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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Aging..
    #2240261 - 01/13/04 10:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How does it happen?


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Re: Aging.. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2240276 - 01/13/04 10:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

As far as science knows?

It probably has to do (mostly, anyway) with damage to DNA caused by free-radicals (highly reactive byproducts of cell chemistry). Free-radical production is a result of the ATP production process, inside mitochondria. The free-radicals produced during ATP synthesis leave the mitochondria and cause all kinds of damage to the cell from within - including damage to the DNA machinery itself.

There is also the possibility of telomeres, "end caps" of non-gene DNA at both ends of the DNA strand, which become shorter and shorter with each successive DNA replication. Hence there is only so many times a DNA strand can divide and replicate before the telomeres (which protect the ends of the strand from breaking apart like a frayed shoe lace) become too short to protect the DNA. At this point the cell either dies or goes cancerous (most likely cell death, one would hope) and no new cells can be produced.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Aging.. [Re: trendal]
    #2240295 - 01/13/04 10:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It probably has to do (mostly, anyway) with damage to DNA caused by free-radicals (highly reactive byproducts of cell chemistry). Free-radical production is a result of the ATP production process, inside mitochondria. The free-radicals produced during ATP synthesis leave the mitochondria and cause all kinds of damage to the cell from within - including damage to the DNA machinery itself.




What do you think about controlled starvation as an attempt to slow down cell aging?


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Re: Aging.. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2240314 - 01/13/04 10:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Caloric restriction?

I think it's actually a very promising idea. I've been toying with the idea of putting myself on a calorie-restricted diet, actually! I'm already half way there :smile:

For those who don't know about caloric restriction:
It has been found that if calorie intake is taken WAY back, in a tightly controlled manner, BOTH maximum and average lifespan can be increased by up to or even over 50%. The theory is that by reducing glucose levels (ie: calorie intake) to JUST the level required for survival, your cells go into a self-preservation mode. Cell division is cut way back, almost stopped completely, and instead the cell spends its time and energy actively repairing itself. This coupled with the fact that less glucose=less ATP synthesis=less free-radical production means the cell is able to completely counter the effect of free-radical damage. The cell is able to survive for vastly extended periods of time - much longer than is normally possible.

This has been proven to work in lab animals, with increases of 50% or more in BOTH average and max lifespan. Also, age-related diseases like diabetes and cancer are put off until the very last few years of life. If this success could be translated to humans, we would all have an average lifespan of about 120 years and would not have to worry about age-related diseases until the last 5-10 years of life.

Unfortunately, the ammount of food-intake you have to cut yourself back by is more than most people can handle (psychologically, not physically) :smirk:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Aging.. [Re: trendal]
    #2240318 - 01/13/04 10:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Trendal, really interesting... I never heard of that before.

Theoretically then, how does travelling at the speed of light slow the aging process then?  [Am I correct in saying that?]


SpecialEd:  What do you think about controlled starvation as an attempt to slow down cell aging?  

Whoa!  :eek:  I never really heard of that before either..


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Re: Aging.. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2240337 - 01/13/04 10:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Near light-speed travel does not exactly slow the aging process...it slows time down - which obviously results in a slower aging from the relative perspective of another observer. As far as the light-traveller is concerned, he experiences normal time and aging.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Aging.. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2240342 - 01/13/04 10:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"What do you think about controlled starvation as an attempt to slow down cell aging? "

Well, it appears to have the potential to be effective, but I wouldn't go trying to starve yourself so that you can live longer. There are many other dangers that can come from a poor diet.


--------------------
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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Aging.. [Re: trendal]
    #2240353 - 01/13/04 10:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes.. So, how does this differentiation occur? Relative to the traveller, nothing special happens; but relative to the bystander, a change is evident..

Do you know the physics behind that? If it is too tedious to type, is there a link?


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Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Re: Aging.. [Re: Phluck]
    #2240354 - 01/13/04 10:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, caloric restriction is riding the very fine edge of real starvation.

It should never be practiced by anyone who has not finished puberty, or anyone who has wishes to have children (it severely cuts back reproductive abilities). Pregnant women would certainly kill their child, and any woman on caloric restriction might not even be able to get pregnant in the first place.

Also it isn't something that you can just wake up one day and decide to do...as you really would starve yourself to death. Your calorie intake has to be lowered gradually over time to allow your body to readjust to the lower intake.

There's a lot of other risks involved, but I think that for anyone past, say, 40-50 years of age the potential benefits could outweigh the downsides.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Re: Aging.. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2240384 - 01/13/04 10:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well according to the traveller, everything outside his ship slows down! As far as he is concerned (and as long as he is travelling at a constant velocity, NOT accelerating!) it is everyone else who is flying by him at near-lightspeed!

Welcome to the wonderful world of relativity :smirk:

As for why the time-dilation occurs...I'll try an analogy:

Imagine spacetime as a soccer field. Along one axis is the "spatial" dimension(s), and along the other axis is the "temporal" dimension(s). Now, we know there is a maximum velocity which you can travel through spacetime, and this velocity is the speed of light.

