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Invisibleeatyualive
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Substrate as Casing * 1
    #22445600 - 10/28/15 04:17 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

:chief:SUBSTRATE AS CASING:chief:





Brought to you by THE TRIBE

Over the last 2 years I have been messing around with this method.
These trial tests are experimenting with
Fahsters old idea about layered substrates and using
the leftover substrate as a casing.
Fahtster's Substrate as Casing


The method has been tweaked slightly. The substrate is not layered but spawn is mixed in thoroughly. Only 1-3 quarts of spawn are used as a top dressing with the substrate as casing over it.

Observations: This method has allowed harvest fruit from spawning in 12-13 days average. As the substrate and casing colonize at the same time, the speed is extremely fast. The pinsets are always extremely dense with this method. Several different casing depths have been tried, anywhere from 1/4", 1/3", 1/2". Trials in this lab find a thinner 1/4" casing depth causes smaller fruits and lower yield. When the casing is deeper than 1/4" the fruits increase in size and yield is normal.

For all comparisons, a 9-11 quart volume of varying substrates were used.
Spawn varied between 5-7 quarts of spawn per tub trying to narrow down the best results. So far speed results are positive. This helps buy a 3-5 days less time from spawn to fruit. However, yield seems to be slightly lowered if using 1/4" sub case depth. The best results so far are using a slightly thicker substrate casing layer at the top of 1/3". This may lower colonization speed by a day or two.

You can observe the results below. All clones used in this trial have been tested on cased and non cased substrates showing high yield and performance for months of consistent grows. The genetics tested all come from the same masters. All masters were propagated with inner stem clone tissue to agar, liquid inoculated, g2ged. The tubs were all emptied after 3 good flushes without contamination to make room for new bulk grows.

In all cases, the majority of the spawn was mixed in evenly with the substrate and then the top layer of spawn was placed over that mix illustrated below.

Tested Clones:
The pf clone tested on non cased substrates yielded 6oz dry average on a 4 quart spawn/10 quart substrate volume 66 quart tub. The Thai Lipa Yai clone tested yielding at minimum 6-9oz dry average on first flush with 5-8 quarts spawn to 10 quarts volume substrate. Cased substrates on both clones yielded similar results. The thai highest yield to date was 12oz dry first flush with 8 quarts of spawn and a 4" sub depth.

Basic Procedure: This varies dependent on how many Quarts of spawn were used per tub.
1) 5 quarts spawn total. 1 quart top layer 4 quarts sub mix.(1/4" casing depth)
2) 6 quarts spawn total. 3 quart top layer 3 quart sub mix. 
3) 7 quarts spawn total. 3 quart top layer 4 quarts sub mix.
4) 5 quarts spawn total. 2 quart top layer 3 quart sub mix.(1/3" casing depth)

Expanded the coir with hot water.

Dumped in the dry verm and mixed it all up. Then poured the gypsum(mixed with 4 cups of that warm water) on top of the verm/coir mix. I then mixed it all up nice an evenly with gloves on.

10 quarts of substrate is placed in each oven tin with foil over them. 4 of these tins fit in one oven. the tins were cooked for 2 hours after the inner core temp was brought to 170.

Once cool, the turkey tin full of substrate was flipped upside down into the pre lined tub.

(This is where the spawn ratio varies depending on quart number used)

  • For tubs with 6 quart spawn,  4 quarts were mixed in with the substrate. 1 quart as a top layer, then put about 1 quart of leftover substrate over that top layer.

  • With tubs that had 6 quarts of spawn, 3 quarts were mixed in the sub, 3 quarts as a top layer.

  • Tubs with 7 quarts had 4 quarts mixed in with the sub and 3 quarts as a top layer. The thinner 1/4" casing layer using this method ends up producing smaller fruits.  1/3" depth casing was also attempted.


 

Please feel free to post any trials you may have involving the substrate as casing method. Any variation is welcome. I also don't mind if you post the layering method if you so happen to use it. I don't use that method myself, but if you have any trials to post go ahead.
coming soon.

Below you will see a 10 tub trial from the tested clones.


