Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
An open letter to all liberals... * 1
    #22448840 - 10/29/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

This essay is a bit of departure from my usually reasonable and logical approach to important issues.  That’s not to say that the essay isn’t well-reasoned and is bereft of logical argumentation, but I freely admit that it’s polemical, in nature.  Sometimes you’re just pissed, and you need to vent.  Here’s my vent…

Lately, I must admit that my hostility towards your political ilk has ramped up, pretty dramatically.  No, it’s not because we, at this point in my life, have a half-black president in the White House, and I’m some closet racist who is becoming increasingly frustrated at the prospects of the White Man’s power slipping through my fingers.  I know that you’ve accused our side of such nonsense, and the thought keeps you warm at night, but I can assure you that it is a comfortable fiction of which you should probably divest yourself.

Now before I waste too much of your time, let’s establish who I’m talking to.  If you believe that we live in an evil, imperialist nation from its founding, and you believe that it should be “fundamentally transformed”, lend me your ears.  If you believe that the free market is the source of the vast majority of society’s ills and wish to have more government intervention into it, I’m talking to you.  If you believe that health care is a basic human right and that government should provide it to everyone, you’re the guy I’m screaming at.  If you think minorities cannot possibly survive in this inherently racist country without handouts and government mandated diversity quotas, you’re my guy.  If you believe that rich people are that way because they’ve exploited their workers and acquired wealth on the backs of the poor, keep reading.  Pretty much, if you trust government more than your fellow American, this post is for you.

First of all, let me say that we probably agree on more things than you think.  Even between Tea Party Patriots and Occupy Wall-Streeters, I’ve observed a common hatred of the insidious alliance between big business and big government.  As Representative Paul Ryan (R-WI) so correctly noted, government should never be in the business of picking winners and losers in corporate America, and no person, organization, union, or corporation should have their own key to the back door of our government.

Second, contrary to popular belief, conservatives really are concerned with the plight of the poor in this nation.  You accuse us of being uncompassionate, hateful, racist, and greedy, but studies have shown that when it comes to charitable giving, conservatives are at least (if not more, depending on the study you read) as generous as liberals in caring for the poor.  The difference between us is not in our attitude towards the problem – it’s our attitude towards the solution.  We believe that the government does practically nothing well (since without competition or a profit motive there is no incentive to do well) and has made the plight of the poor far worse than it would have ever been had government never gotten involved.  For a stark example of this, look no farther than the condition of the black family in America since the “War on Poverty” began.  You believe that more government is the answer, and that if we only throw more money at the problem, the problem will go away.  We believe, as Reagan so aptly stated,

Government is not the solution to our problems;  government is the problem.

Third, as people who might actually have to avail ourselves of a doctor’s services at some point in our lives, we are just as concerned with the condition of America’s healthcare system as you are.  While we believe that America has the world’s most capable physicians, has the world’s most innovative pharmaceutical industry, and is on the cutting edge of medical technology, we also understand that the delivery system is far from perfect.  However, unlike you, we see a grave danger in turning the administration of that delivery system over to the same entity that is responsible for giving us the United States Postal Service.  There are private sector solutions that should certainly be explored before we kill the system, altogether, by giving it to the government to run.

Now that we’ve touched on a couple of points of common ground, allow me to explain my aggressiveness towards your efforts to implement your progressive agenda.  First, let’s talk about the word “progressive”, since you now seem to prefer that word to “liberal”.  In order to label something as progressive or regressive, one must have some idea as to what constitutes progress.  What is the ideal towards which you are striving?  An idea is considered progressive if it moves us closer to the ideal and regressive if it moves us further away.  So, what is your ideal society?
Though I can’t begin to discern the thoughts of every liberal who may read this, nor can I assume that every liberal has the same notion of an ideal society, in my arguments with liberals over the years, I couldn’t help but notice the influence that FDR’s Second Bill of Rights has had in shaping the beliefs of the modern liberal with regards to domestic policy.  The rights that FDR cited are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

At this point, you’re probably screaming, “Right on!!”, and who can blame you?  What sane person in the world doesn’t want everyone to be gainfully employed, adequately fed, smartly clothed, appropriately sheltered, and properly educated?  These are the goals of every moral society on the planet, however we cannot ignore the fundamental question of, “At what cost?”

I’m not sure whether FDR was a shallow thinker or simply a shrewd, Machiavellian politician, but the fact that he framed each of these ideals as a human right should be troubling to every freedom-loving person in America.  After all, what does it mean for something to be a human right?  Doesn’t it mean that it’s something to which you are entitled simply by virtue of your being human?  Let’s think about some of the basic rights that the real Bill of Rights delineates: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to petition the government, freedom to bear arms, freedom from illegal search and seizure, etc.

If you’re moderately intelligent and intellectually honest, you’ll quickly see what separates the rights laid out in the real Bill of Rights from those laid out in FDR’s misguided list – none of the rights listed above require the time, treasure, or talents of another human being.  Your right to speak requires nothing from anyone else.  Your right to practice your religion requires nothing from any of your fellow citizens.  Your right to bear arms means that you are allowed to possess weapons to defend yourself and your family, but it makes no demand that a weapon be provided to you by anyone.  A true human right is one that you possess, even if you’re the only person on the entire planet – and it is unconditional.

FDR’s list is no “Bill of Rights”.  It’s a list of demands.  If I have a right to a job, doesn’t that mean that one must be provided to me?  If I have a right to adequate food, clothing, and recreation, doesn’t that mean that I am entitled to those things, and someone should provide them to me?  If I have an inherent right to a decent home, once again, doesn’t that mean it should be provided to me, regardless of my ability to afford one or build one for myself? 

You might protest that FDR only meant that we have the right to pursue those things, but that’s not what he said, and why would he?  If we live in a free society, our right to pursue those things is self-evident, is it not?  Besides, if he only believed in our right to pursue those things, he would not have felt the need to implement the New Deal.

You may be getting anxious, now, wondering what FDR’s Second Bill of Rights has to do with my antipathy towards your political philosophy.  It’s quite simple – your political beliefs are a threat to liberty – not just for me, but for my three boys and their children as well.  I care much less about the America that I’m living in at this very moment than I do about the one that I’m leaving Nathaniel, Charlie, and Jackson.

How does your political bent threaten my and my sons personal liberty, you ask?  In your irrational attempt to classify things such as clothing, shelter, health care, employment, and income as basic human rights, you are placing a demand upon my time, my treasure, and my talents.  If you believe that you have a right to health care, and you are successful in persuading enough shallow thinkers to think as you do, then it will place a demand upon me to provide it to you.  If you believe that you have a right to a job, and more than half of America agrees with you, as a business owner, I am obligated to provide one to you, even if it means making my business less profitable.

The fact is, you can rail against my conservatism all you wish.  You can make fun of my Tea Party gatherings, and you can ridicule patriots in tri-corner hats until you wet yourself from mirth, but one thing is for certain: my political philosophy will NEVER be a threat to your freedom.  If you feel a burning responsibility to the poor, conservatism will never prevent you from working 80 hours per week and donating all of your income to charity.  If you feel a strong sense of pity for a family who cannot afford health insurance, my political philosophy will never prevent you from purchasing health insurance for this family or raising money to do so, if you cannot afford it, personally.  If you are moved with compassion for a family who is homeless, a conservative will never use the police power of government to prevent you from taking that family in to your own home or mobilizing your community to build one for them.

However, you cannot say the same for liberalism.  If I choose not to give to the poor for whatever reason, you won’t simply try to persuade me on the merits of the idea – you will seek to use the government as an instrument of plunder to force me to give to the poor.  If we are walking down the street together and we spot a homeless person, using this logic, you would not simply be content with giving him $20 from your own pocket – you would hold a gun to my head and force me to give him $20, as well.

Everything that modern liberalism accomplishes is accomplished at the barrel of a government rifle.  You do not trust in the generosity of the American people to provide, through private charity, things such as clothing, food, shelter, and health care, so you empower the government to take from them and spend the money on wasteful, inefficient, and inadequate government entitlement programs.  You do not trust in the personal responsibility of the average American to wield firearms in defense of themselves and their families, so you seek to empower the government to criminalize the use and possession of firearms by private citizens.  Everytime you empower the government, you lose more of your personal liberty – it’s an axiomatic truth.

What angers me the most about you is the eagerness with which you allow the incremental enslavement to occur.  You are the cliched and proverbial frog in the pot who has actually convinced himself that he’s discovered a big, silver jacuzzi.  Somehow, you’re naive enough to believe that one more degree of heat won’t really matter that much.

I have the utmost respect for a slave who is continuously seeking a path to freedom.  What I cannot stomach is a free man who is continuous seeking a path to servitude by willingly trading his freedom for the false sense of security that government will provide.

