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MajickMuffin
Edible Cult


Registered: 05/28/14
Posts: 4,345
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PC Jars for 60m VS 90m ?
#22417440 - 10/22/15 09:50 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Okay, so what is the difference? I mean, obviously PC'ing for 90 minutes must have a better success rate (100%), so, what is 60m success rate?
Please share your experiences.
Other Q: PC'ing lightly contaminated substrate, would it work? (id imagine!)
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Mr. Alien
I will abduct andprobe your anus



Registered: 01/14/14
Posts: 6,290
Loc: Star Wars Galaxy
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It depends on the volume and the grain you are trying to sterilize. Rice is easily sterilized, a quart jar of rice pfff like 60 minutes or less, a quart of a hard grain like wheat 90 minutes, a mycobag 120 minutes or more.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
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90mins @ 15 psi for 1 qt jars does not guarantee 100% success. there's a good reason people add time to "be on the safe side".
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
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Re: PC Jars for 60m VS 90m ? [Re: spacechildo]
#22417583 - 10/22/15 10:35 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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adding a half hour to a PC cycle is one of the easiest things to do in this hobby.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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Mr. Alien
I will abduct andprobe your anus



Registered: 01/14/14
Posts: 6,290
Loc: Star Wars Galaxy
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i sterilize at 17 psi for 2 hours quart jars.
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MajickMuffin
Edible Cult


Registered: 05/28/14
Posts: 4,345
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I though 60m was enough.
Have any idea of an estimated success rate for 60m?
Hydrated Oak, RF jars, Hydrated Corn.
I mean Ive already got like 60 jars knocked up at 60m and ive heard people say before that 60m did it for them.
Thank you for answering me guys but nobody is actually answering my question.
Also: Other Q: PC'ing lightly contaminated substrate, would it work? (id imagine!)
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Mr. Alien
I will abduct andprobe your anus



Registered: 01/14/14
Posts: 6,290
Loc: Star Wars Galaxy
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Quote:
MajickMuffin said: Have any idea of an estimated success rate for 60m?
Also: Other Q: PC'ing lightly contaminated substrate, would it work? (id imagine!)
80%? how the hell would i know. Bacteria is a bitch and hides in the very core of the grains and some grains have more bacteria than others. Also i never tried re-sterilizing a failed substrate, i just toss them out.
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MajickMuffin
Edible Cult


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Re: PC Jars for 60m VS 90m ? [Re: Mr. Alien]
#22417921 - 10/22/15 11:55 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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You would know if, for example, in the past you did 10 jars at 60m and 8/10 jars were fine.
That's why I asked for experience. But thank you! I just want to know if its fucking possible.
And if pressure would kill every bacteria and mold is imagine you could PC contaminated jars then inject spores.
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DrCrumbs
Alpha Blue


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I wouldnt reuse contaminated jars. I don't have personal experience but there was probably something wrong in the first place, like wetter or busted grains. Sure you could kill the contam.
Now you also have digested grains in there, and foreign materials that even if sterilized could cause problems.
I've re fired grains that sat for over two weeks, no contams but wanted to be safe and they turned out great.
About ten years ago, when I did grains I only did 60 mins. I was doing quart jars. It worked well, I did have more problems then (85% success). This could have been from a number of things (like wetter than normal grains, not doing everything as well).
I do 120 mins now and recommend it. Since you already did 60mins and knocked them up, I wouldnt worry about it to much.
I would also start some more and keep going.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
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Re: PC Jars for 60m VS 90m ? [Re: DrCrumbs]
#22418250 - 10/22/15 01:04 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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27 psi)
Right out of TMC. 1983.. This isn't new news that 15 psi for 1 hour isn't enough. Hell I don't even think 15 @ 90 minutes is enough.
I do 23 psi for 2 hours.
That cobbled with the fact people soak their grains. Which some speculate actually increases the endospore population rather than "germinate and elimante" theory. The fact is that even in good conditions bacteria will produce endospores as a defense mechanism. Granted in much lower quantities than if it was in trouble, but there's still endospores being made.
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
clostridum butyricum from brewers grain(rye malt) it's very heat resistant because of the spores. It is responsible for the most part in the rancid smell if you let grains soak too long. it will survive the boil and is why your grains go bad and smell like puke and Greek feet feta if you don't sterilize them after your grain prep.
it forms endospores even culture on anaerobic plates with an abidance of nutrients. as you can see some subset of the population finds it appropriate to form endospores despite not having "bad conditions" as conditions get worse spore formation goes up. I would be nearly positive you end up with more endospores if you do a soak than if you skip a soak, either way these DO get killed by a PC in a sufficient cycle.
Edited by Mad Season (10/22/15 01:21 PM)
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Mr. Alien
I will abduct andprobe your anus



