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The Electric Sceptic Registered: 03/11/14 Posts: 1,736 |
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Hello,
Perhaps this thread is me attempting to inquire into what other people have to say on this issue, I'm not too sure on this myself and wanted some external input. Many human beings are brought up in a religion where there are set rules that you must follow, otherwise you are a sinner and a damned creature who will suffer everlasting pain and damnation - I admit, here I am dramatizing the way it is presented, but from an early age we are conditioned into believing in these so called sins and the hereafter. It seems absurd to me to put such fragile creatures into a cosmic battle between good and evil, to have this tiny little creature on a little rock ball, with all of its desires and hopes and dreams be the centre stage of a great cosmic battle, where we ourselves do not have a clue to our own true nature, or the true nature of the whole cosmos. I apologize if I am not making sense, I am still searching. Now I will use Islam primarily as an example because it is what I grew up with and have seen many peers exhibiting the same pattern. In islam many things are not allowed, such as pre-marital sex, alcohol, pork, even music/art, interactions with the opposite gender (so restricted that you are not even allowed to look at a woman); all free expression is forbidden. Now I have seen close friends who I love dearly, I do not mean to judge them I am making an observation, deny all of this sins and participate in them - to then go and submit their will to the religion completely - but why? I don't want to impose any ideas on my friends or for them to believe in anything I do, I just feel that they are denying their authenticity, their chance to enjoy life by limiting themselves - I am trying to come from an empathetic place. (Let it be noted that I don't think that I am a messiah that has all the answers to the problem of being). In fact, some of my closest friends have spoken against the fact that I question Islam and want to inquire into the universe and science etc... Is religion ultimately the cause of duplicity in many human beings, to somehow related to it? Is religion merely used to suppress and manifest fear in people? Is religion used to deny people their authenticity? But why use fear? Why do people revert back to something they think they SHOULD believe in, rather than having true faith? Because if you really BELIEVED in Allah and Muhammad's great message you would be absolutely terrified at your every action, your every thought. What are your opinions or questions on this issue? Thank you for taking the time to read and reply if you do. Peace --------------------
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Humble Student Registered: 11/30/11 Posts: 26,088 Loc: Deep in the syst |
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I think the reason behind it all is very pure and simple man; it's about control.
I empathise with all the points you have raised and am in complete agreement - I am baffled as to why people follow this stuff. But then, if it really is about control; those in control have found a sure fire method that works on the average human! -------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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The Electric Sceptic Registered: 03/11/14 Posts: 1,736 |
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Thank you for replying, I appreciate your comment.
I agree. I think it is strange indeed that people who are brought up in religion feel that it is necessary to have an external supreme God/King to explain their being. It is a grotesque method, that actually works, where by you label the universe as an object that resulted from creation and so the will of the universe is the will of God. I think this idea of the individual will being the will of God is what makes people submit, because they think that it is through the will of Allah that we are here and nothing else. I have seen intelligent friends fall for this trap, they question all of it and are inquisitive minds - they ask deep existential questions and yet the duplicity comes forth, where ultimately Allah is the 'one true one'. I am not an apologist but I try to be compassionate with high religious people, I think to myself, all those people who suffer, make sense of their suffering through God and thus would try to explain the universe in the same way to their children, so perpetuating the cycle. What baffles me is how is it possible that in such a day and age where we have all of these new ideas proliferating thanks to the scientific method, that people can still be/or let themselves be controlled by these outdated ideologies. Some people obviously know it is a method of control, yet they still submit? --------------------
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some kinda love Registered: 01/02/10 Posts: 6,799 |
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idk the answers man.. i think religion can be really toxic.. but i am not sure what the better answer to how to live your life is... i think being open and questioning things is really valuable tho, even if it alienates you from others you love.. i think empathising with them and respecting their choices too is important to allowing you the freedom to follow your own.
there are so many things in our world about how people treat and relate to each other that seem bad or broken or could be better.. but creating an alternative is not easy and can't be done alone. for people who are making do, making the best out of a shitty situation i applaud you, as i do those who are searching for more. and so it goes. seems life has been mostly shitty for as long as it has been around.. shitty with some streaks of brilliance every now and then
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Stranger Registered: 03/14/04 Posts: 4,828 |
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Most humans do not really think.
