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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22421758 - 10/23/15 07:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The Department of Education is by far one of the smallest cabinets. Most education stuff is still handled on a local level. It's also a small part of the budget. The office itself stretches back to 1867 though it was part of larger cabinets until 1980. I have no idea the state of public education prior to 1867 but I bet it was pretty poor.
As far as SSI, it's simply not that cut and dry. Yes, on average for a 45 year work career stock investment is better. But SSI is more stable.
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Plus, Social Security provides inflation-adjusted income for as long as you and your survivors live. It protects from inflation, market volatility, and longevity. That is quite a benefit.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-view-social-security-vs-a-long-term-stock-portfolio-2015-06-29
As I pointed out in another thread, or possibly this one, people do lose stock value to crashes that have need for that money before the market recovers. They may have stocks that are worth millions ten years down the road but that means little when your mortgage is due today.
All of that aside SSI is a social investment even if you don't personally take advantage of it. If you want to invest in stocks as your retirement fund and retire early, go right ahead. That SSI money can be reinvested in society to take care of someone who needs it or even to take care of you if your stock portfolio leaves you poor and homeless.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22421782 - 10/23/15 07:46 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Do you remember Enron? The employees who lost everything? Yeah, they got no sympathy from me, they put all their money into Enron and that's stupid, the most novice invester knows not to do that. Even with the stock market, who in their right minds keeps their whole retirement portfolio in stocks? Stocks, bonds, growth funds, interest bearing savings accounts, real estate, usually even only the house you're living in, Diversification is key, I learned that when I opened my first 401k at age 18
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22421832 - 10/23/15 08:07 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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SSI is part of that diversification. If everything else goes to hell your SSI will hopefully keep you off the street.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22421857 - 10/23/15 08:16 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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hostileuniverse said: Do you remember Enron? The employees who lost everything? Yeah, they got no sympathy from me, they put all their money into Enron and that's stupid, the most novice invester knows not to do that. Even with the stock market, who in their right minds keeps their whole retirement portfolio in stocks? Stocks, bonds, growth funds, interest bearing savings accounts, real estate, usually even only the house you're living in, Diversification is key, I learned that when I opened my first 401k at age 18
Thank God you are so damned smart! LOL
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22422151 - 10/23/15 09:46 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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15% of your wages going into SSI is NOT diversification, that's a fuck load of money you're pissing away into ONE thing, how the fuck is someone in the middle class supposed to save when the govt takes 15% right of of the top, plus federal taxes, plus every other goddam tax I've pointed to multiple times, jeesh!
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22422287 - 10/23/15 10:14 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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It's not 15%. And there's a cap on it. Personally I'd like to see the cap removed and SSI made progressive so the impact on the lower and middle class was less than on the upper class.
It's also a social program that not only functions as old age insurance but also helps widows, orphans, and disabled people too.
http://www.fool.com/retirement/general/2012/10/15/5-huge-myths-about-social-security.aspx
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Assuming the aggregate Social Security contributions for any individual to be equal to 15% of his lifetime income is a flawed approach, because the required levels of Social Security contributions have varied across time, and Social Security contributions from individuals and employers combined have never "totaled 15% of your income before taxes." The current contribution level is 12.4%, and historically the contribution rates have been significantly less. (Many people confuse Federal Insurance Contributions Act [FICA] payments, which are currently assessed at a 15.3% rate, with Social Security, but they are not the same thing. FICA payments include both Social Security and Medicare taxes.)
Assuming the Social Security contributions for any individual to be equal to a percentage of his average lifetime income is a flawed approach, because Social Security contributions have a yearly cap (i.e., contributors never pay more than a specified maximum amount, no matter how much money they make in a given year). A person who earned $80,000 in 2001 would have paid just as much into Social Security as a person who made $750,000 in 2001, so assuming that the Social Security contributions for each equalled 12.4% of their income that year would produce a grossly inflated figure in the latter case.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/benefit.asp
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22422359 - 10/23/15 10:28 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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So you pay 15% for a program you don't use until you're elderly, you're paying Medicare tax but you can't use until you retire, correct? So you have to buy health insurance on top of that until then
So yes, SSI, Fica, what ever name you wanna call it, is 15%
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Posts: 3,131