I am reminded of Samuel Adams’ impassioned speech where he stated:

“If ye love wealth (or security) better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”

Servitude can exist in a free society, but freedom cannot exist in a slave nation.  In a free country, you have the liberty to join with others of your political ilk and realize whatever collectivist ideals you can dream up.  You can start your own little commune where the sign at the front gate says, “From each according to his ability; to each according to his need”, and everyone can work for the mutual benefit of everyone else.  In my society, you have the freedom to do that.
In your society, I don’t have the same freedom.  If your collectivism offends me, I am not free to start my own free society within its borders.  In order for collectivism to work, everyone must be on board, even those who oppose it – why do you think there was a Berlin Wall?

In conclusion, just know that the harder you push to enact your agenda, the more hostile I will become – the harder I will fight you.  It’s nothing personal, necessarily.  If you want to become a slave to an all-powerful central government, be my guest.  But if you are planning to take me and my family down with you, as we say down here in the South, I will stomp a mud-hole in your chest and walk it dry.




http://sufficient-reason.tumblr.com/post/26781491317/dear-liberalheres-why-im-so-hostile


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Edited by hostileuniverse (10/31/15 09:27 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleairclay
Morbid and Wrong
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22449535 - 10/29/15 02:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

This is the largest pile of misunderstanding I've ever seen

also it might behoove the author to not just assume he/she is correct and everyone else is wrong


--------------------
Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: airclay]
    #22450511 - 10/29/15 06:49 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:

also it might behoove the author to not just assume he/she is correct and everyone else is wrong




That's kinda the point of an opinion piece

Also, this guy was spot on, clear, concise, his point will be lost on many, but not to those who truly value their freedom


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineArctic W. Fox
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/23/14
Posts: 1,357
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22450584 - 10/29/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Too much shit to read on a phone... Just give me the highlights (lemme guess; wah wah wah).


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: Arctic W. Fox] * 1
    #22452394 - 10/30/15 06:26 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Servitude can exist in a free society, but freedom cannot exist in a slave nation.  In a free country, you have the liberty to join with others of your political ilk and realize whatever collectivist ideals you can dream up.  You can start your own little commune where the sign at the front gate says, “From each according to his ability; to each according to his need”, and everyone can work for the mutual benefit of everyone else.  In my society, you have the freedom to do that.
In your society, I don’t have the same freedom.  If your collectivism offends me, I am not free to start my own free society within its borders.  In order for collectivism to work, everyone must be on board, even those who oppose it – why do you think there was a Berlin Wall?




--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse] * 2
    #22452424 - 10/30/15 06:36 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Opinion claims to be reasonable, admits that it's venting, doesn't understand economics well enough to see how labor is exploited under capatilsm.

Beyond that, tldr.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22456594 - 10/31/15 06:06 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The fact is, you can rail against my conservatism all you wish... one thing is for certain: my political philosophy will NEVER be a threat to your freedom.  If you feel a burning responsibility to the poor, conservatism will never prevent you from working 80 hours per week and donating all of your income to charity.  If you feel a strong sense of pity for a family who cannot afford health insurance, my political philosophy will never prevent you from purchasing health insurance for this family or raising money to do so, if you cannot afford it, personally.  If you are moved with compassion for a family who is homeless, a conservative will never use the police power of government to prevent you from taking that family in to your own home or mobilizing your community to build one for them.
However, you cannot say the same for liberalism.  If I choose not to give to the poor for whatever reason, you won’t simply try to persuade me on the merits of the idea – you will seek to use the government as an instrument of plunder to force me to give to the poor.  If we are walking down the street together and we spot a homeless person, using this logic, you would not simply be content with giving him $20 from your own pocket – you would hold a gun to my head and force me to give him $20, as well.




:thumbup:


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22456683 - 10/31/15 07:24 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22456859 - 10/31/15 08:41 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism




Quote:

the citizenry is lulled and manipulated into surrendering their liberties




sounds like socialism to me:shrug:

Quote:

While it is a system that aspires to totality, it is driven by an ideology of the cost-effective




single payer?:shrug:

Quote:

Under managed democracy, the electorate is prevented from having a significant impact on policies adopted by the state through the continuous employment of public relations techniques




this is the problem with centralized govt and unelected officials, no matter who we elect, the progressive agenda advances regardless...

Quote:

in the United States it is left to highly concentrated media corporations, thus maintaining the illusion of a "free press"




the mainstream media, and the only ones who go against them, (Fox News, Talk Radio, RUSH LIMBAUGH) are vilified in an attempt to silence the dissent

Quote:

Changes in college education also silence dissent ... Adjunct professors ... are less willing to teach topics that are viewed as controversial




for fear of being castigated by their peers, there is no teaching of the constitution, liberty or the essentials of capitalism that have made this country great. Instead, our colleges are run by liberals and progressives with a focus on indoctrination, rather than education.

your link was somewhat correct in its observations, but flawed in its reasonings for it


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDavesnothere
Stoner
Male

Registered: 10/22/15
Posts: 63
Loc: MI
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22456889 - 10/31/15 08:55 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

RTF on. Good opinion.


--------------------
Disappointment is caused by unrealistic expectations.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMaroon
Stranger

Registered: 08/25/15
Posts: 1,897
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: Davesnothere]
    #22456894 - 10/31/15 09:01 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

A space between paragraphs and maybe people would read it


--------------------
UNDENIABLE PROOF A MODERATOR (Enlil) USES FRAUDULENT POSTS TO SUPOORT HIS OPINIONS.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23596771#23596771 ; anyone can verify my original post in its unedited format. This proves the length the disinfo whores will go to defend pseudo theories. What quack jobs. Time to get out of moms basement.

One must ask why they would be complicit in crimes against humanity? Is debt based money really worth whoring out your credibility for?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22457108 - 10/31/15 10:20 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

No teaching of capitalism?  Have you set in a college economics class?

And please tell me what the progressive agenda is, in your opinion.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (10/31/15 10:23 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22457187 - 10/31/15 10:41 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
No teaching of capitalism?  Have you set in a college economics class?

And please tell me what the progressive agenda is, in your opinion.




just a couple of good articles outlining the issues

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/208917/liberal-academia-and-my-struggle-survival-david-e-firester

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/11/how-liberals-have-ruined-college.html

from teaching the "occupy wall street" ideology to shutting down free speech, the agenda is real and yes, it is being pushed


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22457732 - 10/31/15 01:21 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

My response to the first link.

So a new professor felt the curriculum and textbook being used was biased.  He doesn't say what textbook that was only that it was pushing socialism and the occupy movement.  He wants to balance things out by having the students read a few chapters from Mark Levin.  The administration doesn't approve.  His mentor tries to explain to him that Levin's book wasn't peer reviewed.

Note this was a political sciences course.  I found nothing in the article that backs up your shutting down free speech agenda (which is certainly not the liberal agenda but let's see if the second link backs up your claim).

Okay, so your second link actually does a better job of explaining what you think the liberal agenda is and she even cites specific examples.  I'm not going to critique her examples individually, some I can agree with her position and other's I don't.  But there's liberals that find the shaming and obsession with being PC just as annoying as you do.  Social Justice Warrior is a common pejorative on liberal forums.  There was a great article posted by AirClay here.  Of course the thread turned into partisan bickering but if you look at the meat of it it's talking about the same thing the article is.

It's a very similar thing to what far-right Christians do.  Trying to force morality on everyone.  Yes, there's those on the left that do it too.  The thread I linked above has some good discussion I believe on the psychology behind it.

But that wasn't at all what I was talking about though when I linked Inverted Totalitarianism.  Economics courses are almost entirely about capitalism.  Listen to Richard Wolff sometime.  He didn't learn about Marxian theories until after he earned his phD.  My wife had an economics professor that heavily pushed Laissez Faire economics (note Adam Smith didn't even go this far).

Practical economics is split into economics and business and generally divorced from sociology.  Inverted Totalitarianism is the idea that the state and the economic forces are so intertwined that democracy is more or less an illusion.  At the top it looks as though the people have a say but in actually a very small number of people are really making the decisions.

There's Ds and Rs that both do this.  The agenda is globalization and corporate control.  This is why we need so desperately to get money out of politics.  But it goes beyond that.  We need to have a free press too.  We don't have a democracy, we have a capitalist economy and a government that support it.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (10/31/15 01:30 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22465641 - 11/02/15 07:44 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

If it's unregulated predatory capitalism + collusion with government vs. regulated capitalism + social safety nets ... I'll vote for regulated capitalism.

