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OfflineSleepyE
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Double Slit Mass confusion?
    #22439822 - 10/27/15 11:27 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

It seems like there is a MASSIVE debate on whether it is consciousness that affects the states in the double slit experiment or its the act of looking at something that causes a collapse because it sends information like a photon to disrupt the state and has nothing to do with consciousness..

Seems like this debate has no answer, modern scientists claim the latter is correct.

but many qualified scientists and well renowned ones believe it is consciousness.

I understand that many scientists did not like the consciousness scenario since it opens them up to ideas like solipsism and believing bullshit like the secret and law of attraction.

I just wonder why so many qualified scientists still cling to the consciousness scenario but the leading ones dismiss it.

ive been fishing on youtube comments for double slit videos for answers and it seems the pot is split between educated people who are giving reasons to assert why its consciousness that collapses the state and just as many are giving reasons why its "something else" and then others are saying none of these commenters for or against has any professional qualifications so its just their own guesses.

from what i can read on shroomery here, the educated ones are against the idea of consciousness being the cause.

just wanted to know your opinion on this confusing as shit topic.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #22439848 - 10/27/15 11:32 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

And there are some people who think the double-slit experiment has already been explained.


http://www.kurzweilai.net/when-fluid-dynamics-mimic-quantum-mechanics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie%E2%80%93Bohm_theory#Double-slit_experiment


if you want it: 

Quote:

To explain the behavior when the particle is detected to go through one slit, one needs to appreciate the role of the conditional wavefunction and how it results in the collapse of the wavefunction; this is explained below. The basic idea is that the environment registering the detection effectively separates the two wave packets in configuration space.




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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #22440022 - 10/27/15 12:32 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

To me, the act of observing something is consciousness. If you think about it from a meditative perspective, when you shine a light on your thoughts, you are using your consciousness to become aware of those thoughts. I don't think it's possible to separate consciousness from observation or awareness.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: PocketLady]
    #22440103 - 10/27/15 12:55 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, i guess modern science is trying to defuse any woo thinking when it comes to the results of this, i dont understand fully by far so i need to do a lot of reading to jump to my own conclusion.

i just want to know what other scientists concluded from that experiment.

i know einstein was quoted for saying "i like to think the moon is still there even if im not looking at it." that comment seems like hes not too sure about the results either.

seems sketch to me. :tinfoil:


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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE] * 2
    #22440119 - 10/27/15 12:59 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Everything has consciousness.

Quote:

The basic idea is that the environment registering the detection effectively separates the two wave packets in configuration space.




Including the environment.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: Asante]
    #22440154 - 10/27/15 01:08 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

i know people believe consciousness is the last piece of the puzzle in the sciences incomplete theories, Im just trying to educate myself enough to understand why some might think this way.


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Edited by SleepyE (10/27/15 01:09 PM)


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE]
    #22440182 - 10/27/15 01:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

and i know some people believe the whole universe as well as time and space is designed for consciousness as a medium to send information to itself, or something along those lines. compared to modern sciences belief that consciousness is just a fluke of the universe and is meaningless and not special and the universe would continue to do its thing even if no-one was aware.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: Asante]
    #22440314 - 10/27/15 01:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Everything has consciousness.

Quote:

The basic idea is that the environment registering the detection effectively separates the two wave packets in configuration space.




Including the environment.




Well, that's a very sound implication.  David Bohm was quoted as saying that the implicate order and the wavefunction are the same thing, the same level.  Which really implies that the fundamental fabric of the cosmos must have, to put it conservatively, some consciousness-like attributes.  Or you could just say it is in some way conscious.  This all goes together.

Regarding the quote, it is somehow implicit that the environmental setup, in order to disturb the wave packets, must be in some form of communication with it.  To say the environment is conscious is an imprecise statement, but basically it's saying the same thing.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22440361 - 10/27/15 01:49 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

so consciousness is profoundly connected to the universe on a level deeper than "i just mixed a bunch of chemical drugs made of matter to produce awareness in materials that are as dead as soup."


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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #22440393 - 10/27/15 01:58 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I think so.  It is only an opinion, but it all fits together much better than when I was a hardcore materialist years ago.  It just makes a lot more sense, and I have a legion of personal experiences to back it up (which I do not wish to go into here).  Let me put it this way:  there is no way to eliminate consciousness as a variable from quantum theory.  John von Neumann pointed out in the 1950s in his treatment on orthodox quantum mechanics (which is used to this day) that consciousness in some form or another is required for an internally consistent formulation of orthodox quantum theory.  So, interpret that as you will.  I am interested in different forms of the theory that do not require the orthodox treatment, but in relation to the OP, it is quite relevant.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22440433 - 10/27/15 02:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

great! thanks for the information. Obviously my wishful thinking side wants to believe the woo side but i guess that jury is still out on it. thats good.
maybe existence might turn out to be more than the meaningless fluke materialist science has made it out to be.

i'll make a deal with reality, if i successfully accomplish my dreams and goals then i'll be a believer of a reality where the secret is real :lol:


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Edited by SleepyE (10/27/15 02:08 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE] * 2
    #22440517 - 10/27/15 02:34 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I don't know whether you've heard of it, but there is a hard scientific principle in modern physics which is quite "woo" called entanglement.  It is rather complicated, but let's take electrons, for example.  Every electron exists in a quantum state pairing with another electron, but the two have different spins.  (By the Pauli exclusion principle, no two particles can occupy an identical quantum state).  But here's the weird part:  those two particles, after leaving one another, will have the same spin relationship forever, no matter how far apart they are (even, say, twelve billion light years).  That is, one will spin "up" and the other will spin "down" as if they are in some sort of communication.  Experiments have been performed and have confirmed this weird result of quantum theory.  The communication takes place instantaneously, faster than the speed of light.  It is called "nonlocality."  A lot of people squawk about this because Relativity, of course, does not allow faster than light communication.  But a spin-up/spin-down pair of elections from the same quantum state pairing will always be correlated by some infinitely fast relationship.

I tend to resolve the difficulty for myself by positing that mass-energy (which Relativity deals with) and non-locality are two different levels.  So as long as no spacetime laws are broken, entanglement can occur at a level below it, if you will.  But this is undoubtedly a very mystical phenomenon which is, ironically, at the heart of modern physics.

Fun stuff.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22440580 - 10/27/15 02:49 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

haha yeah ive heard of entanglement but my understanding is primitive so i appreciate the information.

I heard they are trying to develop FTL technology based on that principle for communication.

Yeah thats pretty woo alright, i guess thats why it makes the woo conclusion from double slit a little more reasonable.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE]
    #22440603 - 10/27/15 02:57 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I'm pretty skeptical about FTL communication, because it has to involve a signal of some kind, which would of course be on the level of mass-energy, and subject to the laws of Relativity.  But maybe someday, who knows?

Physicists would deny that physics implies anything mysterious or mystical, but, look, nonlocality is pretty spooky!  The double-slit, as I said, may have been figured out, but maybe not.  Either way, your conclusion is probably no worse than anyone else's, so you can confidently hold any opinion you want! :smile:


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22440709 - 10/27/15 03:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

sweet, im liking those odds :smile:


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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE] * 2
    #22441896 - 10/27/15 08:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)



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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE]
    #22441938 - 10/27/15 08:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SleepyE said:
It seems like there is a MASSIVE debate on whether it is consciousness that affects the states in the double slit experiment...




It might seem that way if you frequent mystical forums and listen to non-scientists.  Experiments already conclusively show that consciousness is not needed to collapse a wavefuction.  Its not debated at all, its just a confused mystics fantasy - they wouldn't know a bra from a ket.


Quote:

SleepyE said:
haha yeah ive heard of entanglement but my understanding is primitive so i appreciate the information.

I heard they are trying to develop FTL technology based on that principle for communication.





Again, you heard wrong.  Nobody is trying to develop FTL communication based on entanglement because it fundamentally doesn't work.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22442018 - 10/27/15 08:39 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

entanglement is still spooky :shrug:


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE]
    #22442030 - 10/27/15 08:41 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

i guess my existence is meaningless and pointless afterall, oh joy  :youthemandawg:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE]
    #22442054 - 10/27/15 08:44 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SleepyE said:
entanglement is still spooky :shrug:





I can't really deny that.  Spooky implies scary and that is what these experiments on the nature of nature are - scary, because they pull the rug out from under our intuitive belief of the way the universe works.  Once you abandon your intuitive belief they cease to be spooky and are simply wondrous.  That would be my suggestion to you - abandon your intuitive beliefs and let raw nature inform you.  Otherwise, you project your beliefs onto nature and then expect that the phenomenon of nature need to be "solved" as though they are a problem... but the only problem all along was your preconceptions.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE]
    #22442059 - 10/27/15 08:45 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SleepyE said:
i guess my existence is meaningless and pointless afterall, oh joy




Its up to you to make meaning and to make a point.  If you are not up to that task then a meaningless, pointless existence may be your fate.  :shrug:


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22442100 - 10/27/15 08:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

i plan on making meaning in my life, pushing myself in all ends of my interests. Its just i cant get over the fact that ive experienced a lot of magic but cannot find information on it actually existing outside my experience.

i appreciate your posts though :hug:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE]
    #22442113 - 10/27/15 08:53 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Its just i cant get over the fact that ive experienced a lot of magic but cannot find information on it actually existing outside my experience.




Experience is undeniable.  The interpretation and rationalization of that experience is not.  I'm full of suggestions.... :wink:  I suggest you let your experience be just that - your experience.  Let it exist independently of interpretations and rationalizations.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22442131 - 10/27/15 08:57 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

i think thats wise, :smile: i can still go with what draws my wonder, i guess there will always be something magical about that.

i mean even if our reality doesnt get stranger than what we are used too, i guess its still pretty spooky that we can from nothing apparently. and that chemicals somehow arrange themselves into something as complex as conscious experience for some reason, thats pretty mystical i guess aha.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE]
    #22442324 - 10/27/15 09:32 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

this was interesting, i came by a physics forum just now with someone asking this very question.