Registered: 01/14/14
Posts: 6,290
Loc: Star Wars Galaxy
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Quote:
MajickMuffin said: You would know if, for example, in the past you did 10 jars at 60m and 8/10 jars were fine.
That's why I asked for experience. But thank you! I just want to know if its fucking possible.
And if pressure would kill every bacteria and mold is imagine you could PC contaminated jars then inject spores.
I've sterilized quart jars of grains for 1 hour before and went fine, some other times i had 2 or 3 failed jars. So yes is fucking possible to have a 100% success rate or a 50% success rate, who knows? Like i said bacteria is a bitch, and hides in the very core of every grain and some grains have more than others. I don't know why but it seems that bacteria in grains vary depending on the location where the grains where cultivated and type of grain. So the best you can do is sterilize them for a little longer. I remember some years back then i had a batch of wheat grain that it had a very bad success rate almost every time i sterilize for 1 hour, then i got another source of wheat grain and had 100% success rate almost every time with the same sterilization time, i discovered that the new source was cultivated in another region.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
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Quote:
blindingleaf said: adding a half hour to a PC cycle is one of the easiest things to do in this hobby.
aaaand,
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MajickMuffin
Edible Cult


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Re: PC Jars for 60m VS 90m ? [Re: spacechildo]
#22418349 - 10/22/15 01:34 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DrCrumbs said: I wouldnt reuse contaminated jars. I don't have personal experience but there was probably something wrong in the first place, like wetter or busted grains. Sure you could kill the contam.
Now you also have digested grains in there, and foreign materials that even if sterilized could cause problems.
I've re fired grains that sat for over two weeks, no contams but wanted to be safe and they turned out great.
About ten years ago, when I did grains I only did 60 mins. I was doing quart jars. It worked well, I did have more problems then (85% success). This could have been from a number of things (like wetter than normal grains, not doing everything as well).
I do 120 mins now and recommend it. Since you already did 60mins and knocked them up, I wouldnt worry about it to much.
I would also start some more and keep going.
Thank you! You answered all my questions perfectly.
Thank you everybody for the assistance.
Next time I will do 90-120 minutes but at least I know that it wasn't a total waste of time and supplies.Quote:
spacechildo said:

Quote:
blindingleaf said: adding a half hour to a PC cycle is one of the easiest things to do in this hobby.
aaaand, 
Well no shit, I just didnt know it was necessary
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
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well we dont do it for fun and giggles so..
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: PC Jars for 60m VS 90m ? [Re: spacechildo]
#22418431 - 10/22/15 01:59 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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really?? I love increasing PC times. I get to have a longer break!
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
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Re: PC Jars for 60m VS 90m ? [Re: Mad Season]
#22418539 - 10/22/15 02:25 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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that's because you're lazy!  you need to apply yourself Mr. Mad!
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MajickMuffin
Edible Cult


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Re: PC Jars for 60m VS 90m ? [Re: Mad Season]
#22418561 - 10/22/15 02:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said:
really?? I love increasing PC times. I get to have a longer break!
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: PC Jars for 60m VS 90m ? [Re: spacechildo]
#22418588 - 10/22/15 02:34 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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it really really really depends on the CFU load before you autoclave. most endospores will be killed by very short exposure to 121C. the death times for even the toughest endospores we encounter is minutes. but grains are much harder to sterilize than liquids. agar only needs 15m at 15psi maybe a little longer if you do grain soak agar but I'm not convinced. for grain though I never do less than 2 hours at 15psi which is more like 17psi with my quarters
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
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Loc: Canada
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Too much 
Not enough 
I love pasty's drunken big pin. That's how u get shit done!
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



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Re: PC Jars for 60m VS 90m ? [Re: Mad Season]
#22418700 - 10/22/15 03:00 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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For quarts filled with ~2cups Had lots of problems with bacterial grass seed. That shit need to cook quite some time it seems, 90+. WBS it seems you can get away with 60. I prefer 75 if I'm lazy and 90 if I'm not. Brown rice also seems alright at 75, but again I prefer 90.
For quarts filled with ~3+cups I don't think I'd be comfortable with less than 90m, and would rather push it to at least 100m.
I haven't used rye, which I hear is the endospore king.
Also, if you're using grain master jars or grain for slury, be concervative with your cook times. Really don't want any bacteria in that.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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