I felt this was relevant to finally post since its similar to this idea shown in a thread by azur.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22445599#22445599


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Edited by eatyualive (10/28/15 04:29 PM)


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: eatyualive]
    #22445628 - 10/28/15 04:24 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

PF AMAZON #1:
LAYER CASED SUBSTRATE
 
  • 4 quart mixed, 1 quart layer
  • 1/4" sub casing depth


Tub 3:

2nd Flush:


Tub 4:

2nd flush:


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: eatyualive]
    #22445631 - 10/28/15 04:24 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

PF AMAZON TRIAL #2:
LAYER CASED SUBSTRATE

  • 4 Quart Spawned, 1 Quart Layered
  • 1/4" Sub Casing Depth


Tub 5:


2nd Flush:



Tub 6:




2nd Flush:


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: eatyualive]
    #22445633 - 10/28/15 04:25 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

THAI LIP YAI TRIAL #3:
LAYER CASED SUBSTRATE


4 Tubs


  • 4 quarts spawned/ 1 quart layered
  • 1/4" sub casing depth


1st Flush



2ND Flush






TLY 4: Top Layer Spawn Cased: 5 Quarts Spawn: 10 Quarts Substrate:
1st Flush

2nd Flush:


TLY 5: Top Layer Spawn Cased: 5 Quarts Spawn: 10 Quarts Substrate:
1st Flush

2nd Flush:


TLY 6: Top Layer Spawn Cased: 5 Quarts Spawn: 10 Quarts Substrate:
1st Flush

2nd Flush:


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: eatyualive]
    #22445637 - 10/28/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

PF AMAZON 1: Layer cased: 5 Quarts Grain Spawn 10 Quarts Substrate: coir/verm/strawnet/supercake/gypsum

  • 4 Quarts Spawned, 1 Quart Layer
  • 1/4" Sub Casing Depth





PF AMAZON 2: Layer cased: 5 Quarts Grain Spawn 10 Quarts Substrate: coir/verm/strawnet/supercake/gypsum



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Offlinetripdawg420
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: eatyualive]
    #22445671 - 10/28/15 04:32 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

:hatsoff:


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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: tripdawg420]
    #22445708 - 10/28/15 04:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

:popcorn:


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: Director]
    #22445999 - 10/28/15 06:08 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Great stuff eat! Substrate as casing has been my methodology for some time now. Probably 80% of my grows follow some variation of this tho my preference is now well established. It was also developed with much input from fahtster, he had some great ideas and was great to bounce ideas off of, too bad he ain't growing these days.

At any rate I may post a more detailed description of what I like to do and maybe some older pics that I used the method with.


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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22447647 - 10/29/15 02:17 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Awesome stuff, Eats!  Glad to see its still alive and kicking in some form or another :smile:. I wish I could grow too, but y'all seem to have a handle on things.. Now I just live vicariously through you guys.  Carry on! :popcorn:

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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: fahtster]
    #22447719 - 10/29/15 03:03 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Hey, Eat, what's the approximate time between making the tubs til you pick the second flush?

Faht


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Invisibleuncle_rico
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: fahtster]
    #22447751 - 10/29/15 03:25 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

nice write-up, eats

I use a top layer of substrate over my mixed sub and spawn. 1/2".  I must with my tired out PE clone culture.

if I just mix and leave exposed grain on top, I'll get contamination on the exposed grains.

the culture is weak. PE fruiting takes forever .. often too long in my outdoor 'almost open air' conditions.

the top layer of substrate is a must for me in this case.

did I miss your explanation (rationale behind) the top dressing of spawn over the mix and just beneath the top layer of sub.?


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: uncle_rico]
    #22447966 - 10/29/15 06:38 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

but if its substrate then its not a casing layer its just more substrate that gets colonized. :shrug:

so technically there is no casing layer its just a top layer to cover exposed grains from mixing spawn/sub, cus its not doing the job of a "casing" nor is it even close to working like one.  :smirk:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11916595#11916595
its step 12 in damion5050s elementary coir tek..  :blazed:

I dont think this method should be called casing because its not what it is.

and I know 99% of you know this

but a casing does not get colonized and is supposed to be non nutritious, a thin micro climate to help hold humidity pockets to aid in the formation of primordia for better pinsets.  :shrug:

which cubensis dont need at all anyway :wow:

so can we not call this top layer a casing because I get tired of correcting people saying Im making a casing when they mean bulk substrate..  :smirk:

anywho.  nice write up n very informative :super:

:2cents:


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InvisibleFriedEggS
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: 13shrooms]
    #22448800 - 10/29/15 11:26 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

eat, you applied those top layers of substrate at time of spawn or at 100% colonization?