If we were really serious about the principles of free market capitalism as put forth by Adam Smith, then I'd feel differently, but we have nothing that resembles free market capitalism in America.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: KauaiOrca] * 1
    #22465729 - 11/02/15 08:05 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Free market socialism I could probably get behind.  But we're far away from that and in the meantime I'd like to see social nets + capitalism with programs to encourage workplace democracy.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22465755 - 11/02/15 08:19 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Govt collusion with corporations is what has created these problems, I don't understand the logic in giving govt more control over these companies. Many of you say the corporations own the politicians, right, that's because we have given govt the power to write regulations for them, if the govt wasn't allowed to enforce their will, there would be no reason for corporations to "buy" them.

Let the free market reign, and the politicians would lose all their power, and so would the corporations


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22465771 - 11/02/15 08:25 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

No.  Government collusion didn't create these problems.  Concentrated power created them and freeing the market isn't going to magically make that go away.

Which is why I would possibly support a free market model of socialism but would not support free market capitalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22465785 - 11/02/15 08:31 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Govt collusion with corporations is what has created these problems, I don't understand the logic in giving govt more control over these companies. Many of you say the corporations own the politicians, right, that's because we have given govt the power to write regulations for them, if the govt wasn't allowed to enforce their will, there would be no reason for corporations to "buy" them.

Let the free market reign, and the politicians would lose all their power, and so would the corporations




It's not govt collusion with corporations, it's corporations buying off government and essentially employing the political class.  Government didn't go knocking on the door of business, it was the other way around ... and as they got their hooks into government, they started changing the rules so it became nearly impossible to get elected without huge business sponsors.  You've really got it backwards.  Now, of course government does go out and solicit business, but that's the way business WANTS IT.

If you look at the history of America, there was a very strong effort to keep corporations OUT of the political sphere and arena. 

Why have anti slavery laws?  Why have anti child labor law about overtime or laws that prevent corporations from price fixing and colluding to keep wages down?  Total and completely unrestricted capitalism would not outlaw any of these things.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22465790 - 11/02/15 08:34 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Not to mention destroying the air and then turning around and selling us gas masks.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22465798 - 11/02/15 08:38 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Not to mention destroying the air and then turning around and selling us gas masks.




Or creating chemical filled foods then the medicines to handle the chronic problems they create ...


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22465814 - 11/02/15 08:46 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

Let the free market reign, and the politicians would lose all their power, and so would the corporations




HU, did you believe the tobacco companies were telling the truth all those years about health and addiction risk?

Do you believe that pain killer producers tell the truth about the dangers of their drugs without extreme government pressure?

Do you believe beer companies would be working even harder to reach teens if government regulation was not in place to prevent it?

Do you believe companies like Monsanto are telling the complete truth about risks from their chemicals, fertilizers and GMO seeds?

Do you believe GM and other car companies tell the truth when their mistakes start causing accidents and deaths?

Do you believe McDonalds has told the complete truth about health risks from their food preparation methods?

I'm just curious how gullible you are?  Total and complete low reg Free market capitalism would not create more truth and transparency ... it would have the exact OPPOSITE effect.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22465920 - 11/02/15 09:33 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:


Which is why I would possibly support a free market model of socialism

url]




That's an oxymoron, there is no free market in socialist economies, regardless of what you've been sold...


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22465942 - 11/02/15 09:40 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

Let the free market reign, and the politicians would lose all their power, and so would the corporations




HU, did you believe the tobacco companies were telling the truth all those years about health and addiction risk?

Do you believe that pain killer producers tell the truth about the dangers of their drugs without extreme government pressure?

Do you believe beer companies would be working even harder to reach teens if government regulation was not in place to prevent it?

Do you believe companies like Monsanto are telling the complete truth about risks from their chemicals, fertilizers and GMO seeds?

Do you believe GM and other car companies tell the truth when their mistakes start causing accidents and deaths?

Do you believe McDonalds has told the complete truth about health risks from their food preparation methods?

I'm just curious how gullible you are?  Total and complete low reg Free market capitalism would not create more truth and transparency ... it would have the exact OPPOSITE effect.




There are plenty of private studies on all these topics, how gullible are you to think that if govt doesn't do it, it won't get done?

Let's talk about personal accountability, why are you so eager to hold corporations responsible, yet not individuals? Anyone knows that inhaling smoke is probably not good, regardless of the source, anyone knows that eating greasy fried food all the time is gonna make you fat, lol. But you think people should not be responsible for their health choices, gotta have daddy govt holding our hands and telling us what's good for us, that's how liberalism I think has taken hold, telling us they're looking out for our best interests, and all its been is a play for total control over our lives from the start



And btw, even independent studies have found no link between gmo's and any type of health problem, I thought you liked facts, there's a huge thread around here debunking all these claims about gmo's and I'm sorry you're too silly to accept the facts


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22466036 - 11/02/15 10:07 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

And btw, even independent studies have found no link between gmo's and any type of health problem, I thought you liked facts, there's a huge thread around here debunking all these claims about gmo's and I'm sorry you're too silly to accept the facts




Even Russia isn't allowing GMO's anymore.  Wonder why?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22466328 - 11/02/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:


Which is why I would possibly support a free market model of socialism






That's an oxymoron, there is no free market in socialist economies, regardless of what you've been sold...




Really?

Anarcho-Syndicalism has historical precedent.  Can you show an example of free market capitalism functioning in the real world to the benefit of all instead of just a few?

Quote:

George Orwell said:
I had dropped more or less by chance into the only community of any size in Western Europe where political consciousness and disbelief in capitalism were more normal than their opposites. Up here in Aragón one was among tens of thousands of people, mainly though not entirely of working-class origin, all living at the same level and mingling on terms of equality. In theory it was perfect equality, and even in practice it was not far from it. There is a sense in which it would be true to say that one was experiencing a foretaste of Socialism, by which I mean that the prevailing mental atmosphere was that of Socialism. Many of the normal motives of civilised life– snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.– had simply ceased to exist. The ordinary class-division of society had disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money-tainted air of England; there was no one there except the peasants and ourselves, and no one owned anyone else as his master.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution_of_1936

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: KauaiOrca] * 2
    #22466671 - 11/02/15 01:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

And btw, even independent studies have found no link between gmo's and any type of health problem, I thought you liked facts, there's a huge thread around here debunking all these claims about gmo's and I'm sorry you're too silly to accept the facts




Even Russia isn't allowing GMO's anymore.  Wonder why?




The same reason the US is falling for the climate hoax. It's political, politics with no factual basis for the real world economics


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22466901 - 11/02/15 02:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Monsanto is fucking horrible.  GMOs are not.  Banning GMOs would be like if we banned PCs because of Microsoft.  I was already skeptical of the anti-GMO crowd but was pro-labeling until I heard some of the arguments Enlil posted in the thread HU just mentioned.

As far as the climate change hoax...

:huxleyfacepalm:


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleburgerbrain
Freedom Lover
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22469264 - 11/03/15 01:28 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Free market socialism I could probably get behind.  But we're far away from that and in the meantime I'd like to see social nets + capitalism with programs to encourage workplace democracy.




LOL "Free market socialism"

Is that like state capitalism?

:lolsy:

How stupid can these libtards get?



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleburgerbrain
Freedom Lover
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22473993 - 11/03/15 11:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Back on topic: Excellent article, thank you hu!


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22474557 - 11/04/15 05:40 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Anarcho-Syndicalism has historical precedent.  Can you show an example of free market capitalism functioning in the real world to the benefit of all instead of just a few?





Yes, America!

Believe it or not, American style capitalism has raised the standard of living for everyone living here, not to mention the other countries that have embraced similar free market principles.


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22474787 - 11/04/15 07:24 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

The U.S has always been a mixed economy.  I don't deny that mixed market capitalism can work.  What I'd like to see is an example of free market capitalism working in the real world.

I've shown a socialist model.  Is there a capatlist one?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleburgerbrain
Freedom Lover
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22475303 - 11/04/15 10:10 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The U.S has always been a mixed economy.  I don't deny that mixed market capitalism can work.  What I'd like to see is an example of free market capitalism working in the real world.

I've shown a socialist model.  Is there a capatlist one?




"No free market examples, derp derp"




--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22476030 - 11/04/15 11:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The U.S has always been a mixed economy.  I don't deny that mixed market capitalism can work.  What I'd like to see is an example of free market capitalism working in the real world.

I've shown a socialist model.  Is there a capatlist one?




I've provided examples before, you just don't think they count, lol


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroom Detective
Stranger
Registered: 07/02/14
Posts: 1,699
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22482851 - 11/05/15 08:07 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
"I, Falcon91Wolvrn03, am a BIG FAT LIAR; so much so, that my pants are on fire."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleburgerbrain
Freedom Lover
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: Shroom Detective]
    #22483387 - 11/05/15 09:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroom Detective said:





Hopefully the socialist fucktard morons watch this one


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22484612 - 11/06/15 06:45 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Shroom Detective said:





Hopefully the socialist fucktard morons watch this one




They won't, they're too busy picking on Carson for turning his life around instead of continuing on the liberal path to destruction...


