|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 21 minutes
|
|
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence. Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it. At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.
People earning minimum wage will never save any money even at $15 per hour. The living wage in my state just came out this week- $19 per hour.
Then keep cranking it up. I'd do it slowly to give the new money time to enter the economy before cranking it up more.
I've been through minimum wage hikes, and it seems like the costs of goods and services go up right up with them
That's not really true. The cost goes up very slightly for almost everything. The cost of producing the vast majority of things is tied more into overhead expense than labor expense.
When it comes down to it, CEO's can take a pay cut to pay employees right with no detrimental effect on production cost for all major industries. Increased flow of capital increases patronage to small businesses, so they are not hindered by the wage hike either. This has been studied.
Now, there is a limit of course, and there are ways to determine a reasonable minimum wage. Also, a wage hike can be eased into, instead of an instantaneous doubling of wages.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 5 hours, 33 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence. Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it. At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.
People earning minimum wage will never save any money even at $15 per hour. The living wage in my state just came out this week- $19 per hour.
Then keep cranking it up. I'd do it slowly to give the new money time to enter the economy before cranking it up more.
What happens when the employer can't afford it? Less hours, less workers, potentially not being able to afford to stay in business.
Do you realize how many small businesses are still on life support since 2008? Lots, this so called recovery never entered onto Main Street, that's why wages haven't moved higher naturally, the economic prosperity isn't there.
Can global corporations like Wal-Mart and McDonald's afford it? Yes, but not everyone else.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 21 minutes
|
Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22428888 - 10/24/15 07:17 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence. Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it. At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.
People earning minimum wage will never save any money even at $15 per hour. The living wage in my state just came out this week- $19 per hour.
Then keep cranking it up. I'd do it slowly to give the new money time to enter the economy before cranking it up more.
What happens when the employer can't afford it? Less hours, less workers, potentially not being able to afford to stay in business.
Do you realize how many small businesses are still on life support since 2008? Lots, this so called recovery never entered onto Main Street, that's why wages haven't moved higher naturally, the economic prosperity isn't there.
Can global corporations like Wal-Mart and McDonald's afford it? Yes, but not everyone else.
I believe Seattle is one of the fastest growing cities in the country, regardless of their recent steep minimum wage hike.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 5 hours, 33 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence. Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it. At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.
People earning minimum wage will never save any money even at $15 per hour. The living wage in my state just came out this week- $19 per hour.
Then keep cranking it up. I'd do it slowly to give the new money time to enter the economy before cranking it up more.
What happens when the employer can't afford it? Less hours, less workers, potentially not being able to afford to stay in business.
Do you realize how many small businesses are still on life support since 2008? Lots, this so called recovery never entered onto Main Street, that's why wages haven't moved higher naturally, the economic prosperity isn't there.
Can global corporations like Wal-Mart and McDonald's afford it? Yes, but not everyone else.
I believe Seattle is one of the fastest growing cities in the country, regardless of their recent steep minimum wage hike.
Congrats to Seattle, what about the rest of the country? Seattle is kind of unique economically.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 21 minutes
|
Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22428950 - 10/24/15 07:28 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence. Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it. At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.
People earning minimum wage will never save any money even at $15 per hour. The living wage in my state just came out this week- $19 per hour.
Then keep cranking it up. I'd do it slowly to give the new money time to enter the economy before cranking it up more.
What happens when the employer can't afford it? Less hours, less workers, potentially not being able to afford to stay in business.
Do you realize how many small businesses are still on life support since 2008? Lots, this so called recovery never entered onto Main Street, that's why wages haven't moved higher naturally, the economic prosperity isn't there.
Can global corporations like Wal-Mart and McDonald's afford it? Yes, but not everyone else.
I believe Seattle is one of the fastest growing cities in the country, regardless of their recent steep minimum wage hike.
Congrats to Seattle, what about the rest of the country? Seattle is kind of unique economically.
I think most of the country would be just fine, but the way Seattle is doing it is a very good approach. They are giving small businesses several years longer to meet the minimum wage requirements. That way by the time they have to increase wages they will have received the benefits of increased patronage for several years.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 5 hours, 33 minutes
|
|
You really didn't address any of the scenarios I mentioned, it's not so simple to say everywhere will be just fine. Cities like Seattle and San Francisco are different and aren't really good examples of success.
Try it in Cleveland, Detroit, Baltimore, and the hundreds of other dying shit holes inside the US and see what happens.
