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OfflineCosmicFool
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self driving cars and Asimov's Laws
    #22441104 - 10/27/15 05:18 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

http://www.iflscience.com/technology/should-self-driving-car-be-programmed-kill-its-passengers-greater-good-scenario

Picture the scene: You’re in a self-driving car and, after turning a corner, find that you are on course for an unavoidable collision with a group of 10 people in the road with walls on either side. Should the car swerve to the side into the wall, likely seriously injuring or killing you, its sole occupant, and saving the group? Or should it make every attempt to stop, knowing full well it will hit the group of people while keeping you safe?


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OfflineHerbologist
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: CosmicFool]
    #22441111 - 10/27/15 05:19 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Manual over ride and run them bitches over


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OfflineCosmicFool
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: Herbologist]
    #22441310 - 10/27/15 06:11 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I would think if there was enough time to recognize the situation and switch to manual
there is probably enough time for the car to not kill you


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Invisible4HO-DMT
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: CosmicFool]
    #22441372 - 10/27/15 06:26 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting scenario. It gives rise to autonomous AI. It would be kind of scary to have the technology make the decision for you.


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OfflineReposadoXochipilli
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: 4HO-DMT]
    #22442023 - 10/27/15 08:40 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

:jah: im personally not ready for automated driving unless it was in an area where all motor vehicle  were on the same deal. maybe nice for traffic jams and stuff?


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Offlineblackhawk
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: ReposadoXochipilli] * 1
    #22442162 - 10/27/15 09:02 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not driving a self-driving car. I love my car that I control. I wear the pants!


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Invisibletrekie
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: blackhawk]
    #22442201 - 10/27/15 09:08 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blackhawk said:
I'm not driving a self-driving car. I love my car that I control. I wear the pants!



:awesomenod:


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OfflineCosmicFool
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: ReposadoXochipilli]
    #22443549 - 10/28/15 07:11 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ReposadoXochipilli said:
:jah: im personally not ready for automated driving unless it was in an area where all motor vehicle  were on the same deal. maybe nice for traffic jams and stuff?




I think this will be a hurdle for sdc's
how will all cars "be on the same deal" if people are afraid to be the first to change


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OfflineCosmicFool
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: blackhawk]
    #22443551 - 10/28/15 07:12 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blackhawk said:
I'm not driving a self-driving car. I love my car that I control. I wear the pants!




I think there will always be a market for manual cars
just like there is a strong following of "classic cars"


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Offlineclock_of_omens
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: CosmicFool]
    #22443886 - 10/28/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

To answer the question, yeah it probably should. I just watched a Sam Harris interview yesterday where he was talking about cognitive dissonance in regards to highway deaths and collateral damage. 30,000 people die every year because of driving, but people don't care about that as much as other situations where far less people die. Anyway, he said that once it is proven that self driving cars bring the death toll down, one would be a moral monster if one insists on driving a manual car just for the enjoyment of driving.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: CosmicFool]
    #22443901 - 10/28/15 08:54 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicFool said:
http://www.iflscience.com/technology/should-self-driving-car-be-programmed-kill-its-passengers-greater-good-scenario

Picture the scene: You’re in a self-driving car and, after turning a corner, find that you are on course for an unavoidable collision with a group of 10 people in the road with walls on either side. Should the car swerve to the side into the wall, likely seriously injuring or killing you, its sole occupant, and saving the group? Or should it make every attempt to stop, knowing full well it will hit the group of people while keeping you safe?







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OfflineDest
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22446615 - 10/28/15 09:00 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds like some kinda wacko suicide cult to me.


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OfflineDTCharlieB
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22446691 - 10/28/15 09:15 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

CosmicFool said:
http://www.iflscience.com/technology/should-self-driving-car-be-programmed-kill-its-passengers-greater-good-scenario

Picture the scene: You’re in a self-driving car and, after turning a corner, find that you are on course for an unavoidable collision with a group of 10 people in the road with walls on either side. Should the car swerve to the side into the wall, likely seriously injuring or killing you, its sole occupant, and saving the group? Or should it make every attempt to stop, knowing full well it will hit the group of people while keeping you safe?











Haha wear the heck do you find these memes?  Do you search for them when a topic arises or do you just remember them from somewhere?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: DTCharlieB]
    #22446731 - 10/28/15 09:23 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I made that one just for this thread


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Invisibletrekie
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22448859 - 10/29/15 11:43 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

The meme generator is strong in this one


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: trekie]
    #22449126 - 10/29/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

How good do you know the laws of robotics?

The first rule by itself prevents this kind of paradoxes.


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OfflineCosmicFool
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #22449377 - 10/29/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LeningradCowboy said:
How good do you know the laws of robotics?

The first rule by itself prevents this kind of paradoxes.