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22485469 - 11/06/15 10:44 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I watched it.  Anyone who believes that accurately represents reality is incredibly ignorant.  And look who's promoting it... :smirk:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleburgerbrain
Freedom Lover
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22485636 - 11/06/15 11:20 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I watched it.  Anyone who believes that accurately represents reality is incredibly ignorant.  And look who's promoting it... :smirk:




You watched it? If you did then you didn't understand the meaning, you just say "ignorant" with no examples like that has some validity in the real world. Wake up, liberal socialist


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22486084 - 11/06/15 01:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
you just say "ignorant" with no examples like that has some validity in the real world. Wake up, liberal socialist



First of all, I'm not a socialist, but you can't seem to stop with the name calling.  I guess you think that's your best argument.

Here's a few quotes from the video:

"...ISM even makes the weather perfect everyday!"
Please tell us where communism makes that claim?

"I hereby turnover to ISM Incorporated... my freedom"
Please tell us what freedom communism takes away (other than the freedom for the 1% to take advantage of the rest of us).

"When anybody tries to pit one of us against the other through class warfare... you know that person seeks to rob us of our freedom"
So if poor people complain, they're against freedom now?!?!?!

"under ISM, Farmers don't vote anymore"
Communism does NOT take away the right to vote.



Did you notice the video also happens to be very pro-union?

"You can't do this to me, I'll strike!"
"Wait till the union hears about this!"

I you agree with the video, you should be pro union!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleburgerbrain
Freedom Lover
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22493927 - 11/08/15 01:30 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
you just say "ignorant" with no examples like that has some validity in the real world. Wake up, liberal socialist



First of all, I'm not a socialist, but you can't seem to stop with the name calling.  I guess you think that's your best argument.

Here's a few quotes from the video:

"...ISM even makes the weather perfect everyday!"
Please tell us where communism makes that claim?

"I hereby turnover to ISM Incorporated... my freedom"
Please tell us what freedom communism takes away (other than the freedom for the 1% to take advantage of the rest of us).

"When anybody tries to pit one of us against the other through class warfare... you know that person seeks to rob us of our freedom"
So if poor people complain, they're against freedom now?!?!?!

"under ISM, Farmers don't vote anymore"
Communism does NOT take away the right to vote.



Did you notice the video also happens to be very pro-union?

"You can't do this to me, I'll strike!"
"Wait till the union hears about this!"

I you agree with the video, you should be pro union!




Communism/Socialism does claim many impossible things like "Everyone will have free food, free housing, free college" a lot like controlling the weather.

If I have to tell you what freedoms that communism takes away then there's really no educating you. Communism is responsible for millions of deaths, Are you saying when communism kills people that is freedom?

Class warfare is a lot like what Obowma is doing, and yes it, by definition, means warfare between the classes. Duh

Communism does remove the vote, do you think people actually voted to stand in bread lines?

Unions are fine, except when they're public unions that are bankrupting our country.


Well, tired of educating you, nite.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22495757 - 11/08/15 01:43 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Communism/Socialism does claim many impossible things like "Everyone will have free food, free housing, free college" a lot like controlling the weather.



No, communism does NOT claim everyone gets free food.  And people DID get free education and free housing in the Soviet Union.  Please educate yourself before making ignorant posts.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
If I have to tell you what freedoms that communism takes away then there's really no educating you. Communism is responsible for millions of deaths, Are you saying when communism kills people that is freedom?



World War II was responsible for tens of millions of deaths.  Are you saying when capitalists kill people, that is freedom?  Please stop with the stupid arguments.  Starvation was almost non-existent after Stalin's death (whom Soviets generally despise by the way).

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Class warfare, by definition, means warfare between the classes. Duh



I know that's what it means.  Can you make an argument without a straw man?  My point was that poor people complaining about their situation is NOT the same as "robbing us of our freedom", as the video claimed.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Communism does remove the vote, do you think people actually voted to stand in bread lines?



:picard:  Do you think Americans voted to stand in breadlines?


I don't know why I bother responding to you.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (11/08/15 01:53 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleburgerbrain
Freedom Lover
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22496255 - 11/08/15 03:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Communism/Socialism does claim many impossible things like "Everyone will have free food, free housing, free college" a lot like controlling the weather.



No, communism does NOT claim everyone gets free food.  And people DID get free education and free housing in the Soviet Union.  Please educate yourself before making ignorant posts.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
If I have to tell you what freedoms that communism takes away then there's really no educating you. Communism is responsible for millions of deaths, Are you saying when communism kills people that is freedom?



World War II was responsible for tens of millions of deaths.  Are you saying when capitalists kill people, that is freedom?  Please stop with the stupid arguments.  Starvation was almost non-existent after Stalin's death (whom Soviets generally despise by the way).

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Class warfare, by definition, means warfare between the classes. Duh



I know that's what it means.  Can you make an argument without a straw man?  My point was that poor people complaining about their situation is NOT the same as "robbing us of our freedom", as the video claimed.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Communism does remove the vote, do you think people actually voted to stand in bread lines?



:picard:  Do you think Americans voted to stand in breadlines?


I don't know why I bother responding to you.




Yes Communism does ration the food out, for free, that's why there were shortages that killed millions of people. Good job commie scum. Go learn something before you start spouting, lib.

So governments started WWII but revisionist libtards want to blame "Capitalism", good one.

Yes when OBowelmovement does his class warfare tactics, in the name of redistribution, we all lose freedoms because we have to give more of our money to the government to "redistribute"... or does your lib brain refute this?

LOL of course people didn't vote for the Dust bowl. Are you equating the Dust bowl with Communism? LOL Hilarious, good one.

I have no idea why I keep educating you on this stuff, but any more questions lib?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22497103 - 11/08/15 06:04 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Most libs adore communism, why do you think they love Castro and Cuba so much? Free healthcare and education for all, sure, it sucks, but at least it's "fair"

Their idiocy really is astounding...


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22498367 - 11/08/15 10:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Most libs adore communism, why do you think they love Castro and Cuba so much? Free healthcare and education for all, sure, it sucks, but at least it's "fair"

Their idiocy really is astounding...



Seriously?  ANOTHER straw man?

I can't do it anymore.  You, burgerbrain, and Shroom Detective can make up all the fake stories you feel like - I'm going to save my arguments for the smarter people here.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroom Detective
Stranger
Registered: 07/02/14
Posts: 1,699
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22498857 - 11/09/15 01:45 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
"I, Falcon91Wolvrn03, am a BIG FAT LIAR; so much so, that my pants are on fire."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMachiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: Shroom Detective]
    #22499298 - 11/09/15 07:46 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with you on a good bit of what you're saying, but in my opinion that republican party has almost nothing to do with anything you said.

Legislated Wealth Redistribution and Big Govt.:  In Principle, I'm against this.  But Republicans loooove the military.  They'll throw even more money at them when we should be cutting our military spending.  What are the real threats.  China is going to launch an all out offensive against us?  Who's gonna buy their plastic crap, repay our debt, and pay them to throw away that same plastic crap in the middle of the pacific ocean if they do that?  Republicans just shift spending from "public works projects" to corporate interest tax cuts/nobid contracts and charity for the military industrial complex (not that democrats don't do some of that too.)  So given THAT choice, I would rather see social services for which there is benefit.  Also republicans seem to love running a deficit for some reason.

Protectionism:  It is my firm belief that if we as Americans want to maintain a western standard of living, we need jobs in our country, which aren't created by the govt giving people jobs, but are created by removing unfair competition based on human rights exploitation and poor environmental standards.  Alexander Hamilton did it at the start of the country so the united states could become industrially competitive with britain, and it worked.  We don't make shit.  You can say this could be accomplished by individuals valuing American goods, but I feel that's ignorant of human nature.

Walmart and its ilk exemplify proverbial sociopaths that offer cookies to the fat man trying to lose weight, heroin to the addict trying to quit.

American exceptionalism is dead.  The majority of the country is a gaggle of mediocre ingrates who are middlemen in a vast network for the distribution of chinese crap and industrially farmed corn.  Yeah, we got biotech, some science, bigAG, computer hardware development, software development, entertainment, and military industrial.  Can't be more than 5% of the US population involved in those actually creating things that previously didn't exist, rather than middle-manning or providing services.  Just guessing.




Campaign Reform/Citizens United:  As long as corporations buy the government, we don't have much of a real choice anyway, so I'll pretty much vote for anyone that's trying to get rid of this legalized bribery.  It would be hard enough to fucking control if it wasn't legal.  This might actually allow more parties, ones that might actually represent our beliefs, to have a chance.

