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OfflineThanatos10
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Meditation or Psychedelics? * 2
    #22429900 - 10/24/15 10:39 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Pardon my spelling if that seems off.

In short I'm kind of stuck on where to go from here. It seems like psyches keep getting pushed onto me as the only way to "see". BUt the thing is, I don't really like taking things that could affect my perception. Alcohol and pot didn't really mesh well with me and I'm afraid of what such a sudden thing like that would do.

SO far I'm doing meditation and it has been working very well for me. I've been becoming more aware of certain things that I had not known before and realizing things I never had before. I know some people say it is the slow way of doing things but it suits me just fine. It is just that the nagging feeling comes into my head that I am inferior for not wanting to partake in psyches. Is that true? Does it make me inferior for choosing not to do them?


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #22429931 - 10/24/15 10:46 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

No need to feel guilty for not doing psyches. You have gotten the message; you can hang up the phone

"Psychedelic experience is only a glimpse of genuine mystical insight, but a glimpse which can be matured and deepened by the various ways of meditation in which drugs are no longer necessary or useful. If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen..." -alan watts

I have "gotten the message" many times over. I just am sort of irresponsible with my use. I still use heavily in the midst of my meditation/yoga/reading daily but its beyond reasonable or needed at this point. Its abuse and I am open enough to admit that

Once could be enough. I would say do what you feel right is for you. I think for many, 1-5 times is more than enough. But I find a light trip once a month would be ideal (for me). I blow farrrrrrr past that number


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22430458 - 10/25/15 03:52 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Its not about speed, remember the tortoise won the race.

Psychedelics can be a useful tool if used with discipline, but they can also be a distraction.

Whoever is pressuring you to use them has been misguided.


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Invisibleonce in a lifetime
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Nemodeus]
    #22430654 - 10/25/15 06:29 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

some wonderful replies.

peace-
J.


--------------------
Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland          Julia Delaney, Bothy Band                                        Rasta Girl, Sister Carol                    Genesis, Jorma K
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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Nemodeus]
    #22431225 - 10/25/15 10:21 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Nemodeus said:
Its not about speed, remember the tortoise won the race.

Psychedelics can be a useful tool if used with discipline, but they can also be a distraction.

Whoever is pressuring you to use them has been misguided.



exactly. The second line in this post sums it up the best. For me it is 100% a distraction. Used responsibly, I would say it helps quite a lot


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #22431257 - 10/25/15 10:32 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Psychedelics just aren't for some people -- a lot of people, actually.  That type of person, which it sounds like you are, should definitely not take them.  I've heard of people for whom the only substance they could take constructively -- out of all of them -- was cannabis.  And I've heard of others for whom cannabis is no good.  So don't worry about that, you're definitely not alone.

I'd say if you're getting positive results from the meditation techniques, focus on that fully.  There are an awful lot of people on this very subforum who have long since ditched psychs for meditation because they are a hindrance to the results meditation can generate.

Keep on keepin' on. :thumbup:


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22431839 - 10/25/15 12:50 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

You don't need to fix something that isn't broken.  If meditation is doing you good then pay no mind to psychedelics.  If they keep entering your mind-scape, maybe trying to come to terms with why you don't want to try them can be helpful.  They are not like alcohol or weed ime so to draw an opinion based off those substances would be improper, though drawing an opinion based on drastically impairing your baseline-awareness is completely proper imo :thumbup:

When people refuse to try psychedelics and they say they don't want to try them because of xy and z I typically (not always) believe they are really just afraid of what they may find in their psyche and spout some excuse instead. 

Any research on mushrooms will yield plenty of articles on the positive effects they can produce on the psyche, so to not even consider them as a means of experience is questionable to me. :shrug:


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: cez] * 1
    #22432417 - 10/25/15 03:36 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

How do I put it...it just doesn't sync with me. That's really the only way I can explain it. That and that bit about it drastically affecting my baseline awarenss. I know I wouldn't be able to handle that sort of thing.

I understand others my feel differently but in my case it was more about ego. It was my ego wanting to feel superior and I thought psyches would be the way to do it. This isn't the first time I had to reign it in. It's an absolute refusal to be subordinate to anyone. But when I meditate that falls away. All of t does, and in the stillness and the time that follows, things come to me.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22432490 - 10/25/15 03:57 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

The above posters have it right. IMO if I were you, I would keep heading in the direction that you are heading in, and take a very low dose psych in about 6 months. For me, a low dose trip every once in a while is more than enough. Thats just me tho

And returning to psyches affter a few years was incredibly helpful. I spent 1-2 years mediting and basically being drug free


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Invisiblechampinhom
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #22434508 - 10/26/15 01:29 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:


SO far I'm doing meditation and it has been working very well for me. I've been becoming more aware of certain things that I had not known before and realizing things I never had before.