They think that they think. Note: language is tricky, in the sentence above "think" has 2 different meanings; we are not necessarily taught about this. Even those who see that others don't really think, may find this frightening, because it must mean they too are more limited than they want to believe, and that their friends are not as wonderful as they would like them to be. And in fact humans in general are not so special. We are all so vain. If humans were ruled by reason, advertising would not work. The lottery would not earn money, people wouldn't 'play' slot machines, they wouldn't become boxers or football players, if they were reasonable. Opera and soap opera and most movies have little intellectual content. However if you tell humans they don't think, they will become angry (totally unaware that by doing so they are proving the contrary of what they wish to). So in the far east they say: He who knows does not speak, and he who speaks does not know. Humans are conditioned, to believe they are the animals with the largest brains, and therefore the most intelligent, logical, and wise. But human reason is a small part of the organism's brain function contained in a much larger organ most of whose programing is instinctual and emotional. Digestion, sleep, walking, breathing/carbon dioxide level, blood sugar balance, growth, sensing perception, etc.--all are controlled by the unconscious instinctual animal part of the brain. Even talking itself is largely unconscious. We don't really know how we find the right words, at the right time, to make, sense, when talking. And talking is a large part of thinking. The surprising conclusion would seem to be that thinking is largely unconscious. However if we consider dreams, it becomes obvious that the unconscious mind can regulate thinking quite effectively. A strange aspect of the conscious thinking process while 'awake', is that the aware aspect of self tends to identify with the thought process. We tell ourselves stories about who we are and take these stories to be truth. Some mystics, seem to suggest that there are 2 selves, and that these stories are a false self, and the true self is more like intangible awareness, or the void. So much meditative practice deals with loosening interest and belief in 'our' thoughts. Many of the thoughts we have, were acquired while young and impressionable from parents, teachers, religious leaders, peers, and bosses. They are mixed with our personal and social habits. These authorities had to domesticate us from the biting, screaming, wild children we once were. But they over did their jobs and as adults the majority of people are so over conditioned they don't have a clue. On top of this we have biological reproductive programing which has managed to cover the poor earth with billions of humans, (with their cities, wars, and pollution). Except for a few monks and nuns we are at core hormone junkies. Sexual motivation is influenced by hormones such as Dopamine, testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, oxytocin, and vasopressin. But we like to tell ourselves stories, about ourselves, purpose, meaning, morality, and anything else that sounds lofty and pure and noble and admirable. But I doubt the earth is fooled. ----------------------- http://www.adsavvy.org/understan QUOTE: "Researchers at Leeds University, led by Prof Jens Krause, performed a series of experiments where volunteers were told to randomly walk around a large hall without talking to each other. A select few were then given more detailed instructions on where to walk. The scientists discovered that people end up blindly following one or two people who appear to know where they’re going. The published results showed that it only takes 5% of what the scientists called “informed individuals” to influence the direction of a crowd of around 200 people. The remaining 95% follow without even realizing it. “There are strong parallels with animal grouping behavior,” says Prof Krause, who reported his study with John Dyer in the Animal Behavior Journal. “We’ve all been in situations where we get swept along by the crowd but what’s interesting about this research is that our participants ended up making a consensus decision despite the fact that they weren’t allowed to talk or gesture to one another… In most cases the participants didn’t realize they were being led by others.” This is excellent example of how the human brain is setup for social life. Even without a top-down organizer or any obvious rules, society just falls into place. Unfortunately, that “follow the herd” mentality isn’t always beneficial. If we’re not fully versed on a subject, we tend to follow the guy who appears to know more than we do. That sort of behavior applies to more than just random walking, we do it in everyday life from picking political candidates to deciding what type of car to buy." UNQUOTE
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The Electric Sceptic Registered: 03/11/14 Posts: 1,736 |
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Thank you very much for taking the time to reply in such detail - it helps me to weigh my own personal philosophical issues.
