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OfflineP.Zappatecorum
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: DavidReishi]
    #22459946 - 10/31/15 11:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Super weird.  I think I read in another thread Stamets claims whatever toxin causes it gets boiled out.  I always boil my tea so who knows?  Most of the trips I've read about this happening there were pretty high doses on mostly raw mushrooms or mushroom honey.  With lemon tek, you're still eating the mushrooms.  I discard the mushroom when I make tea.  It vastly decreases the bodyload.  Would be interesting to see if you still had problems with boiled and strained tea.  Two other things I add are chamomile and ginger.  I thought they were inert but interestingly I've read that chamomile has some kind of enzyme inhibitor (not monoamine oxidase, something else) that potentiates the trip.  Maybe some of the other things I'm putting in there buffer it.  I'm hoping to have some allenii fruit from a patch I started last year this season, as well as azures, we'll see if I get any of the dreaded paralysis from those.  :shrug:


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Offlineconeconington
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
    #22460327 - 11/01/15 01:13 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting that this doesn't seem to happen with stunzii, considering the amount you need to eat. Or maybe because it's not primarily a woodlover?


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OfflineBozko
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: coneconington]
    #22462750 - 11/01/15 02:58 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Have you looked up botulinum toxin? The effects seem similar to what is described as woodlover paralysis, which I've only experienced on a high dose of wild-picked Azurescens (3 grams). If this bacteria manifests itself in improperly dried wild shrooms, it could very well be the cause of the unpleasant symptoms.  Cultivated specimens IME don't produce the toxic side-effects. If someone has experienced these symptoms with cultivated specimens I would love to hear about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulinum_toxin


Edited by Bozko (11/01/15 06:01 PM)


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: Bozko]
    #22463348 - 11/01/15 05:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Read the article. Sounds like a good fit.

But one part doesnt make sense.

When i get it, it causes really intense pain in my muscles. Kinda like lactic acid buildup from weigh-lifting workouts.

But yet in the article, it says it reduces muscle pain. Thats confusing.


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OfflineBozko
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #22463433 - 11/01/15 05:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I think that the pain reduction from the toxin may only be present at therapeutic levels. When I read this, from the main page on botulism, it really reminded me of my unpleasant experience. 

The muscle weakness of botulism characteristically starts in the muscles supplied by the cranial nerves. A group of twelve nerves controls eye movements, the facial muscles and the muscles controlling chewing and swallowing. Double vision, drooping of both eyelids, loss of facial expression and swallowing problems may therefore occur. In addition to affecting the voluntary muscles, it can also cause disruptions in the autonomic nervous system. This is experienced as a dry mouth and throat (due to decreased production of saliva), postural hypotension (decreased blood pressure on standing, with resultant lightheadedness and risk of blackouts), and eventually constipation (due to decreased peristalsis). Some of the toxins (B and E) also precipitate nausea and vomiting and difficulty with talking. The weakness then spreads to the arms (starting in the shoulders and proceeding to the forearms) and legs (again from the thighs down to the feet).

Clinicians frequently think of the symptoms of botulism in terms of a classic triad: bulbar palsy and descending paralysis, lack of fever, and clear senses and mental status ("clear sensorium").


To lighten the mood, on that same page they mention Infant Botulism, which is called, I shit you not, Floppy Baby Syndrome.


Edited by Bozko (11/01/15 06:04 PM)


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OfflineSnowDaze
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: Bozko]
    #22463863 - 11/01/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I feel like it would be scary as hell and send me in a bad trip for sure if I had this happen to me


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:gd_icon: If you get confused, listen to the music play :gd_icon:

:smugjerry: :feelswierman:

:wook: :barbershreds: :scumbagsteve:


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: Bozko]
    #22628820 - 12/08/15 06:32 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Hey, I was playing around with the same theory in another thread Unfortunately the timing of the symptoms don't match up. The Botulinum  toxin requires 24-72 hours to take effect, reflecting the time necessary to disrupt the synaptosomal process. In very rare circumstances, some individuals may require as many as five days for the full effect to be observed.

So far there have been two drugs that have had some positive effects on woodlover paralysis, Nootropil(piracetam) and Benadryl(Diphenhydramine).