With a situation like this, who needs psyches? Psyches are not superior to meditation at all. They are for people who, like Mckenna, couldn't make any headway with meditation.

Meditation is the expressway. Psyches are just one of the access ramps and a dangerous one at that.


--------------------
My father used to say: I don't care what else you do in life, just don't be an asshole. People, forgive me when I forget what my daddy said.

Cut back the proliferating list of people whose opinions can hurt you. Unless they have done or want to do you some good, their views are just not worth tracking.
Saul Bellow

“People are just cannibals unless they leave each other alone.” Doris Lessing

Those whom the gods would save, they dower with compassion. Mr. P.  Silocybin


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: champinhom]
    #22435589 - 10/26/15 11:31 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

champinhom said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:


SO far I'm doing meditation and it has been working very well for me. I've been becoming more aware of certain things that I had not known before and realizing things I never had before.




With a situation like this, who needs psyches? Psyches are not superior to meditation at all. They are for people who, like Mckenna, couldn't make any headway with meditation.

Meditation is the expressway. Psyches are just one of the access ramps and a dangerous one at that.



I sort of agree and disagree with this. They are all tools. If you have a nail, use a hammer. If you need to screw something in, use a screwdriver

The issue seems to be that when all you have a is hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. And by this I mean that people typically align themselves with only one of these methods. Instead, just learn to embrace both :shrug:


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: topdog82]
    #22435629 - 10/26/15 11:40 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

And to add on to what I said before; there have been points in life where meditation hasn't done anything for me. But psyches have. You can't make such bold claims unless you have experience and science to show that meditation is capable of producing ALL the states a psychedelics expereince can with the same magnitude in ALL people in ALL periods of life


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: topdog82] * 1
    #22435679 - 10/26/15 11:51 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not saying that. I personally don't mind whatever people do as long as it doesn't bother me. But in this case I just seem rather drawn to this method. I personally don't like taking things to produce effects. That's just me (and I have had experiences with a number of certain substances). Nothing felt more natural, "at home", or more drawn to than meditation for me.

I recognize that everyone has their thing. It's just not mine. The trouble with both methods is that it affects everyone differently, so it's hard if not impossible to have an objective state on it.


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As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22435686 - 10/26/15 11:53 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

And for arguments sake let's say I did decide to try it. I don't have any way of getting access to them and I don't have a place to do them if I did.


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As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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Invisiblechampinhom
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: topdog82]
    #22435749 - 10/26/15 12:08 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

topdog82 said:
They are all tools. If you have a nail, use a hammer. If you need to screw something in, use a screwdriver

The issue seems to be that when all you have a is hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. And by this I mean that people typically align themselves with only one of these methods. Instead, just learn to embrace both :shrug:




:thumbup:


--------------------
My father used to say: I don't care what else you do in life, just don't be an asshole. People, forgive me when I forget what my daddy said.

Cut back the proliferating list of people whose opinions can hurt you. Unless they have done or want to do you some good, their views are just not worth tracking.
Saul Bellow

“People are just cannibals unless they leave each other alone.” Doris Lessing

Those whom the gods would save, they dower with compassion. Mr. P.  Silocybin


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22435799 - 10/26/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Pardon my spelling if that seems off.

In short I'm kind of stuck on where to go from here. It seems like psyches keep getting pushed onto me as the only way to "see". But the thing is, I don't really like taking things that could affect my perception. Alcohol and pot didn't really mesh well with me and I'm afraid of what such a sudden thing like that would do.

SO far I'm doing meditation and it has been working very well for me. I've been becoming more aware of certain things that I had not known before and realizing things I never had before. I know some people say it is the slow way of doing things but it suits me just fine. It is just that the nagging feeling comes into my head that I am inferior for not wanting to partake in psyches. Is that true? Does it make me inferior for choosing not to do them?




It occurs to me to ask you why, if you are so drawn to the drugless approach, do you come with this query to a site that is dedicated to the pursuit of happiness through the ingestion of substances? It would make more sense to go to some non duality forum--there are dozens of these. Someone there will be much more likely to encourage, support and advise you on your preferred  modality.

My guess is that you came here because you are wobbling a bit in your devotion to the high and dry method and might like a little push in the other direction.


--------------------
My father used to say: I don't care what else you do in life, just don't be an asshole. People, forgive me when I forget what my daddy said.

Cut back the proliferating list of people whose opinions can hurt you. Unless they have done or want to do you some good, their views are just not worth tracking.
Saul Bellow

“People are just cannibals unless they leave each other alone.” Doris Lessing

Those whom the gods would save, they dower with compassion. Mr. P.  Silocybin


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: champinhom]
    #22436050 - 10/26/15 01:23 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

champinhom said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Pardon my spelling if that seems off.

