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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Brian Jones]
    #22414770 - 10/21/15 05:45 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

qman said:
"Free trade leads to unemployment"

Who disagrees with that?  It costs US jobs and gives employment to people in other countries.  It leads to unemployment in the US, that's a fact. BTW, we don't even practice "free trade" today.




That would be me. We are an exportating country and free trade opens up markets to increase our exportations which leads to job growth.

Different conjecture.




The US is the largest exporter in the world, yet it doesn't improve our job market. Again, there's nothing equal about the trade agreements, China and others still have tariffs on imports while the US is just one big open market, that's not good for US workers.

I don't even know if they count selling I-Phones (made in China and Indonesia) to the rest of the world as an US export, my guess is they do, talk about BS.



China is the largest exporter in the world, during the last 5 years.




America's the biggest exporter...... of jobs.........

and FREEEEDOM! lmao


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22415083 - 10/21/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I agree that the EPA wastes money and doesn't do a good job protecting the environment.  Let's figure out how to fix both of those things.

Once we do we can see if we can trim the budget.

As a side note Obama's FCC appointment pissed me off too.  But you don't believe in cable monopolies :wink:




Who did he appoint to the FCC? A Comcast guy? A Net Neutrality buster? lol




Comcast lobbyist.



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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22419445 - 10/22/15 06:11 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

1) Restrictions on housing development make housing less affordable (unenlightened answer: disagree).
2) Mandatory licensing of professional services increases the prices of those services (unenlightened answer: disagree).
3) Overall, the standard of living is higher today than it was 30 years ago (unenlightened answer: disagree).
4) Rent control leads to housing shortages (unenlightened answer: disagree).
5) A company with the largest market share is a monopoly (unenlightened answer: agree).
6) Third World workers working for American companies overseas are being exploited (unenlightened answer: agree).
7) Free trade leads to unemployment (unenlightened answer: agree).
8) Minimum wage laws raise unemployment (unenlightened answer: disagree).


Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?
Self-identified liberals and Democrats do badly on questions of basic economics.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703561604575282190930932412


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22420225 - 10/22/15 08:45 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Debatable.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22420654 - 10/22/15 10:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Debatable.




Are you smarter than a 5th grader? paperback's answer: debatable


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22421652 - 10/23/15 06:44 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Those responses are debatable.  I didn't watch the clip but if they took black and white answers to complex economic questions the show is clearly biased.

As an example, raising minimum wage increases unemployment in the short term but creates more economic flow and more jobs in the long term.

Meaning both answers can be correct depending on the time frame and scope used in the argument.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Onlineqman
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22421995 - 10/23/15 09:04 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Those responses are debatable.  I didn't watch the clip but if they took black and white answers to complex economic questions the show is clearly biased.

As an example, raising minimum wage increases unemployment in the short term but creates more economic flow and more jobs in the long term.

Meaning both answers can be correct depending on the time frame and scope used in the argument.




Higher wages from a naturally tighter labor market can create more economic activity, artificially mandating higher wages with a excess pool of labor will NOT create more jobs.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
    #22422032 - 10/23/15 09:17 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Do you have data to support that?

Quote:

Of the 13 states that increased their minimum wage in early 2014, all but one (New Jersey) are seeing employment gains. Furthermore, nine of the remaining 12 states are above the median for this period. The average change in employment for the 13 states that increased their minimum wage is +0.99% while the remaining states have an average employment change of +0.68%.




http://www.cepr.net/blogs/cepr-blog/2014-job-creation-in-states-that-raised-the-minimum-wage

Digging a bit deeper I find that it's debatable.  With leading economists split fairly evenly on the question.  Though most of them agree that it's worth raising the minimum wage anyway.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/27/economists-think-the-minimum-wage-is-worth-it/

We can also look at federal trends.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/nov/06/ben-cardin/does-raising-minimum-wage-result-job-growth/

As the article mentions none of this happens in a vacuum.

So I stand by my original response to burgerbrain, his conclusions on what is an 'enlightened' answer to complex economic questions is debatable.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22422086 - 10/23/15 09:32 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Do you have data to support that?

Quote:

Of the 13 states that increased their minimum wage in early 2014, all but one (New Jersey) are seeing employment gains. Furthermore, nine of the remaining 12 states are above the median for this period. The average change in employment for the 13 states that increased their minimum wage is +0.99% while the remaining states have an average employment change of +0.68%.




http://www.cepr.net/blogs/cepr-blog/2014-job-creation-in-states-that-raised-the-minimum-wage

Digging a bit deeper I find that it's debatable.  With leading economists split fairly evenly on the question.  Though most of them agree that it's worth raising the minimum wage anyway.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/27/economists-think-the-minimum-wage-is-worth-it/

We can also look at federal trends.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/nov/06/ben-cardin/does-raising-minimum-wage-result-job-growth/

As the article mentions none of this happens in a vacuum.

So I stand by my original response to burgerbrain, his conclusions on what is an 'enlightened' answer to complex economic questions is debatable.




Asserting that most economists endorse raising the minimum wage is not accurate

Are people at the entry level, just beginning thier careers really supposed to be making enough to raise a family on? Should teenagers with no bills really enter the labor force at the same rate as someone who is in their 30's?

Aren't you one of the folks always yapping we should be more like Norway? Norway has NO minimum wage


--------------------
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Onlineqman
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22422095 - 10/23/15 09:35 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Do you have data to support that?

