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hostileuniverse
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How about YOU quit repeating YOUR BS? If the only tax I paid was "federal income tax" I'd be a happy camper, but go ahead and throw in all the other taxes that even the poor are forced to pay and you would see a much different picture, derp
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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The poor get more in benefits than they pay in taxes. You want to take that away?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The poor get more in benefits than they pay in taxes. You want to take that away?
Take away? No. Trim? Fuck yeah, there is simply no reason for us middle class Americans to be paying as much as we do
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qman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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qman said:
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paperbackwriter said: raising minimum wage increases unemployment in the short term but creates more economic flow and more jobs in the long term.
Higher wages from a naturally tighter labor market can create more economic activity, artificially mandating higher wages with a excess pool of labor will NOT create more jobs.
I agree with paperbackwriter - what's your source for that? There's plenty of data saying it helps long term, and logically it makes sense that things are better when there's less poverty and more money for people to spend.
"data saying it helps long term"
What helps? The higher the minimum wage the more economic prosperity? Let's hike to $17 per hour or is there a ceiling to this magic formula?
"makes sense that things are better when there's less poverty and more money for people to spend"
True, but the debate is whether the higher the minimum wage the MORE jobs are created. Again, if this was the magic formula, why doesn't all 2nd and 3rd world economies just crank up their minimum wage!! Or even the depressed 1st world economies like Japan and the EU?
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22423887 - 10/23/15 05:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The poor get more in benefits than they pay in taxes. You want to take that away?
And I do know this, if those in the top ten percent even that love all these big govt programs would cut a check to the govt for say
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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qman said:
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paperbackwriter said: raising minimum wage increases unemployment in the short term but creates more economic flow and more jobs in the long term.
Higher wages from a naturally tighter labor market can create more economic activity, artificially mandating higher wages with a excess pool of labor will NOT create more jobs.
I agree with paperbackwriter - what's your source for that? There's plenty of data saying it helps long term, and logically it makes sense that things are better when there's less poverty and more money for people to spend.
"data saying it helps long term"
What helps? The higher the minimum wage the more economic prosperity? Let's hike to $17 per hour or is there a ceiling to this magic formula?
"makes sense that things are better when there's less poverty and more money for people to spend"
True, but the debate is whether the higher the minimum wage the MORE jobs are created. Again, if this was the magic formula, why doesn't all 2nd and 3rd world economies just crank up their minimum wage!! Or even the depressed 1st world economies like Japan and the EU?
Well exactly, like job creation happened in spite of Obama policies, not because of them, the statists fail to see the difference
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said:
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paperbackwriter said: Those responses are debatable. I didn't watch the clip but if they took black and white answers to complex economic questions the show is clearly biased.
As an example, raising minimum wage increases unemployment in the short term but creates more economic flow and more jobs in the long term.
Meaning both answers can be correct depending on the time frame and scope used in the argument.
Higher wages from a naturally tighter labor market can create more economic activity, artificially mandating higher wages with a excess pool of labor will NOT create more jobs.
That argument has been successfully refuted here multiple times. Higher minimum wages has a neutral effect on employment. It has been shown time and time again by every economic study I've seen. Trickle down on the other hand, kills jobs. Sucking money out of the economy and shoving it into billionaire's pockets creates a stagnant economy that is volitile and primed for collapse.
However, I do agree that higher wages from tighter labor markets is highly preferable to minimum wage increases.
"Higher minimum wages have a neutral effect on employment"
No disagreement there.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22424254 - 10/23/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Those responses are debatable. I didn't watch the clip but if they took black and white answers to complex economic questions the show is clearly biased.
As an example, raising minimum wage increases unemployment in the short term but creates more economic flow and more jobs in the long term.
Meaning both answers can be correct depending on the time frame and scope used in the argument.
Higher wages from a naturally tighter labor market can create more economic activity, artificially mandating higher wages with a excess pool of labor will NOT create more jobs.
That argument has been successfully refuted here multiple times. Higher minimum wages has a neutral effect on employment. It has been shown time and time again by every economic study I've seen. Trickle down on the other hand, kills jobs. Sucking money out of the economy and shoving it into billionaire's pockets creates a stagnant economy that is volitile and primed for collapse.
However, I do agree that higher wages from tighter labor markets is highly preferable to minimum wage increases.
"Higher minimum wages have a neutral effect on employment"
No disagreement there.
Alright, then it only stands to reason that we should raise it, because it would lift many people out of poverty. Of course there is a cutoff point, and I'm not entirely sure where that is, but if we account for increased productivity, and inflation since 1968, I think anywhere between $12/hour and $20/hour would be a safe bet.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 hour, 42 minutes
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Those responses are debatable. I didn't watch the clip but if they took black and white answers to complex economic questions the show is clearly biased.
As an example, raising minimum wage increases unemployment in the short term but creates more economic flow and more jobs in the long term.
Meaning both answers can be correct depending on the time frame and scope used in the argument.