Quote:


The point is that consciousness has nothing to do with measurement.

Quote:


The point is, that statement is patently false. The truth is that measurement, as defined and understood and contemplated and used by the conscious physicist, can happen even if no such physicist is present. However, to give semantic meaning to what a measurement even is, this does indeed require a conscious intelligence (so far as we understand what those words mean), who has been there in a fully analogous situation for us to be able to use any of those words meaningfully. In short, a universe with no intelligent beings is a universe that has no measurements, and no wave functions to collapse. That is not an opinion, it is a fact-- in such a universe there are not the words "wavefunction", there is not the concept "amplitude", because there are no words and no concepts in the first place, stuff just happens, presumably the same as it does now minus any concept of "measurement" or "collapse" of anything. The significance of this fact opens up a lot of what physics really means, but does indeed get a bit philosophical, so if the OPer has any specific questions about it, they should probably frame them in terms of quantum mechanical predictions for this section.

Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-consciousness-involved-in-wave-function-collapse.507154/





Quote:



I think the context of the forum this question was posted in removes the ambiguity you describe.

Quote:


Again, no. Indeed right now there are several threads in this subforum grappling with essentially purely philosophical issues about de Broglie-Bohm interpretations and just what "quantum information" really entails. Issues of determinism as a fundamental truth, or just a modeling assumption, are also being addressed. None of those come under the heading of what the quantum theory says about measurement, because the quantum theory only says one thing about measurements: it predicts them.

Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-consciousness-involved-in-wave-function-collapse.507154/





definitely an interesting read into the idea, im not sure if they know their shit though.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #22442468 - 10/27/15 10:11 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I think this one describes actual experiments well.

Quote:

The collapse of states or wave functions is traditionally related to 'observations'. However there are several common natural systems where states collapse by themselves. Human consiousness or awareness is not relevant at all. You could just make a measuring device that didn't show the results and the measured system would still collapse. In other words, you can't obtain (exact) information of a quantum system without collapsing its states. But it doesn't work the other way around. You can collapse the state without obtaining any information at all.

Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-consciousness-involved-in-wave-function-collapse.507154/




Consiousness is sufficent, but not necessary.  Simply flood the space around the double slit experiment with atmosphere and you will no longer see an interference pattern.  The air alone does the same as a vacuum with a detector and a human reading the output.


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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22447767 - 10/29/15 03:37 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)



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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: laughingdog]
    #22448725 - 10/29/15 10:58 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

That's pretty good.


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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22452083 - 10/30/15 02:22 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

the universe doesn't like it's peas mixed with it's porridge.


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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: SleepyE]
    #22452206 - 10/30/15 04:07 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

A possible 'solution' or interpretation of the equations, might be the existence of higher dimensions?
Do the string theorists have anything to say on the subject?


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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: laughingdog]
    #22452906 - 10/30/15 09:50 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
A possible 'solution' or interpretation of the equations, might be the existence of higher dimensions?
Do the string theorists have anything to say on the subject?




In string theory there are ten spacetime dimensions.  But string theory has "got some issues."


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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22455626 - 10/30/15 09:21 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

by issues you  mean it's non testable?

But if we put the strings thru a slit do we get pasta or meatballs?


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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: laughingdog]
    #22455736 - 10/30/15 09:49 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Haha, yeah, it would require technological precision that, it is said, would be many decades away at best.  So it is experimentally totally untestable and therefore essentially philosophy or religion as far as most physicists are concerned.  Also, it is extraordinarily difficult to get unique solutions for some of the mathematical equations pertaining I believe to the dimensional geometry.  It's a needle in a haystack, essentially -- they're trying to find the one correct solution out of many millions of possible ones, and they don't really know what they're doing.  It's quite a conundrum.  So, string theory is not without its drawbacks.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: laughingdog]
    #22455816 - 10/30/15 10:08 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
A possible 'solution' or interpretation of the equations, might be the existence of higher dimensions?





I like that you put solution in quotes there.  But I can't help but wonder, what exactly is the problem that you want a solution too?  Not trying to give you a hard time, but the more specific you can be the better.


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Re: Double Slit Mass confusion? [Re: DieCommie]
    #22458302 - 10/31/15 04:00 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Im sure the consciousness encompasses the whole universe...and therefore what is projected and created is in the realm of consciousness...So that what is going on can be labled as Mind stuff...or to know exactly the portions that Matter interacts with the material of the mind..the mind can change a substance immediately..into the normal progress of the day or by using transferring alchemy..but the Ki so to speak is interacting with the matter of the universe...which is placed from the Soul..and consciousness in general..to be able to interact and have a story..So that we can be determinative and functioning in an honest awareness..where we have places to live..and things to do..and people to see..as bodies in motion and rest..

But as a total..the matter of the universe came from consciousness...and now is left loose..into the real waves and frequencies of time..

Ultimately man always struggles to be precise..and it is this type of focus..which orders the universe!


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