Quote:

Of the 13 states that increased their minimum wage in early 2014, all but one (New Jersey) are seeing employment gains. Furthermore, nine of the remaining 12 states are above the median for this period. The average change in employment for the 13 states that increased their minimum wage is +0.99% while the remaining states have an average employment change of +0.68%.




http://www.cepr.net/blogs/cepr-blog/2014-job-creation-in-states-that-raised-the-minimum-wage

Digging a bit deeper I find that it's debatable.  With leading economists split fairly evenly on the question.  Though most of them agree that it's worth raising the minimum wage anyway.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/27/economists-think-the-minimum-wage-is-worth-it/

We can also look at federal trends.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/nov/06/ben-cardin/does-raising-minimum-wage-result-job-growth/

As the article mentions none of this happens in a vacuum.

So I stand by my original response to burgerbrain, his conclusions on what is an 'enlightened' answer to complex economic questions is debatable.




Correlation isn't causation. I'm in favor of a higher minimum wage, because in real terms it's at its lower level since 1938.

Think about it, why doesn't Mexico, India, South Korea, Greece, Spain, Italy and others just keep hiking their minimum wage and create instant prosperity?  Because artificially mandating higher wages does NOT create economic prosperity, a tight labor market is the only thing that maintains higher wages.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22422239 - 10/23/15 10:05 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I hear ya that it's not as cut and dried as that qman.  Hence it being a debatable issue.

I'm personally in favor of more labor participation rather than having a minimum wage but considering we're still mostly a capitalist country I'd settle for pegging it to inflation so we don't have to have this debate every few years.

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Asserting that most economists endorse raising the minimum wage is not accurate




The article shows that over 50% of leading economists do support raising the minimum wage.  If you have data that refutes it supply it.

Quote:

Are people at the entry level, just beginning thier careers really supposed to be making enough to raise a family on?




Should the rest of us support them instead like we do with Wal-Mart's employees?  Or should we let them starve and instead worry about increased crime?

Quote:

Should teenagers with no bills really enter the labor force at the same rate as someone who is in their 30's?




They also work fewer hours and most bosses will give full-time preference to those with open availability.

Quote:

Aren't you one of the folks always yapping we should be more like Norway? Norway has NO minimum wage




They also have far higher union participation and more worker coops then we do.  I'd love to move to that model but elements in our culture have spent so long demonizing socialism and the labor movement I don't see it happening soon.

If the socialist model is so bad for business how does Denmark rank highest in business friendliness?  If environmental regulation is so bad for business how does Denmark also rank in the top five for environmental concerns?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
    #22422865 - 10/23/15 01:04 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
raising minimum wage increases unemployment in the short term but creates more economic flow and more jobs in the long term.



Higher wages from a naturally tighter labor market can create more economic activity, artificially mandating higher wages with a excess pool of labor will NOT create more jobs.



I agree with paperbackwriter - what's your source for that?  There's plenty of data saying it helps long term, and logically it makes sense that things are better when there's less poverty and more money for people to spend.


--------------------
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: qman]
    #22422870 - 10/23/15 01:05 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Those responses are debatable.  I didn't watch the clip but if they took black and white answers to complex economic questions the show is clearly biased.

As an example, raising minimum wage increases unemployment in the short term but creates more economic flow and more jobs in the long term.

Meaning both answers can be correct depending on the time frame and scope used in the argument.




Higher wages from a naturally tighter labor market can create more economic activity, artificially mandating higher wages with a excess pool of labor will NOT create more jobs.




That argument has been successfully refuted here multiple times. Higher minimum wages has a neutral effect on employment. It has been shown time and time again by every economic study I've seen. Trickle down on the other hand, kills jobs. Sucking money out of the economy and shoving it into billionaire's pockets creates a stagnant economy that is volitile and primed for collapse.

However, I do agree that higher wages from tighter labor markets is highly preferable to minimum wage increases.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (10/23/15 01:06 PM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22422925 - 10/23/15 01:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

An opinion article proves nothing. Why is it you complain about some walmart employees being on food stamps? I thought you were in favor of that.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22423000 - 10/23/15 01:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
An opinion article proves nothing. Why is it you complain about some walmart employees being on food stamps? I thought you were in favor of that.




Which article?  I posted several and made several assertions.  The articles I linked all cite their sources.  Please be more specific.

I'm I'm favor of living wages.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22423117 - 10/23/15 01:54 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I'm in favor of living wages too.  I find it astounding that conservatives complain about the current low wages, and then complain about minimum wage.  :facepalm:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22423157 - 10/23/15 02:02 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm in favor of living wages too.  I find it astounding that conservatives complain about the current low wages, and then complain about minimum wage.  :facepalm:




Well, don't you know that the solution for shitty wages is lower taxes and less Social Safety Net programs?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22423236 - 10/23/15 02:17 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

The result of the poll is the reason why nothing get done in government anymore... Take a look, you'll understand...


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22423389 - 10/23/15 03:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm in favor of living wages too.  I find it astounding that conservatives complain about the current low wages, and then complain about minimum wage.  :facepalm:




Well, don't you know that the solution for shitty wages is lower taxes and less Social Safety Net programs?




Blah blah blah, the solution to Shitty wages is better competition, a friendlier small business environment, lower taxes,

Hey did you know when you CUT taxes, it's the same as increasing the wage?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22423671 - 10/23/15 04:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm in favor of living wages too.  I find it astounding that conservatives complain about the current low wages, and then complain about minimum wage.  :facepalm:




Well, don't you know that the solution for shitty wages is lower taxes and less Social Safety Net programs?




Blah blah blah, the solution to Shitty wages is better competition



Actually, better competition lowers wages further.  If American companies pay $40/hr, and Chinese companies pay $10/hr, that forces American companies to lower wages.

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Hey did you know when you CUT taxes, it's the same as increasing the wage?



No, it isn't.  I already explained:
Quote:

The bottom 46% pay no income tax.  So a tax break isn't going to help the poor, but it will certainly take from their benefits.



You either need to refute what's already been said, or quit repeating your nonsense.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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