1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

this is exactly why the original question was posed
moving will cause the deaths of humans and not moving will cause the deaths of humans
but even Asimov often created exceptions to the rules
showing that they are imperfect

the First Law may forbid a robot from functioning as a surgeon, as that act may cause damage to a human, however Asimov's stories eventually included robot surgeons ("The Bicentennial Man" being a notable example). When robots are sophisticated enough to weigh alternatives, a robot may be programmed to accept the necessity of inflicting damage during surgery in order to prevent the greater harm that would result if the surgery were not carried out, or was carried out by a more fallible human surgeon


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: CosmicFool]
    #22449601 - 10/29/15 03:15 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicFool said:
Quote:

LeningradCowboy said:
How good do you know the laws of robotics?

The first rule by itself prevents this kind of paradoxes.




1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.






"Through inaction, allow human being to come to harm."

What I'm saying is that robot does not allow the scenario to happen:shrug:


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OfflineCosmicFool
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #22449746 - 10/29/15 03:54 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LeningradCowboy said:
"Through inaction, allow human being to come to harm."

What I'm saying is that robot does not allow the scenario to happen:shrug:




in a perfect situation the robot would be able to identify and avoid this situation entirely
but robotics/ai is in it's infancy and a long way from perfect
if it processes the information too slow,
it's sensors are inadequate,
there is a bug/malfunction,
or unusual conditions (rain, snow, ice, tornados, etc)
than mistakes can happen

it's all a backup fail safe
the plan b

not to mention the only way a robot will obey Asimov's law
is if it's programed to


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: CosmicFool]
    #22449775 - 10/29/15 04:03 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)






1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

this is exactly why the original question was posed





So I assume we are talking about Asimov's laws of robotics, right?

If that kind of thing would enyway happen. You would be alone in the calculations against ten possible victims.
:cookiemonster:


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Edited by LeningradCowboy (10/29/15 04:04 PM)


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #22450238 - 10/29/15 05:41 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I think it'll be a gradual change. We already have assisted parallel parking, and the cameras are getting more advanced (multiangle, bird's eye view, etc.). Automated braking systems will evolve, and eventually your brakes will be engaged for you. This will get people "used" to feeling their cars automatically brake. Soon after you'll have "local" self driving spots where you might pull into McDonald's and have the ADC take over in a relatively safe, confined area. Then it'll move to highways where cars are (more or less) all doing the same thing anyway.

It'll be slow enough people won't fear it, they'll just get used to it.


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Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

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Invisible4HO-DMT
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: CosmicFool]
    #22451019 - 10/29/15 08:31 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Going off the way that capitalism works, probably the person that owns the robot would be saved rather than the 10 civilians. I mean, if the technology is sophisticated enough, then I am sure it would be programmed to protect its owner before protecting others.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: CosmicFool]
    #22742574 - 01/06/16 01:38 AM (8 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicFool said:
Quote:

LeningradCowboy said:
"Through inaction, allow human being to come to harm."

What I'm saying is that robot does not allow the scenario to happen:shrug:




in a perfect situation the robot would be able to identify and avoid this situation entirely
but robotics/ai is in it's infancy and a long way from perfect
if it processes the information too slow,
it's sensors are inadequate,
there is a bug/malfunction,
or unusual conditions (rain, snow, ice, tornados, etc)
than mistakes can happen

it's all a backup fail safe
the plan b

not to mention the only way a robot will obey Asimov's law
is if it's programed to




Just to revive this thread, Nvidia recently announced making quite large strides in terms of the AI required to handle things like this.

The intimidatingly named Drivenet, where they propose having actively learning cars on the road connected via the cloud, constantly updating each other with newly learned information and scenarios.

They have apparently released a supercomputer that companies are presently using to make self-driving cars.

90 second summary of their presentation at CES this year:



Will not link everything from their presentation, but all 9 parts can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/user/nvidia/videos

Videos 1-4/5 are focused on the recent strides made in terms of recognition and everything.

There was some really interesting accomplishments that they discussed, such as the recognition software now being at the point that in situations like snow the computer can identify and track vehicles that may not be readily visible to the human eye.
It also continually maps and records the car's position in 3d space, so it is simultaneously taking in data from all points rather than sequentially checking areas like the human visual field.

Not to say that this immediately answers the issue presented in the OP, but generally the effort seems to be to make a system robust enough to prepare for and prevent such risks.

Found the presentation interesting, thought you may as well. :cookiemonster:


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OfflineCosmicFool
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Re: self driving cars and Asimov's Laws [Re: Tantrika]
    #22742890 - 01/06/16 06:11 AM (8 years, 25 days ago)

great not only can machines start thinking for themselves
but now they have a hive mind too

I guess I better start learning binary
so that I can take orders from my new robot masters


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