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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: 13shrooms] * 1
    #22448897 - 10/29/15 11:52 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

13shrooms said:
but if its substrate then its not a casing layer its just more substrate that gets colonized. :shrug:

so technically there is no casing layer its just a top layer to cover exposed grains from mixing spawn/sub, cus its not doing the job of a "casing" nor is it even close to working like one.  :smirk:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11916595#11916595
its step 12 in damion5050s elementary coir tek..  :blazed:

I dont think this method should be called casing because its not what it is.

and I know 99% of you know this

but a casing does not get colonized and is supposed to be non nutritious, a thin micro climate to help hold humidity pockets to aid in the formation of primordia for better pinsets.  :shrug:

which cubensis dont need at all anyway :wow:

so can we not call this top layer a casing because I get tired of correcting people saying Im making a casing when they mean bulk substrate..  :smirk:

anywho.  nice write up n very informative :super:

:2cents:




Here's some links to better understand my thought process about why do this at all...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19742012#19742012

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19743130#19743130

And to be fair, I wanted to dub it the "laymix" method; slightly less confusing, but it is different than simply adding a top layer of substrate to cover exposed grains.  Originally it was to add an even grain layer over mixed spawn and then a top layer of substrate.  Eat uses one quart for the grain layers here, I'd suggest two for better surface coverage.

The idea was that having that even layer of grain made any mistakes of mixing (uneven grain dispersion) null and void at the fruiting surface giving you more control over how well that surface performed.  Having those two layers (grain layer and top substrate layer TSL) knowably even, you can have a better idea of how it's going to physically colonize the fruiting surface compared to simply mixing the tub like usual... Obviously that control is going to be greatly increased if you're using a known clone/isolate versus MS because you already have an idea of the growth parameters.. Then you can make the TSL thicker or thinner based on those parameters...

I think 3/4 an inch is ideal... but I think other things can/should come into thinking when deciding how thick the top layer should be; mainly the spawn ratio... if you use more spawn then you'd probably want to use a thinner top layer (and by thinner I mean between 1/4 and a 1/2 inch).  Because ideally you want all of it to colonize all at the same time.  So if you have less spawn in your tubs, you'd want the top layer to be thicker (I wouldn't go more than an inch in that or any case... probably more like 3/4 inch) so that the top 2 or so inches of your sub doesn't start pinning before the rest of the tub therefore acting as an island substrate since full colonization is a big pinning trigger... you'd probably end up with heavy pinning, but they'd be small given it didn't fully consolidate with the rest of the substrate; giving larger fruits.

The TSL shouldn't be considered a full on casing but rather having the mechanisms of one built into it; doing away with the step of casing all together without losing the benefits it gives your fruiting surface.

This is definitely not a one size fits all method, like most methods, it can be tweaked to fit your growing style (as always, what works best for you) as Pasty and Eats have shown.

Faht


Edited by fahtster (10/29/15 11:58 AM)


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InvisibleJacobStorm
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: fahtster]
    #22448987 - 10/29/15 12:15 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Wow eat. Job well done. Amazing results thank you very much for doing/ sharing this.


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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: fahtster]
    #22450568 - 10/29/15 07:04 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fahtster said:
Hey, Eat, what's the approximate time between making the tubs til you pick the second flush?

Faht



18-21 days average. Varies on variety. Syzygy, Tex, Thai are all on the lower end.


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: FriedEgg]
    #22450577 - 10/29/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

FriedEgg said:
eat, you applied those top layers of substrate at time of spawn or at 100% colonization?



At time of spawning. But I used substrate as the casing. I've tried cvg, cvs(strawnet).


