnt meant will turn to drugs, while other may turn to other addictions or even positive aspects such as exercise or soemthing else.


elaborate your understanding of "the current theory of addiction". I think both you and the video creator fail to understand where addictionologists stand at the moment, and are basing your reactions off of the way that treatment is generally given.




Well... the way generally society thinks and treats addicts would be the "current model" Research is research and means nothing until its put into practice.


--------------------
You know, just sometimes in between the first cigarette with coffee in the morning to that 400th glass of cornershop piss at 3am--you do sometimes look at yourself and think--this is fantastic. I'm in heaven.
-Bernard Black



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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: kakashi68]
    #22459545 - 10/31/15 09:44 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Well... the way generally society thinks and treats addicts would be the "current model"


There are a lot of conflicting views about what addiction is. Some people simply see it as weakness. Some see it as a moral failing. Medical institutions consider it to be a brain disease.

Quote:

Research is research and means nothing until its put into practice.



I disagree. Radiowaves weren't called radiowaves until the radio was invented; they were the thing being referred to by mathematical models of electromagnetic fields. This does not mean that the mathematical models of EM fields "meant nothing" prior to the invention of the radio. It simply means that the research hadn't been applied in such a way as to be comprehensible by the general public.

The same is true of addiction research. Neurobiological/Behavioral models of addiction themselves are more complicated than most people care to dig into. What people look at, instead, is the way in which they see models being applied. Unfortunately, what they quite often see, if they look at the set of options for addiction treatment, is disagreement, and/or profits-over-people situations.

If you read my above post, you will see that in an ideal situation, the kind of treatment a chemically-dependent person receives would vary on a case-by-case situation. But this is not the ideal world.

I would challenge those who are pushing this "lack of human connection" theory to come up with a realistic treatment plan and try to put it into action in humans. Until then, all they are is a fringe-group of mostly non-scientists regurgitating the same tired schpeal based off of an isolated rat study.


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Offlinekakashi68
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Re: Everything we know about addiction is wrong? [Re: morrowasted]
    #22459568 - 10/31/15 09:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Well... the way generally society thinks and treats addicts would be the "current model"


There are a lot of conflicting views about what addiction is. Some people simply see it as weakness. Some see it as a moral failing. Medical institutions consider it to be a brain disease.

Quote:

Research is research and means nothing until its put into practice.



I disagree. Radiowaves weren't called radiowaves until the radio was invented; they were the thing being referred to by mathematical models of electromagnetic fields. This does not mean that the mathematical models of EM fields "meant nothing" prior to the invention of the radio. It simply means that the research hadn't been applied in such a way as to be comprehensible by the general public.

The same is true of addiction research. Neurobiological/Behavioral models of addiction themselves are more complicated than most people care to dig into. What people look at, instead, is the way in which they see models being applied. Unfortunately, what they quite often see, if they look at the set of options for addiction treatment, is disagreement, and/or profits-over-people situations.

If you read my above post, you will see that in an ideal situation, the kind of treatment a chemically-dependent person receives would vary on a case-by-case situation. But this is not the ideal world.

I would challenge those who are pushing this "lack of human connection" theory to come up with a realistic treatment plan and try to put it into action in humans. Until then, all they are is a fringe-group of mostly non-scientists regurgitating the same tired schpeal based off of an isolated rat study.




your confusing the video with the actual theory... again. The actual theory has to do with the environment of the addict. You put them in a better environment or a better life and (as with all human trials) GENERALLY get rid of their addiction.

Radiowaves isnt medicine. Its not a worthy comparison. It is a mental illness, however this makes it very complex.


--------------------
You know, just sometimes in between the first cigarette with coffee in the morning to that 400th glass of cornershop piss at 3am--you do sometimes look at yourself and think--this is fantastic. I'm in heaven.
-Bernard Black



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