I did however find this list of pesticides used by Portland Public Parks and Recreation (The guys spraying stuff where the mushrooms grown portland, Oregon and probably many other public parks and lands). I think its safe to say that if you are ingesting mushrooms that were picked in one these public places then you are also running the risk of ingesting any one of the chemicals on this list. Here is the full document.

PARK SERVICE ZONES APPROVED LIST
Areas of pest management: General community, neighborhood, regional, and urban parks.
HERBICIDES
Primary choices:

Gallery 75 DF (isoxaben) Used on shrub beds, tree circles, and other areas. Can be used in combination or rotation with oryzalin to broaden the spectrum of weeds prevented.

Garlon 3A, Lilly Miller Brush and Vine (triclopyr amine) Selective products for woody, difficult to control perennials. Used in spray and cut-stem applications, also for invasives and habitat restoration. Ranger Pro, Roundup Pro Concentrate, RU ProDry, Rodeo, Aquaneat,

Aquamaster (glyphosate) Primary vegetation control product used with other methods in shrub beds, tree circles, bare ground, and on invasive weeds.

Surflan AS (oryzalin) Used in shrub beds, tree circles, fence lines and other park areas for weed control. A primary liquid form preemergent product.

XL 2G (benefin+oryzalin) Combination product for wider spectrum weed control. Useful in sites where liquid products are more difficult to apply. This is a primary granular preemergent product.
Specialty uses:
DeMoss, Garden Safe Moss and Algae Killer, others (fatty acids) Moss control desiccant. For structures and non-vegetated surfaces. Not typically used, but possible sporadic use.

Scythe (pelargonic fatty acid) Minor use desiccant used for top-kill of early-stage, easily killed weeds.

FUNGICIDES

Fertilome Liquid Systemic Fungicide (propiconazole) Possible use for disease control for high
value plants in short term, special situations where long term plant health is affected. Typically not used, in park zones but retained for unusual circumstances.

Microcop (copper sulfate) Copper soap (copper octanoate) Possible use for disease control for high value plants in short term, special situations where long term plant health is affected. Typically not used in park zones, but retained for unusual circumstances.


Edited by djbabyjesus (12/08/15 06:44 AM)


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #22630681 - 12/08/15 04:47 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

But how could antihistamines treat herbicide poisoning?

Either way, mushrooms uptaking pesticides and herbicides is bad bad news that makes me paranoid. We need a member with a GS machine so we can see what the chemical make-up of these cyans are. Ps cyans do grow in public areas, but Ps azures grow on the coast, away from public herbicide spraying, so i dont think its the herbicides just yet.


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OfflineDr. Delban
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #22630859 - 12/08/15 05:46 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)



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Experimenting with sobriety


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Offlinewest coast hunt
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: Dr. Delban]
    #22631557 - 12/08/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Most of the time i hear of wood-lover paralysis its Azurescens, seems herbicides poisoning is unlikely.


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #22631595 - 12/08/15 08:11 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
But how could antihistamines treat herbicide poisoning?

Either way, mushrooms uptaking pesticides and herbicides is bad bad news that makes me paranoid. We need a member with a GS machine so we can see what the chemical make-up of these cyans are. Ps cyans do grow in public areas, but Ps azures grow on the coast, away from public herbicide spraying, so i dont think its the herbicides just yet.




Because it's not the anti-histaminergic properties of benadryl that treat Organophosphate poisoning. It's the anti-muscarinic properties effecting cholinergic systems. Organophosphate poisoning results from exposure to organophosphates (OPs), which cause the inhibition of acetylcholinesterase (AChE), leading to the accumulation of acetylcholine (ACh) in the body.

A muscarinic receptor antagonist(benadryl) acts in a similar way to Atropine.

There are costal safe zones yes, however as you get closer to the mouth of the columbia and into the delta flood zones, as well as the public parks, you are at a high risk of ingesting foreign chemicals. If you are finding high concentrations of drift wood, that should be a red flag. That drift wood is from some pretty nasty flooding that has happened over the years. The columbia river is literally a waste pipe from the local cities as well as our thriving agricultural and timber industry. There are paper mills, military bases rumored to make chemical weapons……The list of pollutants goes on… The coastline is defiantly not herbicide or pollution free.