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: 13shrooms]
    #22450596 - 10/29/15 07:10 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

.
Quote:

13shrooms said:
but if its substrate then its not a casing layer its just more substrate that gets colonized. :shrug:

so technically there is no casing layer its just a top layer to cover exposed grains from mixing spawn/sub, cus its not doing the job of a "casing" nor is it even close to working like one.  :smirk:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11916595#11916595
its step 12 in damion5050s elementary coir tek..  :blazed:

I dont think this method should be called casing because its not what it is.

and I know 99% of you know this

but a casing does not get colonized and is supposed to be non nutritious, a thin micro climate to help hold humidity pockets to aid in the formation of primordia for better pinsets.  :shrug:

which cubensis dont need at all anyway :wow:

so can we not call this top layer a casing because I get tired of correcting people saying Im making a casing when they mean bulk substrate..  :smirk:

anywho.  nice write up n very informative :super:

:2cents:



Call it whatever you want. Leftover substrate top layer method ECT :lol:. I thought that was what it was called. Anyway it works like any other method. Its rather quick from spawn to fruit.


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: fahtster]
    #22450608 - 10/29/15 07:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fahtster said:
Quote:

13shrooms said:
but if its substrate then its not a casing layer its just more substrate that gets colonized. :shrug:

so technically there is no casing layer its just a top layer to cover exposed grains from mixing spawn/sub, cus its not doing the job of a "casing" nor is it even close to working like one.  :smirk:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11916595#11916595
its step 12 in damion5050s elementary coir tek..  :blazed:

I dont think this method should be called casing because its not what it is.

and I know 99% of you know this

but a casing does not get colonized and is supposed to be non nutritious, a thin micro climate to help hold humidity pockets to aid in the formation of primordia for better pinsets.  :shrug:

which cubensis dont need at all anyway :wow:

so can we not call this top layer a casing because I get tired of correcting people saying Im making a casing when they mean bulk substrate..  :smirk:

anywho.  nice write up n very informative :super:

:2cents:




Here's some links to better understand my thought process about why do this at all...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19742012#19742012

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19743130#19743130

And to be fair, I wanted to dub it the "laymix" method; slightly less confusing, but it is different than simply adding a top layer of substrate to cover exposed grains.  Originally it was to add an even grain layer over mixed spawn and then a top layer of substrate.  Eat uses one quart for the grain layers here, I'd suggest two for better surface coverage.

The idea was that having that even layer of grain made any mistakes of mixing (uneven grain dispersion) null and void at the fruiting surface giving you more control over how well that surface performed.  Having those two layers (grain layer and top substrate layer TSL) knowably even, you can have a better idea of how it's going to physically colonize the fruiting surface compared to simply mixing the tub like usual... Obviously that control is going to be greatly increased if you're using a known clone/isolate versus MS because you already have an idea of the growth parameters.. Then you can make the TSL thicker or thinner based on those parameters...

I think 3/4 an inch is ideal... but I think other things can/should come into thinking when deciding how thick the top layer should be; mainly the spawn ratio... if you use more spawn then you'd probably want to use a thinner top layer (and by thinner I mean between 1/4 and a 1/2 inch).  Because ideally you want all of it to colonize all at the same time.  So if you have less spawn in your tubs, you'd want the top layer to be thicker (I wouldn't go more than an inch in that or any case... probably more like 3/4 inch) so that the top 2 or so inches of your sub doesn't start pinning before the rest of the tub therefore acting as an island substrate since full colonization is a big pinning trigger... you'd probably end up with heavy pinning, but they'd be small given it didn't fully consolidate with the rest of the substrate; giving larger fruits.

The TSL shouldn't be considered a full on casing but rather having the mechanisms of one built into it; doing away with the step of casing all together without losing the benefits it gives your fruiting surface.

This is definitely not a one size fits all method, like most methods, it can be tweaked to fit your growing style (as always, what works best for you) as Pasty and Eats have shown.

Faht



I did several things actually. I've done up to 3 quarts as a top  "laymix". That sounds like a cool name. I can change the op.


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Re: Substrate as Casing Trials [Re: eatyualive]
    #22450644 - 10/29/15 07:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I usually use a top layer of coir to cover up exposed grains and whatnot, but I just use a dusting. Bare minimum to cover them up, and I will let the top fully colonize before either fruiting or applying a casing be it proper peat style casing or CVG


  I find if I use a thicker layer, 1/4 " or more the top stalls out or takes forever to filly colonize sometimes.

Do you fruit at full colonization of top layer or just when myc is popping up through the valleys (like when you would fruit a typical cased sub)?


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