As it turns out, you always travel through SPACETIME at this velocity! You can never travel any slower through SPACETIME than the speed of light.

So, you ask, what does it mean if you aren't moving at all through the spatial dimensions? Well then you are moving through the temporal dimension at the speed of light! In this case you would be running straight down the sideline of our field (the temporal axis) without moving at all through the spatial axis (accross the field).

Now say you move away from the temporal axis, and start running in an angle accross the field. Now you are moving through BOTH space AND time. Because the magnitude of your velocity (speed) stays the same, and you are traveling accross the field diagonally, your speed through the temporal axis (sideline) is not the full speed of light anymore (some of your speed is transfered to moving sideways accross the field).

Now imagine you run straight accross the field, straight along the spatial axis. Again, the maximum speed you can travel in this direction is still only the speed of light...but now you are not travelling along the temporal axis at all! All of your speed is spent on travelling through the spatial dimension.

So: by moving through space, you have slowed your progress through time. By moving at the speed of light through space, you have effectively stopped your motion through time :smile:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Aging.. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2240519 - 01/14/04 01:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I've seen the posts on the biological effects of aging, but when I first saw the thread, I thought of "aging" in terms of chronological age and the experience that comes with aging.

If only I knew then what I know now...

I like getting older, because I like the knowledge that I acquire, which can only have built upon prior knowledge, which I can only have acquired by having lived.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Aging.. [Re: Frog]
    #2240525 - 01/14/04 01:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


If only I knew then what I know now...

I like getting older, because I like the knowledge that I acquire, which can only have built upon prior knowledge, which I can only have acquired by having lived.




What kind of knowledge are you speaking of? Aren't you still looking for the meaning of life?


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OfflineAnarkhos
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Re: Aging.. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2240549 - 01/14/04 01:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
What do you think about controlled starvation as an attempt to slow down cell aging?



You may NOT need to starve yourself to gain the benefits of caloric restriction.

Here is an article that addresses the topic.

Here's a PDF file that also discusses it (from the same author).


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Aging.. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2240555 - 01/14/04 01:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Decisions I made as a 20-year old won't be made as the 45-year old that I am now, because I have lived life 25 years more at this point. I have gained a lot of life experience. I have observed human nature in action a lot more since what I observed when I was 20.

I guess I am talking about what I have learned in this life so far, on a personal basis, not on a spiritual basis.

I woudn't do things now that I would have done at age 20. If I had had the mentality of a 45-year old at the time I was 20, I wouldn't have done the things I had done, then.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Aging.. [Re: Frog]
    #2240589 - 01/14/04 01:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Decisions I made as a 20-year old won't be made as the 45-year old that I am now, because I have lived life 25 years more at this point. I have gained a lot of life experience. I have observed human nature in action a lot more since what I observed when I was 20.





Do you think that the mistakes you have made in life have shaped your character, and if so, was it necessary to make them?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Aging.. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2240600 - 01/14/04 01:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes. Remember, I posted on another thread that I believe that I am here on this planet to be a lawyer, in order to help people.

If I had led a pristine life, how would I be able to help people? How would I be able to empathisize with their life's problems, especially in areas of family and criminal law?

I don't think the mistakes I made helped me to shape my character, in my own personal life. I think I would have been the person I am now, or maybe not. That's a rough one. I wouldn't be "me" now. Hmmm.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Aging.. [Re: Frog]
    #2240609 - 01/14/04 01:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This is a personal question...

I remember you posting something (maybe your graduation date?) that gave me the idea you were over 40...

Do you feel like you are the person you want to be? Are you getting closer with age? Are you any closer now to understanding who you are or why you are here? Like you said, you believe your purpose is help others, but why are you here?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Aging.. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2240631 - 01/14/04 02:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I am 45.

I am the person I want to be, right now, but I think I have more to learn.  Wait!!!  Let me clarify:  I am the person I want to be, but I want to work on the nuances. 

I think, at this point in my understanding of "why are we here", that my purpose for being here is to help people.  To be a lawyer. 

I think that God wants to help people.  He can't come down here, for whatever reasons, to do it Himself, so He works through us humans.  If I am an attorney, God can work through me to help people who need legal services. 

And ask all the personal questions that you want to ask.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Aging.. [Re: Anarkhos]
    #2240929 - 01/14/04 07:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You may NOT need to starve yourself to gain the benefits of caloric restriction.

Sorry I don't have time to check those links right now...but I'm going to assume you are looking at CR-mimicking drugs?

When using these drugs (should they ever become viable) the results are exactly the same as CR through controlled starvation...including all the downsides. The drugs actually cause starvation at a cellular level (by interfering with the ATP synthesis). You are still "starving" yourself, but in this case you are eating a lot of calories which are simply excreted by your body unused. You are wasting food, actually :smirk:

That's not to say CR-mimick drugs wouldn't be useful...


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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