Separation of Church and State:  Legislating all this Christian shit...  No thanks, Democrats win hands down.

Legalizing Drugs:  And ending a racially biased and useless exercise in denial of civil rights?  Talk about fucking expenditures there.  some democrats and Rand.

Nuclear Power:  The most environmentally friendly and practical power solution.  Most democrats have it wrong here, but republicans are so in the pocket of big oil (how republicans feel about keystone xl :blowme:)  Republicans friendzone nuclear power.


Immigration:  Apparently hardly any mexicans are even immigrating here any more, more are going back to mexico, so I don't see protecting the border as an issue.  Waltzing across the border to poop babies out into our welfare system does piss me off though, so good on texas for that shit.

Gun Control:  I'm not in favor of a lot of gun control, but fuck, at least keep a registry of gun owners, do background checks, and perhaps have a waiting period on assault weapons?  Bill Maher has this one nailed even though I don't agree with his stance, "Republicans LOOOOOVE guns, and Democrats love them just a little bit less."  Owning a gun is an important right to me, owning a 50cal machine gun and 500 AR-15's with 100 drum mags isn't.


Militarized Police:  Democrats tend to be more in favor of reforming the right hand of dictatorship.  Republicans also don't seem to give a shit that police tend to shoot a lot of black people.

Cuba:  Why not trade with them, their youth aren't working in factories getting poisoned by benzene like Chinese iPhone factories.

Environment:  Republicans think the environment will attend to itself, or jesus will fix it???

Oh yeah, and if you're pissed about Obama leaving our military overseas, it wouldn't surprise me if a Republican invaded Iran.  They were all up in arms over the Iran deal.  I'm half-Israeli, and I think it was smart to severely limit their nuclear capacity rather than invade them, especially when Iran is starting to work more with western countries against ISIS.




The republican party has devolved into a bunch of whiny children who won't do anything that makes sense if democrats are in favor of it.  Believing Jesus rode around on a dinosaur in North America is more acceptable than two men adopting a child to these people.

Rand is the only one of them I'd vote for that I'm aware of and he's a spitwad on the surface of mars atm.

Honestly I haven't even formed opinions on which way I lean on a lot of governmental issues, because my vote won't reflect them regardless.  At this point, I'll take ANY system working well over one system I slightly favor working like shit.


--------------------


I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


Edited by Machiavelliavore (11/09/15 08:03 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22499308 - 11/09/15 07:50 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Most libs adore communism, why do you think they love Castro and Cuba so much? Free healthcare and education for all, sure, it sucks, but at least it's "fair"

Their idiocy really is astounding...




You think healthcare and education should only be for the rich?

And yes, I do adore communism.  Well, Marxism.  I'm also an anarchist.  But I'm more than willing to use the government to reappropriate all the money that's been stolen from the middle class over the last 60 years.

As far as Cuba.  Cuba's been fucked over by US Imperialism since at least Kennedy.  Pull your head out of your ass and quit listening to the propaganda.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22499486 - 11/09/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

As far as Cuba.  Cuba's been fucked over by US Imperialism since at least Kennedy.  Pull your head out of your ass and quit listening to the propaganda.




BS, the only country they didn't trade with was us, every other country in the world was free to engage in as much commerce with them as they wanted to, if communism was so fucking great, they would be a very rich and prosperous country right now. Nope, their people fled that shithole every chance they got

Cuba embraced every leftist idea, free healthcare, education, kept corporations out or kept them small, it failed, miserably. It boggles my mind so many see the results of exactly what they propose and still support it


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22499496 - 11/09/15 09:07 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You think healthcare and education should only be for the rich?




Did I say that? S T R A W M A N


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22499554 - 11/09/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

You think healthcare and education should only be for the rich?




Did I say that? S T R A W M A N




So that's not your position?

Please explain then how you think we should determine who gets healthcare and education.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22499563 - 11/09/15 09:24 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

As far as Cuba.  Cuba's been fucked over by US Imperialism since at least Kennedy.  Pull your head out of your ass and quit listening to the propaganda.




BS, the only country they didn't trade with was us, every other country in the world was free to engage in as much commerce with them as they wanted to, if communism was so fucking great, they would be a very rich and prosperous country right now. Nope, their people fled that shithole every chance they got

Cuba embraced every leftist idea, free healthcare, education, kept corporations out or kept them small, it failed, miserably. It boggles my mind so many see the results of exactly what they propose and still support it




That's an actual strawman by the way.

I never mentioned other countries.  I'm sorry you fail to see how a trade embargo with your nearest neighbor and one of the world's only super powers can cripple an economy.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22499666 - 11/09/15 09:51 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

As far as Cuba.  Cuba's been fucked over by US Imperialism since at least Kennedy.  Pull your head out of your ass and quit listening to the propaganda.




BS, the only country they didn't trade with was us, every other country in the world was free to engage in as much commerce with them as they wanted to, if communism was so fucking great, they would be a very rich and prosperous country right now. Nope, their people fled that shithole every chance they got

Cuba embraced every leftist idea, free healthcare, education, kept corporations out or kept them small, it failed, miserably. It boggles my mind so many see the results of exactly what they propose and still support it




That's an actual strawman by the way.

I never mentioned other countries.  I'm sorry you fail to see how a trade embargo with your nearest neighbor and one of the world's only super powers can cripple an economy.




Nonsense, they had the whole carribean, and all of central and South America as close as we are.

I'm not sure why you can't admit it's their policies that failed them. Blaming the US for some other countries problems is childish at best


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22499732 - 11/09/15 10:11 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Prior to Castro Cuba's economy was much like Puerto Rico's.  Of the two I'd say Cuba is doing way fucking better.

And this is inspite of us trying to bully them.

Imagine what communism might look like if U.S. capitalists weren't so threatened by it.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22499956 - 11/09/15 11:18 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

You think healthcare and education should only be for the rich?




Did I say that? S T R A W M A N




So that's not your position?

Please explain then how you think we should determine who gets healthcare and education.




--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22499976 - 11/09/15 11:22 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Prior to Castro Cuba's economy was much like Puerto Rico's.  Of the two I'd say Cuba is doing way fucking better.

And this is inspite of us trying to bully them.

Imagine what communism might look like if U.S. capitalists weren't so threatened by it.




USSR? No, they collapsed, lol. How about North Korea? Venezuela?

Please show me ONE successful communist country


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22500060 - 11/09/15 11:44 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

You use a very loose definition of communism.  Which was my original point.  Quit believing the capitalist propaganda.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #22500098 - 11/09/15 11:53 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Machiavelliavore said:
I agree with you on a good bit of what you're saying, but in my opinion that republican party has almost nothing to do with anything you said.

Legislated Wealth Redistribution and Big Govt.:  In Principle, I'm against this.  But Republicans loooove the military.  They'll throw even more money at them when we should be cutting our military spending.  What are the real threats.  China is going to launch an all out offensive against us?  Who's gonna buy their plastic crap, repay our debt, and pay them to throw away that same plastic crap in the middle of the pacific ocean if they do that?  Republicans just shift spending from "public works projects" to corporate interest tax cuts/nobid contracts and charity for the military industrial complex (not that democrats don't do some of that too.)  So given THAT choice, I would rather see social services for which there is benefit.  Also republicans seem to love running a deficit for some reason.

Protectionism:  It is my firm belief that if we as Americans want to maintain a western standard of living, we need jobs in our country, which aren't created by the govt giving people jobs, but are created by removing unfair competition based on human rights exploitation and poor environmental standards.  Alexander Hamilton did it at the start of the country so the united states could become industrially competitive with britain, and it worked.  We don't make shit.  You can say this could be accomplished by individuals valuing American goods, but I feel that's ignorant of human nature.

Walmart and its ilk exemplify proverbial sociopaths that offer cookies to the fat man trying to lose weight, heroin to the addict trying to quit.

American exceptionalism is dead.  The majority of the country is a gaggle of mediocre ingrates who are middlemen in a vast network for the distribution of chinese crap and industrially farmed corn.  Yeah, we got biotech, some science, bigAG, computer hardware development, software development, entertainment, and military industrial.  Can't be more than 5% of the US population involved in those actually creating things that previously didn't exist, rather than middle-manning or providing services.  Just guessing.




Campaign Reform/Citizens United:  As long as corporations buy the government, we don't have much of a real choice anyway, so I'll pretty much vote for anyone that's trying to get rid of this legalized bribery.  It would be hard enough to fucking control if it wasn't legal.  This might actually allow more parties, ones that might actually represent our beliefs, to have a chance.

Separation of Church and State:  Legislating all this Christian shit...  No thanks, Democrats win hands down.

Legalizing Drugs:  And ending a racially biased and useless exercise in denial of civil rights?  Talk about fucking expenditures there.  some democrats and Rand.