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22429078 - 10/24/15 07:50 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I guess the leftists want only the big stores to survive like walmart, google, Monsanto. They don't care about the little guy who is trying to make a living in business.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 5 hours, 33 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Stonehenge said: I guess the leftists want only the big stores to survive like walmart, google, Monsanto. They don't care about the little guy who is trying to make a living in business.
The large corporations have little issue with the higher minimum wage, less competition will result and create more market share offsetting the higher labor costs, they ain't stupid.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 21 minutes
|
Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22429174 - 10/24/15 08:06 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: I guess the leftists want only the big stores to survive like walmart, google, Monsanto. They don't care about the little guy who is trying to make a living in business.
The large corporations have little issue with the higher minimum wage, less competition will result and create more market share offsetting the higher labor costs, they ain't stupid.
I actually think they will have more competition, because more people would have expendible money to start their own businesses, and there would be more people with money to spend at places other than walmart. These days most people cant afford to take their business anywhere else.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 5 hours, 33 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: I guess the leftists want only the big stores to survive like walmart, google, Monsanto. They don't care about the little guy who is trying to make a living in business.
The large corporations have little issue with the higher minimum wage, less competition will result and create more market share offsetting the higher labor costs, they ain't stupid.
I actually think they will have more competition, because more people would have expendible money to start their own businesses, and there would be more people with money to spend at places other than walmart. These days most people cant afford to take their business anywhere else.
That's pie in the sky, new businesses requite new capital and that isn't going happen, and guess what? They have to pay their workers high wages, who wants that take on that fiscal risk? McDonald's doesn't give a shit, they diversified all over the globe.
Making an extra $120 buck per week doesn't open up the world of entrepreneurship for Joe Six-Pack and friends. It lets them have a roof over their head and a car to drive to work, that's all.
|
hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22429324 - 10/24/15 08:35 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
People don't start businesses from scratch anymore, investors are usually required, whether from a chain, or just people wanting to get in on a startup, or investor groups, Bain Capitol comes to mind, lol
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 21 minutes
|
Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22429336 - 10/24/15 08:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: I guess the leftists want only the big stores to survive like walmart, google, Monsanto. They don't care about the little guy who is trying to make a living in business.
The large corporations have little issue with the higher minimum wage, less competition will result and create more market share offsetting the higher labor costs, they ain't stupid.
I actually think they will have more competition, because more people would have expendible money to start their own businesses, and there would be more people with money to spend at places other than walmart. These days most people cant afford to take their business anywhere else.
That's pie in the sky, new businesses requite new capital and that isn't going happen, and guess what? They have to pay their workers high wages, who wants that take on that fiscal risk? McDonald's doesn't give a shit, they diversified all over the globe.
Making an extra $120 buck per week doesn't open up the world of entrepreneurship for Joe Six-Pack and friends. It lets them have a roof over their head and a car to drive to work, that's all.
Joe six pack and friends can invest together, and companies are more likely to succeed, because people have more money to spend at small businesses.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
|
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: I've been through minimum wage hikes, and it seems like the costs of goods and services go up right up with them
And we know exactly by how much. The libertarian CATO Institute showed that "a 10 percent increase in the U.S. minimum wage raises food prices by up to 4 percent and overall prices by up to 0.4 percent." That's a bargain for low paid workers.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
|
Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: I've been through minimum wage hikes, and it seems like the costs of goods and services go up right up with them
Of course they do, that's why it never works. If it worked, the whole world would have a high min wage and be prosperous. But it doesn't work except in the fantasies of liberals.
Actually, empirical evidence shows it does work. That's why I'm surprised conservatives keep fighting it.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22429852 - 10/24/15 10:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said: What happens when the employer can't afford it? Less hours, less workers, potentially not being able to afford to stay in business.
Most businesses would see in increase in revenue due to more people spending more money. We don't have any evidence of a long term decrease in employment due to increasing minimum wage.
Quote:
qman said: Do you realize how many small businesses are still on life support since 2008? Lots, this so called recovery never entered onto Main Street, that's why wages haven't moved higher naturally, the economic prosperity isn't there.
If I own a restaurant (for example) I would get a lot more business if more people had more money to go out and eat. It would be good for my business, so I could afford the increase.
Look, our country did great with a higher minimum wage (adjusted for inflation). We should do it again.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 21 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: What happens when the employer can't afford it? Less hours, less workers, potentially not being able to afford to stay in business.