I have (funnily enough) thought about what you have said and agree with most of what you are saying. Of course this is my own perspective. I think you are right to say that most humans don't think, I think that we are locked in a momentum of symbolic behaviour. The cosmos exists without symbols (as experience) and it is the human which attaches meaning to it. What intrigues me however is the fact that the religious ideals are thought to be universal-even if the thoughts that we have are nonsense for the most part, I think there is enough room to or should be enough room to think for oneself - rather than to succumb to an ideology and playing tricks on yourself to get yourself to believe in unreasonable things. ( I Know because I do this myself ) and family members try to impose the same ideologies onto me. For example, some Muslims tend to attach meaning seriously banal things or find Allah's coincidences/miracles.Here is a video of such: Note: Skip to about 20 seconds to see the 'miracle'. Now I don't know what to make of this because, essentially I am trying to sever myself from Islam but it is things like this which make me go insane. I may not make sense but I will try to in the next paragraph. You are correct to say that we are conditioned because of the way human beings are - we are evolved primates and programmable. I have felt this to be true in myself (this is why I am here trying to find opinions to these questions I have), many parts of my own psyche conflict as to the 'real truth' and often I have told myself that Islam is true because of 'evidence' presented above but then I look at the cosmic absurdity of being human and think to myself - what is the point of heaven? What would ultimately be the point of Jannah? Where if I do good deeds on this earth I will get all the wine and women of my liking. I find it self defeating because what would be the point of having infinite wives for eternity - seems kind of pointless to me personally. Plus, I'm gay and that's wrong in Islam, so err... what about me? If I were to 'be good' and marry a woman and complete my 'deen'... Would I get infinite beautiful men in Heaven? Seems kind of pointless for me to go to heaven where there are infinite beautiful women and I'm not even attracted to them...unless Allah can 'fix' that for me...and yet again it seems to me to be pointless because...what is the point in the first place? Essentially I'm trying to break free of this mental burden but I find that it is deep within my body memory - so I am still seeking to remove it - and attempting to live a more authentic life. Peace
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/08 Posts: 8,292 Loc: Manchester, UK Last seen: 4 years, 7 months |
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Quote: Any rigid belief system hates its members asking questions. Any authoritarian organization hate questions. Why? because it threatens their rigid system, and they also worry that such questioning will 'corrupt' their organization, and of course their elite status as leaders of it, and others who are followers will police questioners like your friends are doing yes these dualistic beliefs are intending to suppress and make you fearful. Fear is how they control you. This can be seen in ALL organizations based on mind control including ancient cults, religions, and into the secular world. Advertising and propaganda is based on the formula of inducing fear and then promising a 'solution'. With this formula they can convince you you lack something, and they know how to help you resolve this 'lack' The old patriarchal religions are some of the oldest forms of this mindcontrol. they will tell you from being little you are full of sin/FEAR but if you obey and follow their authority you will gain heaven/'SOLUTION'. of course this is suppression, because you are not allowed to question, and have natural freedom to explore the wonderful living and changing mystery of life!
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/08 Posts: 8,292 Loc: Manchester, UK Last seen: 4 years, 7 months |
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Quote: I am gay too! yesterday I watched a TV documentary called 'How Gay is Pakistan' which had a guy who had been born in Pakistan whose now English and is gay go there and experience the homophobia there. One Mullah (?) the gay presenter went to interview told him that he had an illness, and needed herbs to cure him. So the presenter humoured this old fool with a beard, and even took the 'medication'. But it all really a joke amd just absolute ignorance See. this who poemise of women in heaven is EXACTLY what I pointed out in previous post. This is how mind control works. I know it may be difficult for you to dig that Islam is a massive mind control cult, but just because of the numbers of people involved don't be fooled. Just look at what they do. it is the same formula. Make believers fearful about how they really are naturally, and about the natural world, and then promise them some reward in a 'supernatural' world. THAT you are supposed to just not question and believe in. Quote: Them trust me, and stick with this thread. I know exactly the fear you feel. Well not 'exactly' because you are unique. But what I mean is, I know how deep these mind control beliefs can go. This is why I am always researching it, because I am aware how prevalent it is in this world. Not JUST organized religions like Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc etc, but also in the secular world, for example scientism, the belief in the State and so on. The good nesws is you realize that this stuff does go deep. That is a VERY VERY big first step. because many others will deny they are even mind controlled, and that they have a rpboem. it is similar to someone addicted to something. The first thing people need to do is be aware they have a problem! have you ever had psychedelic experience?