Nuclear Power:  The most environmentally friendly and practical power solution.  Most democrats have it wrong here, but republicans are so in the pocket of big oil (how republicans feel about keystone xl :blowme:)  Republicans friendzone nuclear power.


Immigration:  Apparently hardly any mexicans are even immigrating here any more, more are going back to mexico, so I don't see protecting the border as an issue.  Waltzing across the border to poop babies out into our welfare system does piss me off though, so good on texas for that shit.

Gun Control:  I'm not in favor of a lot of gun control, but fuck, at least keep a registry of gun owners, do background checks, and perhaps have a waiting period on assault weapons?  Bill Maher has this one nailed even though I don't agree with his stance, "Republicans LOOOOOVE guns, and Democrats love them just a little bit less."  Owning a gun is an important right to me, owning a 50cal machine gun and 500 AR-15's with 100 drum mags isn't.


Militarized Police:  Democrats tend to be more in favor of reforming the right hand of dictatorship.  Republicans also don't seem to give a shit that police tend to shoot a lot of black people.

Cuba:  Why not trade with them, their youth aren't working in factories getting poisoned by benzene like Chinese iPhone factories.

Environment:  Republicans think the environment will attend to itself, or jesus will fix it???

Oh yeah, and if you're pissed about Obama leaving our military overseas, it wouldn't surprise me if a Republican invaded Iran.  They were all up in arms over the Iran deal.  I'm half-Israeli, and I think it was smart to severely limit their nuclear capacity rather than invade them, especially when Iran is starting to work more with western countries against ISIS.




The republican party has devolved into a bunch of whiny children who won't do anything that makes sense if democrats are in favor of it.  Believing Jesus rode around on a dinosaur in North America is more acceptable than two men adopting a child to these people.

Rand is the only one of them I'd vote for that I'm aware of and he's a spitwad on the surface of mars atm.

Honestly I haven't even formed opinions on which way I lean on a lot of governmental issues, because my vote won't reflect them regardless.  At this point, I'll take ANY system working well over one system I slightly favor working like shit.



Good post!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroom Detective
Stranger
Registered: 07/02/14
Posts: 1,699
Re: An open letter to all liberals... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22502498 - 11/09/15 08:21 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EXCLUSIVE—Mark Levin on ‘Ameritopia:’ ‘We Now Live in a Post-Constitutional Country’

By Terence P. Jeffrey | January 16, 2012 | 12:16 AM EST



In an interview with CNSNews.com about his new book—“Ameritopia: The Unmaking of America”—Mark R. Levin said he believes America has already largely become “a post-constitutional country.”

The book, released Monday, compares the Utopian and unworkable schemes laid out by political philosophers from Plato to Thomas Hobbes with the vision of natural law, God-given rights, and individual liberty that inspired the Founding Fathers when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

“Utopianism is not new,” Levin writes in “Ameritopia.” “It has been repackaged countless times—since Plato and before. It is as old as tyranny itself.  In democracies, its practitioners legislate without end.  In America, law is piled upon law in contravention and contradiction of the governing law—the Constitution.”



Levin’s verdict: Barack Obama and modern American liberals are firmly in the Utopian camp—pursuing a vision fundamentally at odds with limited government and human freedom.




“I believe to a great extent we now live in a post-constitutional country, where much of the Constitution is ignored or evaded,” Levin told CNSNews.com.

“What I want the readers to understand, what I want the public to understand is, this is not new and it’s going to destroy us,” said Levin. “It’s going to destroy us because it is an attack on the individual. It is an attack on the nature of human beings.”


Mark Levin: How are you, brother?

Terry Jeffrey: I am doing great. Thanks for doing this. You know, each of your first three bestsellers were very different books. "Men in Black" talked about how the Supreme Court was ignoring or distorting the Constitution. "Rescuing Sprite" was a personal story about a dog you rescued, and "Liberty and Tyranny" talked about the way liberals in America today are threatening our freedom. This book is more a look at the comparison of the pathological political philosophy of the left, of those who might impose a tyrannical government, and the political philosophy that animated the Founding Fathers. Why did you write this book?

Levin: Well, because "Liberty and Tyranny" laid out, in my view, the basics between conservatism and non-conservatism. And I try to keep these books under 300 pages, so people will actually read them, and so they're interesting, and so perhaps they may even influence somebody. And then I got to thinking: Well, it's not enough just to talk about the Founding Fathers. Where did the Founding Fathers get these ideas from? You know, they didn't just wake up one day and think about individual sovereignty and private property rights and natural law and God-given inalienable rights and so forth. So, I decided to dig.

Now, I had a sense for this, obviously. But I decided to dig further as well as address this concern that all believers in the American system have always had. I mean, including the greats--including Abraham Lincoln, and Joseph Story, and Ronald Reagan--which was this concern that tyranny threatens democracy. But what is this tyranny?

Other than just describing it at surface level, who's involved in it, where does this come from? And, frankly, I needed to figure that out for myself. So, that's why I decided to really dig deep and I think I found the answer, at least satisfying to me, which are these phony utopian notions of how man needs to be controlled and these model societies--going back probably before Plato--but I had to pick certain philosophers, who came up with certain model utopian ideas, to give examples of totalitarian regimes, which really brilliant men came up with, and to warn people today that we're headed on the same glide path.

Jeffrey: You started out with Plato's Republic, and you talk about Thomas More and you talked about Hobbes and you end up talking about Karl Marx.

You point out in the book that even Plato in creating this utopia he had in mind, admitted that it wouldn't work, that it basically was in contradiction to even what he understood about human nature. But when you finally get around to Marx and Engels, there you have true believers. And as I was reading your book--and it had been a while since I looked at The Communist Manifesto--I'm thinking: Well, am I reading the Democratic Party platform here or am I reading The Communist Manifesto? You talk about The Communist Manifesto talked about the abolition of the family, talked about putting all children in public schools as a means of indoctrination, centralization of credit in the hands of the state, a heavy and progressive income tax, an abolition of the right of inheritance, and everything a struggle between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. Everything victims and the victimized, victimizers. Compare modern liberals in America today—

Levin: It’s upsetting isn’t it?

Jeffrey: --to this vision that Marx and Engels had in The Communist Manifesto?

Levin: Well, you know it’s interesting. When Obama was running for office and saying these things--sort of saying them and sometimes accidentally blurting them out--I would say on my radio show he is speaking Marx here. This whole phony, historic material dialectic that he created of the two classes constantly fighting each other--the bourgeoisie and the proletariat--in other words, the people with money and land and so forth, the capitalists today, and the workers, the laborers, was phony from day one. And yet it attracted all the miscreants and the malcontents, anybody who’s unhappy with existing society and so forth. And you can hear it in Obama today with the class warfare propaganda.

Jeffrey: Right--and Karl Marx really believed this though, right?

Levin: Well, Karl Marx really believed it and Engels really believed it, and obviously their followers, Lenin and Trotsky and Mao and the others really believed it. But the problem is this--and what I try to get into in the book is--whether it is radical egalitarianism, like More in Utopia, whether it is this two classes fighting with each other, this phony straw man argument that Marx and Engels come up with, whether it’s Plato’s Republic with this so-called ideal city where they decide who’s going to be what where and who’s going to do what where, or whether it’s Hobbes’s all powerful sovereignty, top-down authoritarian-type government--in our own country, we are abandoning constitutional republicanism.

I believe to a great extent we now live in a post-constitutional country, where much of the Constitution is ignored or evaded. And the utopians today, these statists who are promoting bigger, centralized, concentrated government, more power to them. It’s not that they’re sitting there saying I’m going to take from Plato and Hobbes and everyone, but they are taking from Plato and Hobbes. And what I want the readers to understand, what I want the public to understand is, this is not new and it’s going to destroy us. It’s going to destroy us because it is an attack on the individual. It is an attack on the nature of human beings. It is an attack on the civil society.

Jeffrey: Right, in your book, as I understand it, when you talk about Marx and Engels and The Communist Manifesto, they’re talking about a radical transformation of society—

Levin: Correct.

Jeffrey: --where they’re changing everything from the structure of the family, to how kids are taught from the time they’re born, there’s no private property, and to affect that transformation they have to trample individual liberty. It’s impossible to do it.


Levin: All of these societies are fantasies. They’re nightmares, but they’re fantasies. They’re somebody’s fantasy. They’re a philosopher’s fantasy. They’re people in power, it’s their fantasy. And what they all have in common is it is an attack on the nature of man, it is an attack on individual sovereignty, it is an attack on morality, it’s an attack on the civil society. And what I try to show in this book is this is a very, very serious mindset and it’s not the American mindset, and you can hear it in leftist politicians today--the way they talk, what they promote. And then I contrast with what I call Americanism, when we get to John Locke.