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22422374 - 10/23/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: 15% of your wages going into SSI is NOT diversification, that's a fuck load of money you're pissing away into ONE thing, how the fuck is someone in the middle class supposed to save when the govt takes 15% right of of the top, plus federal taxes, plus every other goddam tax I've pointed to multiple times, jeesh!
What you're forgetting is that most people DON'T save, don't plan for retirement and are unable to retire when the time comes. Social Security is FORCED savings, to some extent. It doesn't have the returns of good investing, but it will be there.
It was a program to lower POVERTY levels ... not an investment alternative. If we got rid of it, the poverty levels in America would soar and 10-15% of the population, that plans, saves and invests would do better.
The answer to all problems is education and a smarter population. Unfortunately, we're going in the wrong direction ... you can get all frustrated about it, but it's reality. We have to deal with a country that is getting dumber ...
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22422489 - 10/23/15 11:11 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said:
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hostileuniverse said: 15% of your wages going into SSI is NOT diversification, that's a fuck load of money you're pissing away into ONE thing, how the fuck is someone in the middle class supposed to save when the govt takes 15% right of of the top, plus federal taxes, plus every other goddam tax I've pointed to multiple times, jeesh!
What you're forgetting is that most people DON'T save, don't plan for retirement and are unable to retire when the time comes. Social Security is FORCED savings, to some extent. It doesn't have the returns of good investing, but it will be there.
It was a program to lower POVERTY levels ... not an investment alternative. If we got rid of it, the poverty levels in America would soar and 10-15% of the population, that plans, saves and invests would do better.
The answer to all problems is education and a smarter population. Unfortunately, we're going in the wrong direction ... you can get all frustrated about it, but it's reality. We have to deal with a country that is getting dumber ...
Like I've said before, I don't have anything against social safety nets and helping the poor, my issue is the extreme waste of giving over half my income to the govt when I KNOW I'm get nothing out of it, and unlike you, I'm not just gonna sit back and say "oh well, gotta keep busting my ass so the stupid and lazy don't starve," Theres a huge difference between paying a fair share and strait up being extorted
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22422525 - 10/23/15 11:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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hostileuniverse said:
Like I've said before, I don't have anything against social safety nets and helping the poor, my issue is the extreme waste of giving over half my income to the govt when I KNOW I'm get nothing out of it, and unlike you, I'm not just gonna sit back and say "oh well, gotta keep busting my ass so the stupid and lazy don't starve," Theres a huge difference between paying a fair share and strait up being extorted
Not sure why you're saying I sit back and say ....
I own my own business ... have owned and sold 2 others. Own my house 100% with no debt ... Am heavily invested in the markets ... I vote but realize that my vote is a tiny, tiny voice in the noise. The kind of candidate I'd like to see never emerges as corporations control the game. I'm most interested in getting big money out of politics. If you want to get yourself all worked up about it and complain about the poor, the moochers, the lazy, hey, have at it. I just don't find that makes much of a difference and it spoils my attitude.
I speak out against the absolute dumbest candidates out there which, this season seem to be Trump, Jeb, Hillary and Cruz ...
I'd love to see a guy like Mark Cuban get in the race or Jeff Bezos or Elan Musk ... but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. As such, we'll probably get another corporate candidate that pushes more bs, debt, secrecy, surveillance, spin and corporate influence.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22422541 - 10/23/15 11:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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If it comes down to not-Trump vs. Sanders how do you think you'll vote HU?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22422574 - 10/23/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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paperbackwriter said: If it comes down to not-Trump vs. Sanders how do you think you'll vote HU?
Like I've said, I'll vote for whoever I feel will do the least damage to our country
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22422604 - 10/23/15 11:55 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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haha.. yeah, same here.
For me that's Sanders. I want to see the Patriot Act gutted. I want to see the Drug War stopped and for profit prisons gone. Encouraging coops, labor unions, and social programs are just icing on the cake.
But I think what he's proposing does need to be handled carefully so it doesn't create more government bloat. The ACA is pretty much FUBAR.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22422629 - 10/23/15 12:05 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: haha.. yeah, same here.
For me that's Sanders. I want to see the Patriot Act gutted. I want to see the Drug War stopped and for profit prisons gone. Encouraging coops, labor unions, and social programs are just icing on the cake.
But I think what he's proposing does need to be handled carefully so it doesn't create more government bloat. The ACA is pretty much FUBAR.
If Sanders was able to dial back surveillance, reform the drug sentencing laws, put the Volker Rule back into place, lead a campaign finance reform movement, get rid of for profit prisons, prevent another big dumb ground war and make a serious minimum wage improvement, I'd call that a super successful presidency and worth voting for ...
Not sure he can accomplish all of that, but I don't see any other candidates proposing a better bucket of changes that address the real problems in America.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Bigbadwooof
Snitterbundem The Dirty



Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22422779 - 10/23/15 12:45 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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paperbackwriter said: If it comes down to not-Trump vs. Sanders how do you think you'll vote HU?
If it comes down to Trump vs Hillary, who would you vote for?
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
 
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Bigbadwooof
Snitterbundem The Dirty



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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22422799 - 10/23/15 12:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: haha.. yeah, same here.
For me that's Sanders. I want to see the Patriot Act gutted. I want to see the Drug War stopped and for profit prisons gone. Encouraging coops, labor unions, and social programs are just icing on the cake.
But I think what he's proposing does need to be handled carefully so it doesn't create more government bloat. The ACA is pretty much FUBAR.
If Sanders was able to dial back surveillance, reform the drug sentencing laws, put the Volker Rule back into place, lead a campaign finance reform movement, get rid of for profit prisons, prevent another big dumb ground war and make a serious minimum wage improvement, I'd call that a super successful presidency and worth voting for ...
Not sure he can accomplish all of that, but I don't see any other candidates proposing a better bucket of changes that address the real problems in America.
Right. Sanders isn't the flashiest, he isn't terribly well spoken, he isn't charming, and he's very redundant. However, he has integrity, concern for our country, he's fought the good fight longer than anyone, and has a record of getting shit done. He actually comes off human.
I can imagine a better candidate, but I've never seen one.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
 
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Posts: 3,131
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22422855 - 10/23/15 01:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
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paperbackwriter said: If it comes down to not-Trump vs. Sanders how do you think you'll vote HU?
If it comes down to Trump vs Hillary, who would you vote for?
An election between Trump and Hillary would be depressing ... To put it mildly. I'd probably vote Trump just because I can't stand the Clintons ... then move to South America for awhile.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Bigbadwooof
Snitterbundem The Dirty



Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22422918 - 10/23/15 01:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
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Bigbadwooof said:
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paperbackwriter said: If it comes down to not-Trump vs. Sanders how do you think you'll vote HU?
If it comes down to Trump vs Hillary, who would you vote for?
An election between Trump and Hillary would be depressing ... To put it mildly. I'd probably vote Trump just because I can't stand the Clintons ... then move to South America for awhile.
Yeah... I'm moving to South America too. I'll live off coca plants in the jungle.
Anyways... I think I would vote for Trump also... 
I would cringe to see that old bag of cunt get elected. I think I would actively go out and vote for the worst president we've ever had over the worst president we could have. I don't want another two faced fucking liar who despises the common American in office. Thats the feeling I get from Hillary. The sleaziest of sleazy politicians. She symbolizes everything I hate about government, to me.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
 
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22422952 - 10/23/15 01:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
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paperbackwriter said: If it comes down to not-Trump vs. Sanders how do you think you'll vote HU?
If it comes down to Trump vs Hillary, who would you vote for?
I think they're both terrible but I would vote Hillary. Three supreme court justices are over 80.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
#22422979 - 10/23/15 01:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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paperbackwriter said:
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Bigbadwooof said:
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paperbackwriter said: If it comes down to not-Trump vs. Sanders how do you think you'll vote HU?
If it comes down to Trump vs Hillary, who would you vote for?
I think they're both terrible but I would vote Hillary. Three supreme court justices are over 80.
This. Much as I would like to throw a wrench in the gears of the establishment, the better bet is for Hillary to get pushed left and nominate some legitimate justices
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