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The Electric Sceptic Registered: 03/11/14 Posts: 1,736 |
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Quote: Thank you for replying to my thread, it is helping me a lot to see a lot more clearly. You are absolutely right! The core of Islam is paganistic (funny though - Islam has pagan and symbolic worship like the one it advises against ) it is also authoritarian and patriarchal like you have stated - I have started to see this and it is culturally bound, although they would like to think their religion is 'cosmic' in scale and the entire universe was created for Muhammad - it is interesting and (silly) to state such a thing, because Muhammad didn't have his 'revelations' till he was nearly 40. I think the truth is within the contradictions themselves.Islam is extremely clever with its hypnotic hold on people, its roots run deep into the human psyche - the programming begins early - at age 0, where they will sing all sorts of Islamic prayers onto the human child in order to assure that this human being IS and WILL stay muslim - not realising that there is a whole world of experiences out there. I have felt this deeply, yet it is so hard to explain but I will try. The fear is within my every action it seems, however I interact with the world - the voice will come up and say to me that it is all about Islam, it will find coincidences in the universe which absolutely say that Allah is the 'one true one' - then I realise I am fooling myself. I have had arguments with people in my family, their arguments consisted of telling me how distorted and diseased my mental health is that I could even THINK about believing in evolution - or to even question the validity of the quran. It seems as if I am forbidden, totally obstructed from choosing to remove myself from the identity given to me by others. This is sounding like a rant now instead of critical analysis so I shall stop here. Quote: I watched the beginning of that documentary yesterday myself but did not get to watch the whole thing but with regards to it being an illness I often ask myself - is this a test by 'Allah'? Which is the most debilitating thing, because I know it is all mind control, I know (intuitively) that is is patriarchal oppression. It CAN be difficult to break free of this situation - because the same arguments that are used is that everyone is converting to islam - which seems absurd because the masses do not define what is true - they only define what is THOUGHT to be true - hopefully that makes sense. Quote: I am resonating with all of what you are saying and it is helpful to know there are people who understand this mental burden. And no... ![]() I haven't had a full on psychedelic experience as it is difficult to obtain - due to the fact that most psychedelics are class A controlled substances. I have smoked a lot of cannabis, I have tried salvia and lsa - but never the boundary dissolving substances. I feel however that I am ready and want to try. --------------------
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/08 Posts: 8,292 Loc: Manchester, UK Last seen: 4 years, 7 months |
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Quote: it is not called mindcontrol for nothing. it is better t be called bodymind control, because it affects the whole person, body and mind. it affects how you move, etc, like you are saying. Most important thing them is to become aware of this which you are doing, because the power of mindcontrol is that it becomes un-conscious. hence if we become more and more aware of it, even though this may at first feel uncomfortable, we're beginning to undermine the spell it has over us. Like you say, with religions like Islam which is part of the very culture, they get you aged 0. So that is a lot of stuff. Stay strong and keep questioning. I realize you are getting pressure from friends and family. That is typical. They are also mindcontrolled, and they will try to 'save' you, because there is great fear in that belief of becoming an 'apostate' as there was in Christianity when it was the main power structure for many. I mean they freaking burnt 'heretics' at the stake etc. You are not forbidden. The only thing which will 'forbid' you is your own thinking it so. If you keep questioning and feeling like it is wrong and oppressive, you will naturally beging creativley exploring in a larger field of awareness...OUT of the box of Islamic fundamentalism Quote: If you can watch the whole documentary. Did you stop watching it because you felt disturbed watching it? The roots of homophobia is patriarchal dualistic thinking which hates ambiguity. its mythology is light in conflict with darkness, the masculine in conflict with the feminine, spirit versus nature, life versus death, good versus evil. Where a 'man' MUST be a man and a 'woman' MUST be a woman. This is why they fear the 'effeminate' and/or transgender type of gay more than anything. It repulses their worldview. They see it as chaos bla bla. And yet these so-called opposites are not really opposed but dynamic processes with potential diversity. So to see through this patriarchal thinking is to embrace the diversity of life; its creative energies. Don't try and suppress them because this just makes life static and conformist