In short I'm kind of stuck on where to go from here. It seems like psyches keep getting pushed onto me as the only way to "see". But the thing is, I don't really like taking things that could affect my perception. Alcohol and pot didn't really mesh well with me and I'm afraid of what such a sudden thing like that would do.

SO far I'm doing meditation and it has been working very well for me. I've been becoming more aware of certain things that I had not known before and realizing things I never had before. I know some people say it is the slow way of doing things but it suits me just fine. It is just that the nagging feeling comes into my head that I am inferior for not wanting to partake in psyches. Is that true? Does it make me inferior for choosing not to do them?




It occurs to me to ask you why, if you are so drawn to the drugless approach, do you come with this query to a site that is dedicated to the pursuit of happiness through the ingestion of substances? It would make more sense to go to some non duality forum--there are dozens of these. Someone there will be much more likely to encourage, support and advise you on your preferred  modality.

My guess is that you came here because you are wobbling a bit in your devotion to the high and dry method and might like a little push in the other direction.




The problem is that i don't know of other forums like that. I just came here because this is the only one that I know of and it was because I came here to resolve a previous issue regarding psyches. I'm only here because I don't know of any other ones.


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As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22436129 - 10/26/15 01:46 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
And for arguments sake let's say I did decide to try it. I don't have any way of getting access to them and I don't have a place to do them if I did.




How are they being pushed on you if you don't have access to them?


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: cez]
    #22436282 - 10/26/15 02:33 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Certain people I know online, plus a few other "alternative media" websites.


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22437548 - 10/26/15 08:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

You need to take your insight and meditation with you after your psychadelic experience;


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #22437583 - 10/26/15 08:34 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
You need to take your insight and meditation with you after your psychadelic experience;




I'm not really interested in the experience. But it's like a nagging obsession in my head. Kind of like someone pointing a gun at you and telling you that you must or else. Thing is, I don't know why.


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22443593 - 10/28/15 07:27 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I don't really understand your feeling of subjection/gun to head? 

Have you tried any of the Jhana meditations or Yoga Nidra?  You might find more satisfaction in those.

I came here due to experiences during meditations, which I was told were trippy, seeking help in how to digest them.  So it's entirely possible to have those experiences dry.

And Imho, there are many ways to have a psych. experience....someone correct me if I'm off, but I gather it has more to do with force/purity of concentration coupled with relaxation.  But if you don't want experiences you don't have to have any, it's not neccessary for growth to force it.  It does happen on it's own.


--------------------
Oh, God! The stupid! It burns!-Abraham Lincoln


Edited by Thecollective (10/28/15 07:30 AM)


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thecollective]
    #22443892 - 10/28/15 08:52 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Thecollective said:
And Imho, there are many ways to have a psych. experience....someone correct me if I'm off, but I gather it has more to do with force/purity of concentration coupled with relaxation.




:yesnod:


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Universaleyeni]
    #22466146 - 11/02/15 10:45 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Universaleyeni said:
Quote:

Thecollective said:
And Imho, there are many ways to have a psych. experience....someone correct me if I'm off, but I gather it has more to do with force/purity of concentration coupled with relaxation.




:yesnod:



This times a million. QFT


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: topdog82]
    #22493520 - 11/07/15 11:18 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

For enlightened living, you need meditation, but you do not need psychedelics. However, they are enormously beneficial for the vast majority of users who use them mindfully. They are a tool to make the journey easier, faster. Rick Strassman talked about how a high prevalence of buddhist monks used psychedelics, and many of them would have been dedicated practitioners for decades and "would never really get the message" until they used psychedelics.

Really, I think if you are interested in mindful living, it's stupid to not use them. I think it's a misconception to say that it's cheating to use psychedelics or that the result is not real because it was easier. It's the same end result.

I'm not saying you need to use them very often at all -- definitely don't bite off more than you can chew -- but don't close yourself off to them. They are fantastic teachers, and loads of fun.

Oh, and let's be clear: you are never inferior for making any choice. You are human being and deserve love and respect, no matter what.


Edited by Love2Love (11/07/15 11:21 PM)


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Love2Love]
    #22495982 - 11/08/15 02:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

But that's the thing. From what I hear many people taking I feel inferior for not doing it. The same was when people takes about alcohol and pot. Which is what eventually led me to trying them, sort of being badgered into it.


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22496149 - 11/08/15 03:09 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
But that's the thing. From what I hear many people taking I feel inferior for not doing it. The same was when people takes about alcohol and pot. Which is what eventually led me to trying them, sort of being badgered into it.