Higher wages from a naturally tighter labor market can create more economic activity, artificially mandating higher wages with a excess pool of labor will NOT create more jobs.
That argument has been successfully refuted here multiple times. Higher minimum wages has a neutral effect on employment. It has been shown time and time again by every economic study I've seen. Trickle down on the other hand, kills jobs. Sucking money out of the economy and shoving it into billionaire's pockets creates a stagnant economy that is volitile and primed for collapse.
However, I do agree that higher wages from tighter labor markets is highly preferable to minimum wage increases.
"Higher minimum wages have a neutral effect on employment"
No disagreement there.
Alright, then it only stands to reason that we should raise it, because it would lift many people out of poverty. Of course there is a cutoff point, and I'm not entirely sure where that is, but if we account for increased productivity, and inflation since 1968, I think anywhere between $12/hour and $20/hour would be a safe bet.
I have stated numerous times, I'm in favor of a higher minimum wage, with that being said, I'm not disillusioned enough to believe it will have very much impact on poverty.
Small businesses which employ the majority of US workers has the most difficulty managing those higher rates, it might result in less hours and less workers.
We have a structural problem when it comes to wages in the US, too much labor relative to demand, thanks globalization and illegals. Hiking the minimum wage is equal to putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,344
Last seen: 32 minutes, 52 seconds
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22424384 - 10/23/15 07:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I see where you're coming from, and I agree. I'm not against closing the boarders. I don't necessarily think we have to round up all the Mexicans and deport them, but tightening the labor force is a good idea, and fixing our trade deals, where possible, will also benefit America enormously.
For now, I'll take a bandaid over nothing, or even salt from Republicans.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman] 1
#22424547 - 10/23/15 08:12 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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We should ship our liberals to mexico and other backward countries. They will explain how all they have to do is raise the min wage and problems are over. We should also ship out our illegals. Do that and the problem here is solved.
Perhaps a min wage for americans and a lower min for illegals? Since the obumble administration obviously isn't going to do anything about them, might as well have an illegal's min wage
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,344
Last seen: 32 minutes, 52 seconds
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: We should ship our liberals to mexico and other backward countries. They will explain how all they have to do is raise the min wage and problems are over. We should also ship out our illegals. Do that and the problem here is solved.
Perhaps a min wage for americans and a lower min for illegals? Since the obumble administration obviously isn't going to do anything about them, might as well have an illegal's min wage
You sound eerily like Hitler.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,857
Loc: Foreign Lands
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--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22425653 - 10/24/15 02:10 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: The higher the minimum wage the more economic prosperity? Let's hike to $17 per hour or is there a ceiling to this magic formula?
I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence. Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it. At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,344
Last seen: 32 minutes, 52 seconds
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-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,344
Last seen: 32 minutes, 52 seconds
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: The higher the minimum wage the more economic prosperity? Let's hike to $17 per hour or is there a ceiling to this magic formula?
I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence. Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it. At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.
There ya go.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 hour, 42 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: The higher the minimum wage the more economic prosperity? Let's hike to $17 per hour or is there a ceiling to this magic formula?
I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence. Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it. At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.
People earning minimum wage will never save any money even at $15 per hour. The living wage in my state just came out this week- $19 per hour.
Again, hiking the minimum wage is nothing more than putting lipstick on a pig, it doesn't solve anything.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,344
Last seen: 32 minutes, 52 seconds
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22427315 - 10/24/15 01:36 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: The higher the minimum wage the more economic prosperity? Let's hike to $17 per hour or is there a ceiling to this magic formula?
I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence. Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it. At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.
People earning minimum wage will never save any money even at $15 per hour. The living wage in my state just came out this week- $19 per hour.
Again, hiking the minimum wage is nothing more than putting lipstick on a pig, it doesn't solve anything.
Tell that to minimum wage earners.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
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Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
#22427715 - 10/24/15 03:10 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence. Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it. At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.
People earning minimum wage will never save any money even at $15 per hour. The living wage in my state just came out this week- $19 per hour.
Then keep cranking it up. I'd do it slowly to give the new money time to enter the economy before cranking it up more.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence. Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it. At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.
People earning minimum wage will never save any money even at $15 per hour. The living wage in my state just came out this week- $19 per hour.
Then keep cranking it up. I'd do it slowly to give the new money time to enter the economy before cranking it up more.
I've been through minimum wage hikes, and it seems like the costs of goods and services go up right up with them
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Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence. Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it. At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.
People earning minimum wage will never save any money even at $15 per hour. The living wage in my state just came out this week- $19 per hour.
Then keep cranking it up. I'd do it slowly to give the new money time to enter the economy before cranking it up more.
I've been through minimum wage hikes, and it seems like the costs of goods and services go up right up with them
Of course they do, that's why it never works. If it worked, the whole world would have a high min wage and be prosperous. But it doesn't work except in the fantasies of liberals.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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