and dead. Quote: Yeah, I have never been persuaded by numbers. The idea that because eg millions do something it must be true. Not really. Often just one person is against a collective insane move to go to war which is all based on lies, and out of that mass conformity all kinds of evil shit happens, but it is later showed that person, and few persons were right. So it is better to be true to yourself than follow the herd if you question its motives Quote: I do. I will never totally understand yours nor you mine because we are unique, but we get the gist, right? Quote: In my experience the psychedelics are amazing for resolving years long ingrained mindcontrol. You suddenly see deeper into what is going on, and often this is accompanied by cosmic laughter which is a good sign you are loosening up. All the stress is being released in shuddering cosmic giggles of ecstasy. You must try magic mushrooms if you can Enjoy being you. You as naturally inquisitive, and gay, and full of life
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/08 Posts: 8,292 Loc: Manchester, UK Last seen: 4 years, 7 months |
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I encourage you to carry around a little notepad and pen, and if you get ideas to search online to encourage you then jot it down and use the Internet as it should be--a VAST dynamic information resource which inspires questioning--freedom of learning and interaction. This is what I do
I was looking to see if there is anything about 'recovering Muslims'. I know there is similar for 'recovering Catholics' and 'recovering racists' etc. I did find this about a book it would be maybe interesting for you to checkout. So you know you are not alone: Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out
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The Electric Sceptic Registered: 03/11/14 Posts: 1,736 |
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Thank you for replying and giving me the suggestion for that book. I have been trying hard to leave Islam, hopefully it has something in it I can use to rid myself of this heavy burden. I still question, I am still looking, I am only twenty and still searching for what the 'truth' is - well age is just a number anyway
And I suppose you are right - I think we may only understand each other based on our own experiences, we can never truly feel the true authentic experience of another human being. As far as that goes, I think we each are as mysterious to ourselves as we are to each other. I have been interested in ecstatic experience - whether that is natural or induced by a psychedelic. I am quite susceptible to any form of psychoactive substance - I have experienced minor ecstasy on very high doses of cannabis. In fact it was cannabis that made me question the reality of reality . but I am waiting for the day where I can completely dissolve my ego to see who I really am, for what I really am.I think that we as human beings are just beginning to understand the true mystery of the cosmos, our home, our vantage point deeply embedded between this infinite universe, this knowledge and the fact that we even exist I think fills the body with ecstasy, the transience of being human - causes liberation or should cause liberation - death shouldn't be used to suppress us and tell us that we are here in a cosmic test - where if we fail, we shall suffer in an eternal fire for ever and ever and ever. It seems pointless to me. These are just my opinions however. Thank you again! Peace
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Humble Student Registered: 11/30/11 Posts: 26,088 Loc: Deep in the syst |
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Quote: It strikes me that this is occurring more rapidly only as we free ourself from the bonds of organised religion. -------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/08 Posts: 8,292 Loc: Manchester, UK Last seen: 4 years, 7 months |
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Quote: I am composing a blog where I talk about ecstasy. This is a definition of the term I like: Quote: This then has you exploring what do we mean by 'normal identity'? Is it the persona which has been in-formed by the culture we are brought up in? Where we're supposed to think and feel certain ways. Yeah, I would say so. That might even include such as 'I like this kind of music and don't like that kind' 'I like this kind of food and not that' etc etc. Ec-stasy liberates you from established patterns of thinking and feeling, and then later, post experience, we have embraced a far broader experience which is integrated into our life Of course this doesn't mean you lose the core of yourself. Ie that if your gay you will suddenyl fancy women. There's a funny story of Timothy Leary who was a bit of a homophobe, trying out his psychological conditioning-cum-LSD techniques of 'imprinting' on his gay friend, Richard Alpert, to try and make him 'straight', but all that happened was he became more bisexual ![]() Quote: I encourage that in myself. I DO feel ecstatic when walking about looking at nature, and key things needs for this is sense of humour. A sense of surrealist interplay with things, and play generally, and open sexuality. All the things that oppressive organization try and suppress! From that sorry mindSET comes the warning of the tyrant's dungeon where you are tortured for ever and ever and ever and lol I mean it has their name written all over that shit ![]() Oh by the way, also checout others who have come out in different oppressive religions etc like this