Most businesses would see in increase in revenue due to more people spending more money. We don't have any evidence of a long term decrease in employment due to increasing minimum wage.
Quote:
qman said: Do you realize how many small businesses are still on life support since 2008? Lots, this so called recovery never entered onto Main Street, that's why wages haven't moved higher naturally, the economic prosperity isn't there.
If I own a restaurant (for example) I would get a lot more business if more people had more money to go out and eat. It would be good for my business, so I could afford the increase.
Look, our country did great with a higher minimum wage (adjusted for inflation). We should do it again.

-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 5 hours, 33 minutes
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: What happens when the employer can't afford it? Less hours, less workers, potentially not being able to afford to stay in business.
Most businesses would see in increase in revenue due to more people spending more money. We don't have any evidence of a long term decrease in employment due to increasing minimum wage.
Quote:
qman said: Do you realize how many small businesses are still on life support since 2008? Lots, this so called recovery never entered onto Main Street, that's why wages haven't moved higher naturally, the economic prosperity isn't there.
If I own a restaurant (for example) I would get a lot more business if more people had more money to go out and eat. It would be good for my business, so I could afford the increase.
Look, our country did great with a higher minimum wage (adjusted for inflation). We should do it again.
Of course our country did great with a real higher minimum wage, but there was a big structural difference, a naturally tighter labor market!! We don't have that today, therefore we have a unemployment and wage problem, that can NOT be fixed just be mandating a higher minimum wage, if it were only so simple.
We need more jobs, more jobs solves everything, Also, we need less workers (illegals). You can NOT create economic prosperity be mandating a higher minimum wage.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22431059 - 10/25/15 09:24 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
You say we need more jobs. But what creates more jobs? More demand. How do we get more demand? One way is for people to have more money to spend.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 3 hours, 21 minutes
|
Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22431093 - 10/25/15 09:36 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: What happens when the employer can't afford it? Less hours, less workers, potentially not being able to afford to stay in business.
Most businesses would see in increase in revenue due to more people spending more money. We don't have any evidence of a long term decrease in employment due to increasing minimum wage.
Quote:
qman said: Do you realize how many small businesses are still on life support since 2008? Lots, this so called recovery never entered onto Main Street, that's why wages haven't moved higher naturally, the economic prosperity isn't there.
If I own a restaurant (for example) I would get a lot more business if more people had more money to go out and eat. It would be good for my business, so I could afford the increase.
Look, our country did great with a higher minimum wage (adjusted for inflation). We should do it again.
Of course our country did great with a real higher minimum wage, but there was a big structural difference, a naturally tighter labor market!! We don't have that today, therefore we have a unemployment and wage problem, that can NOT be fixed just be mandating a higher minimum wage, if it were only so simple.
We need more jobs, more jobs solves everything, Also, we need less workers (illegals). You can NOT create economic prosperity be mandating a higher minimum wage.
Bernie wants to spend $1 Trillion creating jobs repairing infrastructure. That's the beauty of Socialist principles. Where Capitalism fails, the government picks up the slack. With all of those government jobs the labor market will tighten up quick. He's also not one of these Democrats who believes we should open the flood gates for immigrants.
I agree with you 100% qman, that the minimum wage is not some quick fix for the wage gap. I do believe, as do you, I think, that the minimum wage needs to be raised, and it will be beneficial for some people, for now. More has to be done though.
The best way for government to fix the problem is to play the role that business is not fulfilling, without trying to control business in 50 different ways. The government can create jobs, and businesses will be forced to face a tighter labor market, which will correct the problems organically.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (10/25/15 09:41 AM)
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: I've been through minimum wage hikes, and it seems like the costs of goods and services go up right up with them
Of course they do, that's why it never works. If it worked, the whole world would have a high min wage and be prosperous. But it doesn't work except in the fantasies of liberals.
Actually, empirical evidence shows it does work. That's why I'm surprised conservatives keep fighting it.
Fal, how can you actually believe that loony stuff? Time to put down the liberal crack pipe for a moment and sober up. Some opinion piece or article with cherry picked statistics proves nothing. If it works why don't all the poor countries do it and pull themselves up? Because it doesn't work, not there and not here.
If you believe your own post, you should be sending emails to the leaders of mexico, Pakistan, south America, etc informing them of how to improve the lives of their people. No doubt they never thought of just raising the min and will thank you for suggesting it.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
|