The coast is only safe if you are outside of the high risk zones. I have a couple safe spots on the coast (thank jesus;). They are far away from any public influence and away from flood zones. You could eat tons of theses suckers without a shred of paralysis. The other ones from the high risk zones are not cool man(well kinda;)…. I mean cmon' man, effects lasting a week or more? Paralysis? Thats poison, not drugs. I would love for it to be untrue but it's pretty clear we are dealing with a foreign chemical here.


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: west coast hunt]
    #22631600 - 12/08/15 08:12 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

west coast hunt said:
Most of the time i hear of wood-lover paralysis its Azurescens, seems herbicides poisoning is unlikely.




What makes you think that?


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #22632143 - 12/08/15 09:47 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
You could eat tons of theses suckers without a shred of paralysis.




Whoa, hold on. Are you saying that you have eaten two types of Azures from two different areas (one near public areas, one untouched by people) and the untouched areas have Azures with ZERO side effects?

Thats craziness.


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #22632386 - 12/08/15 10:48 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
You could eat tons of theses suckers without a shred of paralysis.




Whoa, hold on. Are you saying that you have eaten two types of Azures from two different areas (one near public areas, one untouched by people) and the untouched areas have Azures with ZERO side effects?

Thats craziness.




Yes, absolutely. Craziness indeed.

In fact, I gifted about 10 grams(dry) of the good azures to a friend who ate them ALL over 3 days at a festival. He said he felt amazing. Like slow moving DMT three days in a row. Zero side effects reported.

It's nuts, but they are the facts.

I'll try to post some pics of the different kinds tonight.


Edited by djbabyjesus (12/08/15 10:51 PM)


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #22633703 - 12/09/15 10:51 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Please do.

I think you're on to something here...


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Offlineconeconington
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #22637342 - 12/10/15 06:59 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not 100% on this, but have there been as many reports of paralysis from European specimens? It seems more common in the US?
However, I found some this year in an area that definitely isn't treated with anything, and isn't in a flood plane/hasn't ever been flooded. But friends that tried them said there was an odd body load, with occasional muscle aches/cramps. Only one was aware of the possible side effects, even then he only knew about the paralysis part (I did tell him to research them first, but clearly he didn't do as much as he should have)

I forgot to mention, one friend who took the same dose didn't get any negative effects. The only difference they could provide was that they only ate the smaller (fresher?) fruits from a different patch located near the first.

I'm still leaning towards a bacterial contaminant, with the negative effects coming either direct from the organism or a chemical produced due to their presence?
Someone on this site must have access to a lab?

A few weeks back someone was asking what they should do for their final mycology/micro biology project at college (uni), finding out what's up with these shrooms would be a good one :wink:


Edited by coneconington (12/10/15 07:17 AM)


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Offlinederango
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Re: Wood lover paralysis [Re: coneconington]
    #25441771 - 09/07/18 04:37 AM (5 years, 4 months ago)

Hey,

Im not sure if i am posting in the most recent thread regarding this, but i have been thinking about it for many years and have read numerous posts over the years regarding paralysis symptoms from p. subaeruginosa.

Just wanted to tell the story of my own experience regarding this-

Had only tripped a few times on larger doses, took about 15g psubs fresh when 17 years old, mushrooms picked in a natural habitat and eaten within 24 hours.

We tripped at our primary school and it was hard to stay together as a group, after 3 hours or so and a good peak we left to walk to a friends house. On the way there two of us noticed our toes pointing downward with each step, we were continually tripping over our toes, unable to walk normally with much effort, it was frustrating.
After making it 2km to sit down for two hours or so me and the same friend had to walk home together. We visited a supermarket and bought lots of candy...including bubblegum (hubbabubba).
So about 6+ hours after ingesting the psubs the foot thing was more manageable, but eating the gum was impossible, and turned my lips inside out and they became stuck in that state for the whole walk home... i wanted to keep chewing the gum but i was just drooling everywhere and my bottom and top lip was completely folded out.

I remember feeling my lips and thinking 'wtf will they ever return to normal??'


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