Lol dont be. I go to college and party all the time. I am basically high as fuck on life so I rarely get drunk. I can't remember the last time I got drunk. I drink 1-3 drinks a night MAX on the weekends. SOmetimes I just drink water. If people offer me a drink/shot I turn them down and say Im "pacing myself"

At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with educating yourself about the pro's and cons of certain things and trying things out


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: topdog82]
    #22496476 - 11/08/15 04:18 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not particularly experienced with psychedelics but I don't think you can really say much about the experience, and it IS about the experience, whether or not you 'take something from it', it is about being somewhere else, being something else. And that's it. There's far too much going on to think you can take much back with you. With mushrooms it's just "welcome to paradise, enjoy your 4 to 6 hour stay."


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My shield...
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TESTED
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: circastes]
    #22497162 - 11/08/15 06:14 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

4-6 hours? Geez that's too long for me.


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22497253 - 11/08/15 06:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It seems clear that you're the type of person who does not like to have his consciousness altered.  This is totally normal, and common.  So the best course of action is obviously not to do it, end of story.  There is absolutely no shame in that.  It's perfectly clear you wouldn't enjoy a mushroom trip, so don't worry about what it might be like.  You wouldn't enjoy it.  So I wouldn't worry.


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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22497495 - 11/08/15 07:20 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Better not to use psychedelics imo if you are making good progress without them. Psychedelics are for people who are struggling, or people who really resonate with psychedelics.

They can also be a serious distraction and very damaging. I have had a fair amount of psychedelic experience and while I feel it did a lot more good for me than bad, it definitely did a lot of bad.

I also think there is an unfortunate and misguided obsession/reverence for psychedelics on forums like this where people tend to use spirituality as an excuse to get high.

I say this because I have recently begun exploring other "teacher plants", such as kava and amanita muscaria. You could call these psychedelic but their effects and mode of action are very different from drugs like psilocybin, mescaline and LSD. I find them to be much safer, gentler and far superior at the stage where I am at currently. Psychedelics helped to break down some barriers which something as gentle as kava simply would not break down because with kava you have the option to resist what it is trying to show you. If you take repeated high doses of psilocybin and mescaline like I did, you will eventually have to face subconscious material you may not want to face whether you like it or not.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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InvisibleLove2Love
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Registered: 11/07/15
Posts: 31
Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22498832 - 11/09/15 01:29 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
But that's the thing. From what I hear many people taking I feel inferior for not doing it. The same was when people takes about alcohol and pot. Which is what eventually led me to trying them, sort of being badgered into it.




I'm going to give you some tough love. Grow the fuck up. You shouldn't put so much stock in other peoples opinions of you. Do things only because you want to. If someone is giving you shit for not doing something, fuck them, they are in the wrong. Take pride in your individuality.

But if you feel like you are missing out on something because everyone is raving about how good psychedelics are and you get curious, then do it. But do it because you want to, not because you don't want to be the odd man.

Also, I'm curious, why do you think that 4-6 hours is too long?


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OfflineKinko
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Love2Love]
    #22498868 - 11/09/15 01:54 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I believe OP is afraid of psychedelics which is common for first timers or people who dont do drugs in general...  but give it a try man it will be the best day of your life


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Love2Love]
    #22499813 - 11/09/15 10:38 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Love2Love said:
For enlightened living, you need meditation, but you do not need psychedelics. However, they are enormously beneficial for the vast majority of users who use them mindfully. They are a tool to make the journey easier, faster. Rick Strassman talked about how a high prevalence of buddhist monks used psychedelics, and many of them would have been dedicated practitioners for decades and "would never really get the message" until they used psychedelics.

Really, I think if you are interested in mindful living, it's stupid to not use them. I think it's a misconception to say that it's cheating to use psychedelics or that the result is not real because it was easier. It's the same end result.

I'm not saying you need to use them very often at all -- definitely don't bite off more than you can chew -- but don't close yourself off to them. They are fantastic teachers, and loads of fun.

Oh, and let's be clear: you are never inferior for making any choice. You are human being and deserve love and respect, no matter what.



Fuck me that's a wonderfully balanced response. Refreshing, very nicely said man. I wholeheartedly congratulate you.

Thantos - you would do very well to take this on-board IMO.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22500542 - 11/09/15 01:43 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I honestly don't have an interest in using them or taking anything really. I only took alcohol and pot so people would leave me alone. It seems like nobody respected my decisions and just kept bothering me until I yielded.

Also to be honest, I'm not 100% committed to the whole spiritual aspect. My philosophy is people can do whatever they want as long as they don't bug me or anyone else.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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OfflineTheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.
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Re: Meditation or Psychedelics? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22518080 - 11/13/15 01:05 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well I for one just think it's a beautiful thing we live in a day and age a person can make this decision.  Furthermore Psychedelic experiences seem to be a very humanizing healthy time if handled correctly.


--------------------
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a
sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the
dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an
equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein
Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs


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