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The Electric Sceptic Registered: 03/11/14 Posts: 1,736 |
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Quote: I think it is because more people are realising that the ideas we use to describe the reality of the cosmos are inadequate to the true size and absurdity of the cosmos. It is a mind boggling situation we are in and I think authoritarian, anthropocentric religions are beginning to realise that the idea of humans being the centre of all things is misleading because if you JUST LOOK UP you will be baffled and humbled by all of this. I thank Carl Sagan for these ideas We are in a strange situation indeed. Living, thinking, feeling beings on a little rock ball around a ball of fire millions of times bigger than this planet. The fire is so hot that it would eradicate all of us in an instant if we were to get closer but it is fundamental to our existence as human beings, floating in what seems to be in nothingness, which is part of a web of galaxies that are much bigger than we can even imagine. It is crucial that we don't go to the extreme with this description of human beings in contrast to the environment around it because it can seem (like in the description above) that because we are incredibly small we are insignificant, being small does not imply that something is more or less important in comparison to the thing bigger than it. If we think in this way this can be used to actually employ a similar kind of 'religious' oppression that the monotheistic religions exercise. --------------------
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/08 Posts: 8,292 Loc: Manchester, UK Last seen: 4 years, 7 months |
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Completely agree with you, and funnily enough I have been getting into looking at videos about the mindblowing vastness of this universe. it just makes me giggle like on shrooms it is so mindblowing. And I play with it when I am walking about in nature or sitting in nature. IE I will imagine me from a birds-eye view and zoom out and see the location I am walking in get smaller and then out out out , and then begin zooming in again, and this time go more and more into the subatomic, and I imagine what it would be like to explore this tripping
The other day, it was sunny and I was watching this tiny tiny little insect hovering and flying about and I was thinking the comparison btween it and planets, and galaxies and the universe, and I like you saw that this 'whose bigger = better' trip is dumbfck stupid. All that is part of the old way of thinking I reckon Edited by zzripz (10/30/15 11:17 AM)
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The Electric Sceptic Registered: 03/11/14 Posts: 1,736 |
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Yeah I think size is unrelated to significance, it is an anthropic idea to assume that what is bigger must be better. You are correct, it is a problem with the old way of thinking about things.
We've always been told to have 'common sense' or we say to children 'have some common sense', which is an absurd thing to say to a child or to anyone because what is regarded or can be regarded as 'common' is all culturally relative. In this case it is a problem of an old way of thinking. I hope new cultures arise to oppose religious fundementalism or fundementalist zeal in general but I think for anything to change we need to evolve our language and our simple assumptions about reality. --------------------
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Stranger Registered: 03/14/04 Posts: 4,828 |
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If you have access to the internet where you can watch videos without family interfering you might find putting in Sam Harris name helpful.
Also Richard Dawkins.
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Stranger Registered: 12/23/08 Posts: 8,292 Loc: Manchester, UK Last seen: 4 years, 7 months |
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Quote: They are fundamentalists!
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Stranger Registered: 03/14/04 Posts: 4,828 |
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Quote: it seems when you feel offended, you go on the offense and denounce in a rather dogmatic manner, doing exactly what you accuse others of ... chill dude ...
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) and family members try to impose the same ideologies onto me. For example, some Muslims tend to attach meaning seriously banal things or find Allah's coincidences/miracles.
) it is also authoritarian and patriarchal like you have stated - I have started to see this and it is culturally bound, although they would like to think their religion is 'cosmic' in scale and the entire universe was created for Muhammad - it is interesting and (silly) to state such a thing, because Muhammad didn't have his 'revelations' till he was nearly 40. I think the truth is within the contradictions themselves.