You see, John Locke was different than all those we just mentioned because the others were trying to figure out how to create this so-called perfect or more perfect society and impose it on people. John Locke said, ‘You know, what I want to try and figure out is what makes man tick? How does his mind work? How does he gather knowledge? Where does morality come from? Where do these things come from?’ You notice the difference? One makes assumptions: Humans need to be controlled, individuals acting in their own regard is problematic and should be shunned. Whereas Locke said: No, no, no, no. We should embrace individuality, that’s the nature of man.

Jeffrey: Mark, in “Ameritopia” you write, let me quote you back to yourself, you say of John Locke, “Early in the Second Treatise of Government, Locke introduces the notion that of an individual’s God-given and inalienable rights, in which all individuals are entitled and which provide the moral condition of a civil society.” And you quote from Locke, “The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it, which obliges everyone in reason which is that law teaches all mankind, who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions. For men, being all the workmanship of one omnipotent and infinitely wise Maker, all the servants of one’s sovereign master, sent into this world by His order, and about His business, they are His property whose workmanship they are made to last during His, not one another’s pleasure.”

What kind of impact did this kind of thinking have on the Founding Fathers, for our country?

Levin: John Locke was the most frequently referred to and read of all the philosophers during the Revolutionary and pre-Revolutionary period. His impact on Thomas Jefferson was enormous. You can hear that as the basis of the Declaration of Independence right there. His impact on George Mason, with the Virginia Declaration of Rights--which was written about five or six weeks before the Declaration of Independence which was also used to influence the Declaration of Independence--was enormous. So Locke’s influence, his discussion about man, man’s knowledge, man’s nature, natural law, was enormous. And yet, how often is Locke taught in high school and college, even today?

Jeffrey: Probably never.

Levin: Probably never, or very quickly, and yet Marx is taught all the time--

Jeffrey: Even if not overtly.

Levin: If not overtly. Yeah, we live it. But it is crucial to understand the foundations of our society. And, as I say, the Founding Fathers didn’t just come up with this stuff.

Jeffrey: Locke talks about, obviously, a law of nature and what nature is and that’s very much in the Declaration of Independence, as you say. With Marx and these other utopians you are talking about, if I understand you correctly, they don’t like the natural order, they don’t like the way people really are, they don’t like the natural society that evolves from the free choices of people, so they have to trample on individual liberty in order to try and reframe things--

Levin: That’s right.

Jeffrey: --and restructure society according to their artificial model.

Levin: Well these are the masterminds. They’re masterminds who decide this is what society ought to look like. You can hear our mastermind today, Barack Obama. Who should earn how much?

Let me tell you a couple of facts of life. There will always be income inequality and there’s not a damn thing man can do about it. Now, he’ll try. The masterminds will try, and in trying we’ll have coercion and misery and poverty because it is destructive of human nature. What Locke meant by equality, what the Founders meant by equality in the Declaration, was not conformity, was not uniformity, was not outcomes. What they meant by equality is there are certain God-given rights that every human being upon birth has. And those God-given rights are the right to live, the right to live freely, and the right to pursue your interests. In other words, the right to be unmolested by other people and unmolested by your government. This is the essential part of our founding, and if you listen to Obama today, they never talk about this. It’s always about our collective interests and our collective desires and so forth.

Jeffrey: And in Locke’s and in the Founding Fathers’ vision, the duty and purpose of government itself is to protect these rights.

Levin: And, in fact, when we get to the Constitution the purpose of the Constitution is to protect and preserve the society that they fought a revolution to protect against outside enemies. The purpose of the Constitution is to protect that society. It’s to protect individual sovereignty. It’s to protect all these things they fought for. So, when you have a president of the United Sates who says I want to fundamentally transform America, he is fundamentally rejecting the entire basis for the American system.

Jeffrey: In the book you also quote a couple of the Federalist Papers written by James Madison where he’s talking about really the point of the Constitution is to put up enough government to protect people’s rights but then limit government so it doesn’t trample on people’s rights.

Levin: Right. That’s the entire point. Locke talks about it and later, even more, Charles de Montesquieu. Now, Charles de Montesquieu had a longer name than that, baron and all the rest of it depending on what time of his life you pick. But people don’t realize--and I didn’t realize the full extent of Montesquieu’s influence on the Framers of the Constitution--and yet if you really think about it, if you read the Federalist Papers, he’s mentioned several times in the Federalist Papers. So, I would ask the people watching right now: Were you taught about Montesquieu in school? Do you know much about Montesquieu? I know I wasn’t taught a lot about Montesquieu and I studied the Federalist Papers left and right. So, I dug in.

And in his Spirit of Laws, which in translation can be anywhere from 850 to a 1,000 pages in length, I dug in for a long time. This man was another genius. He’s the one who didn’t come up with the concept but crystallized the concept of three separate branches of government, one working against the other. You know, he feared and Locke feared and the Founders feared all the same thing: centralized concentrated power, because they all knew from history and experience that’s the basis for tyranny and totalitarianism. And Montesquieu was an absolute genius in explaining that.

Jeffrey: Mark, in “Ameritopia” you do quote John Locke talking about how representative government itself, not just monarchy, can be a threat to individual liberty--

Levin: Right.

Jeffrey: …and the natural rights of the people. You look at things that are happening in American government today. You have a House of Representatives that is occasionally supine in resisting the Executive Branch, or a Congress in general, that is. You have a president who just a week ago appointed a director to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, three members to the National Labor Relations Board, theoretically as a recess appointment, but under the plain terms of the Constitution the Congress was not in recess. Do we see an erosion in America today of the separation of powers, the systems of checks and balances that Montesquieu envisioned?

Levin: Yes, this erosion has been going on for about a hundred years. It’s at a much faster pace right now and there’s a reason for this, because you can’t have constitutionalism and utopianism. In other words, the purpose of the Constitution is to have a limited central government where the sovereignty remains with the individual and the people and the states. The purpose of utopianism is the opposite of all that. It’s a relative handful of masterminds and their massive army of bureaucrats and their experts advising them from the colleges and so forth on how to run society.

You cannot have an EPA and a Constitution at the same time doing what this EPA is doing. You cannot have an NLRB deciding who gets to work where, how, and when, and at the same time follow the Constitution. You cannot have a tax code that serves basically the purpose of redistributing wealth, which is one of the things that Marx was pushing for so strongly, and at the same time be arguing about limited government and constitutionalism.

The utopians reject history. Everything begins today. The models they want to put in place begin today. So why anybody thinks they’re going to respect the Constitution when they don’t respect the rest of history is beyond me. And what you see with Obama is the playing out of this soft tyranny--as I called it in Liberty and Tyranny--as de Tocqueville called it. What you see is the playing out of increasing coercion, increasing--It’s even more than that: There is an attack on the American mindset, on the American psychology, and it’s been going on a long time. But you can hear it in his speeches now, where he is telling the American people you have a right, not to individual liberty, but you have a right to expect more from government, you have a right to take something from somebody else that doesn’t belong to you. This is a battle of ideas.

Jeffrey: I believe Obama has even argued that America was not a great country until we saw the aggrandizement of government that came with the New Deal and the Great Society

Levin: Let’s stop you there. Listen to those names. The New Deal and the Great Society. Listen to those utopian-type names. They are all intended to change the civil society. In other words, these are all different models and yet they have all these common threads that are intended to impose on the people--against their will--but impose on the people some kind of a utopian fantasy, which by the way the utopians can’t actually define, they just keep pressing for it.

Jeffrey: I think in “Ameritopia” you quote de Tocqueville saying that American representative government will last so long as the legislators don’t figure out they can bribe the people with their own money.

Levin: But, you know, he’s not the only one to say that. Franklin at the Constitutional Convention and I paraphrase, he was too ill to get up and speak and he gave a speech to his fellow delegate from Pennsylvania, Wilson, and he read it. And what he essentially said was: Look, if the American people want despotism, they’re going to get despotism. Because the truth is the only thing that stands between tyranny and what we have today--a sort of a softer--is us. We’re going to rely on the same institutions that are out a whack, the same system that has basically been hijacked by these folks, to return our constitutionalism and our liberty to us? I don’t think that’s going work which creates the problem is exactly what do we do about all this?

Jeffrey: From my view, Mark, if you look at the history of the aggrandizement of American government using your model here, it really starts to accelerate in the 1930’s under FDR--

Levin: Right.

Jeffrey: --with the creation of a federal welfare state, breeding of dependence among the American people, accelerates more in the 1960s under LBJ with the increase of the welfare state. George Bush didn’t help us out--

Levin: No he didn’t

Jeffrey: --when he created the Medicare prescription drug plan. But there seems to be a model where Democrats come into power they want to expand the welfare state and the dependency of the American people, reduce individual liberty, move away from this vision that Locke and Thomas Jefferson had. When Republicans follow them into power, what we get is people who say: Hey, we’re going manage this a little better. We’re going do this a little better. We’re going to make it a little bit cheaper, a little more efficient. They don’t say we’re going to roll it back and get rid of it.

Levin: No

Jeffrey: And do you believe we’re reaching an endgame here where we either have to choose to just go to the financial and freedom disaster of the welfare state or really roll the federal government back and move back to a free society?

Levin: Well, the latter. And the question for me today is—I talk about this post-constitutional country we are in, and the name of the book is “Ameritopia,” because I believe we live today not in the American republic, you know, founded by our forefathers, we live in an “Ameritopia.” And I’ll give you some examples, as I do in one of the chapters, of the book. Look around in your house. You can’t even decide what light bulb to put in your house or showerhead or toilet. Open your medicine cabinet. Everything in there is regulated. Look at your electronics. Every single electronic device you have has some government stamp of approval. Washing machines, dryers, toasters, the gypsum board that is used to build your home, the roofing tile that is on your house, whether you can actually build a house on a particular piece of property that you own, all of this is regulated and managed by government.

So you have to ask yourself: How did we exist before all this? How did we manage to get along before all this? And I’m just starting. If we take the automobile: Automobiles are now designed in Washington D.C., pretty much. If you look at even the labor market: The labor market is basically a response to all these government laws, labor laws and other laws that are in place. Go down this hallway here to the vending machine. The vending machine is now regulated by the Department of Agriculture and other parts of the government on what can be said and cannot be said about the stuff that’s in the vending machine.

Jeffrey: To sell somebody a candy bar.

Levin: Okay. Now let me ask you this. Is this a constitutional republic? Is this a liberal federal--What is it? It’s an “Ameritopia.” Let me tell you something. The problem with “Ameritopia,” or any utopia, is that it doesn’t end well--unless the people do something about it, because there is no end to it. Karl Popper talked about this. Karl Popper said there’s piecemeal utopianism, piecemeal social engineering. He came up with that phrase “social engineering” and he was quite right. The fanatics-- which is what Obama and the Democratic Party have become, fanatical utopians--there is no end to what they want to do. There is no end to the spending, the taxes and the regulating. How do we know when we’ve reached this fantasy? How do we know that we achieved whatever it is we are supposed to achieve? Where are the designs? Where is this written? There are no designs and it isn’t written. The one thing we know for sure is that the circle of liberty for the individual gets tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter.

Jeffrey: Mark, before 2010 election, there was the emergence of the Tea Party movement, which seemed to represent the real spirit on the part of the American people to roll the government back and start us in the other direction. It resulted in the election of a Republican-controlled House of Representatives. It seems like maybe the steam’s gone out of that since the 2010 election. Do you think there is an actual constituency in the country that real political leaders in the practical world can put together to elect a government that will actually head us back in the right direction?

Levin: I don’t know the steam’s gone out yet. I think in many respects the Tea Party is more sophisticated. I think they are organized and so forth. The problem is if our political system is not responsive to tens of millions of people who rise up, who vote, who after the election expect significant change in the right direction, the reestablishment, or the beginning of the reestablishment, of constitutional government and limits on the central government, and when the party they get involved in doesn’t do that, in fact rejects them, in fact in many ways mocks them, I’m very concerned about this.

Jeffrey: Then what do they do?

Levin: Well, I’m concerned about it because if there are not civil legitimate ways to effect political change, things can get ugly. And, by the way, from the left or the right. So part of the problem with this whole utopianism is it balkanizes people, it appeals to the lowest common denominator--in other words it responds to malcontents and miscreants and so forth. Successful people, industrious people, Tea Party people, are the targets of their attack, the targets of their laws and their spending decisions, and so a society begins to unravel and the civil society begins to unravel. I say at the end of the book, I don’t know where this is going to go. And I am very, very worried about where this is going.

Jeffrey: In this campaign there has been some candidates who have gone out and expressly appealed to the founding documents, particularly the Declaration of Independence, and said: You know, if Americans can unite around anything, it’s this idea you talked about in the book: that there is a natural law, there is a God, He’s created this order, we can create a civil society based on that that’s free, and they’re basically putting their faith in the idea that the American people will rally around that idea. Do you believe that idea still has the currency to be the core theme of a political campaign?

Levin: Well, I hope so, because if it doesn’t we’re done, aren’t we? Because that means that enough people in this country have been conquered or have surrendered their free will, and their independence and their sovereignty to a utopian design promoted by temporary politicians that will be their undoing. And when you go back to the beginning of the book, I say what I want to examine here is what kind of force lures millions of millions of people and destroys them. And that’s this utopianism. So we have a president and others who talk about how they are going to—and notice also he doesn’t want to run on his record because we know this stuff can’t work. It’s impracticable. It’s impossible. You’re not going to have a healthcare system that provides quality healthcare for everybody under cost, cuts the deficit, and it’s available whenever you need it. That’s a bold-faced lie.

Jeffrey: --without rationing.

Levin: Without all kinds of dislocations and so forth.

Jeffrey: It’s a utopian scheme.

Levin: It’s the scheme. So what do they do? They talk about what they’re going to do five years from now, or the next term, or ten years from now, or thirty years from now. And Popper talked about this. They come up with these grandiose schemes and they want you to keep looking at the end of the rainbow, not the rainbow, because they can’t actually construct the rainbow. But at the end of the rainbow there’s this paradise. And all you have to do is surrender more of your liberty, and more of your private property rights, and follow the Pied Piper over the cliff, and one day we’ll all get there.

Jeffrey: On a few occasions Mark, when President Obama has alluded to the Declaration of Independence, he has very cleverly edited it--dropped out the Creator, nowhere our rights came from. Do you believe that Obama’s fundamental vision--with his talk about class war and victims and victimizers, and the way he frames the political debate--that his fundamental vision is basically Marxist, is basically similar to the sort of vision that Karl Marx and Engels were laying out?

Levin: By the way, he’s not the first one to abuse the Declaration this way. FDR used to do it all the time. No, he didn’t take God out, but he talked about rights as privileges. And, also, the man FDR relied on for his Social Security program, Seager, Seager went on and on and was very outspoken and direct about it: We need to attack this notion in America that’s very deep about individualism; we’ve got to change that to collectivism. And FDR picked up on that.

Look, I’ve said that Obama is a Marxist. Now, there’s 50 different types of Marxists, but it really doesn’t matter if I call him Marxist or not. If people are more comfortable, call him a utopian, because that’s exactly what he is. Call him a statist, call him whatever you want. What I do know is when a man runs for office and he says repeatedly that he wants to fundamentally transform America, I know two things: Number one the Constitution does not empower the president to fundamentally transform America. It gives him certain responsibilities. That’s what he gets to do, that and nothing more. Fundamentally transforming America is unconstitutional on its face. Number two, fundamentally transforming America, as I’ve said before, means you must hate America. Why would you want to fundamentally transform something that you love? So, he doesn’t like the Constitution because the Constitution stands in the way of these people, the leftists. The Declaration of Independence is rejected.

Woodrow Wilson, in a speech he gave in the early 1900s, before he ascended to the presidency, he dismisses the Declaration of Independence. FDR dismisses the Constitution of the United States. They have to. They have to destroy the existing society and traditions to impose on us this abstraction that they’ve created. This dogma, this religion, which we’re all compelled to follow even though it results in our own demise.

Jeffrey: Which can never be achieved.

Levin: It can’t be achieved. The only thing that can be achieved is the destruction of the individual.

Jeffrey: Mark Levin, author of “Ameritopia.” Thank you very much.

Levin: My pleasure, God bless.




Link to book:  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1439173249/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=mrac-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1439173249


Edited by Shroom Detective (11/09/15 08:26 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Open letter to the ACLU and it's affiliates castaway 1,163 4 02/02/04 10:30 AM
by Baby_Hitler
* open letter to Bush from Sean Penn frogsheath 1,328 16 11/03/02 12:55 AM
by mjshroomer
* An Open Letter to the Corporations of America PsiloKitten 1,719 17 10/30/03 03:53 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* An Open Letter to America's Prosecutors Xibalba 746 10 02/11/03 10:52 AM
by MushyMay
* NORML's response to open letter sent by ONDCP... socratesmind 404 2 01/16/03 12:57 AM
by Learyfan
* Liberalism
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
RandalFlagg 5,380 88 12/03/02 03:13 PM
by Xlea321
* The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
ThorA 5,531 101 01/28/03 08:14 PM
by Phred
* Ann cuntler attacks on liberals... fiction ?
( 1 2 3 all )
MushMushi 4,388 56 03/17/17 06:09 PM
by Luddite

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
2,842 topic views. 6 members, 5 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.061 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 14 queries.