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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22520239 - 11/13/15 09:49 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Nuh uh.  I owned YOU!  Can you actually make an intelligent argument?


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22520271 - 11/13/15 09:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
He knows exactly what will happen whether it's raised slowly or quickly. He's just too invested in his propaganda to admit it



We don't know if raising minimum wage too quickly would be harmful.  That's why I suggest raising it slowly.  If you'd rather it be raised quickly, then make your argument in favor of that, but I'm not proposing we do that.




Yes you "don't know" so you lost the argument.

What do you think will happen if we raise the min. wage to $100/hr tomorrow? Oh yeah you don't understand economics-you just listen to the libtard dogma. Good answer.

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/negative-effects-minimum-wage-laws
https://mises.org/library/yes-minimum-wages-still-increase-unemployment
http://americanactionforum.org/research/how-minimum-wage-increased-unemployment-and-reduced-job-creation-in-2013
http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/NealAsbury/minimum-wage-increase-unemployment-middle-class/2013/03/14/id/494620/






Sorry, lib, you still haven't answered the question. "I don't know economics" is not a good enough answer.




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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22520487 - 11/13/15 10:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
He knows exactly what will happen whether it's raised slowly or quickly. He's just too invested in his propaganda to admit it



We don't know if raising minimum wage too quickly would be harmful.  That's why I suggest raising it slowly.  If you'd rather it be raised quickly, then make your argument in favor of that, but I'm not proposing we do that.




Yes you "don't know" so you lost the argument.

What do you think will happen if we raise the min. wage to $100/hr tomorrow? Oh yeah you don't understand economics-you just listen to the libtard dogma. Good answer.

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/negative-effects-minimum-wage-laws
https://mises.org/library/yes-minimum-wages-still-increase-unemployment
http://americanactionforum.org/research/how-minimum-wage-increased-unemployment-and-reduced-job-creation-in-2013
http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/NealAsbury/minimum-wage-increase-unemployment-middle-class/2013/03/14/id/494620/






Sorry, lib, you still haven't answered the question. "I don't know economics" is not a good enough answer.







he knows exactly what will happen, he's seen venezuela, and he don't care, its like religion, facts have no effect on a liberals mind, its all blind faith...


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22520907 - 11/14/15 01:24 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Please show me where I said I think we should copy Venezuela.  I didn't say that.

PLEASE STOP THE STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22521283 - 11/14/15 07:40 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Please show me where I said I think we should copy Venezuela.  I didn't say that.

PLEASE STOP THE STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS.




copy? no, but raising the minimun wage does not magically fix the economy, I believe you do KNOW this and continue with your drivel anyway, THAT was the point of the post


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22521540 - 11/14/15 09:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I already explained that Venezuela's minimum wage isn't keeping up with inflation.  Do you not understand what real minimum wage is???


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22522221 - 11/14/15 12:33 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I already explained that Venezuela's minimum wage isn't keeping up with inflation.  Do you not understand what real minimum wage is???




Raising the minimum wage is what's driving the inflation...


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22527421 - 11/15/15 12:44 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Minimum wage increases are chasing inflation, not the other way around.  And as the article shows, the increases aren't even keeping up with inflation, so they can't possibly be the cause.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22528772 - 11/15/15 07:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Minimum wage increases are chasing inflation, not the other way around.  And as the article shows, the increases aren't even keeping up with inflation, so they can't possibly be the cause.





yes and no, wage increases always drive inflation, but the inflation there is based on the socialist govt mismanagement of the economy, no wage increase can fix that... so in a sense you are right, and also wrong about the need to raise wages to "keep up with inflation"


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22529421 - 11/15/15 08:45 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

wow HU, that was a coherent point. maybe some of that will rub off on your boy, burgerbrains


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22530125 - 11/15/15 11:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
wage increases always drive inflation



Yes, but the libertarian CATO Institute showed that a 10% increase in minimum wage only leads to about a 0.4% increase in prices.

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
but the inflation there is based on the socialist govt mismanagement of the economy, no wage increase can fix that...



Inflation has nothing to do with "socialist", although you're right it does come from mismanagement of the economy.

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
so in a sense you are right, and also wrong about the need to raise wages to "keep up with inflation"



If you raise the minimum wage in sync with inflation, then you're not actually raising real wages.  You're keeping them the same.  But Venezuela wasn't even doing that, so their real minimum wage is going down.  Do you want me to explain what real minimum wage is (as opposed to nominal minimum wage)?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22530543 - 11/16/15 04:56 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Do you want me to explain what real minimum wage is (as opposed to nominal minimum wage)?




Sure, and while you're at it, explain real unemployment and the BS number the govt touts...


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22532849 - 11/16/15 01:59 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Do you want me to explain what real minimum wage is (as opposed to nominal minimum wage)?



Sure



Real minimum wage is minimum wage adjusted for inflation.  Wages are supposed to keep up with inflation.  However, minimum wage hasn't been, and people today can't buy nearly as much on today's $7.25 minimum wage as they could in 1968 with $1.60 minimum wage:

In fact, the graph above shows people could actually buy 50% MORE on minimum wage in 1968 than they can today, because in today's dollars that $1.60 was equivalent to $10.88 in Dec 2014 dollars.  That's a HUGE DECREASE in what today's low wage workers make.  We should peg minimum wage to inflation so people don't keep having less buying power year after year.  Doing so would effectively keep minimum wage the same.

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
...and while you're at it, explain real unemployment and the BS number the govt touts...



I never claimed BS numbers.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22550740 - 11/20/15 09:39 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
He knows exactly what will happen whether it's raised slowly or quickly. He's just too invested in his propaganda to admit it



We don't know if raising minimum wage too quickly would be harmful.  That's why I suggest raising it slowly.  If you'd rather it be raised quickly, then make your argument in favor of that, but I'm not proposing we do that.




Yes you "don't know" so you lost the argument.

What do you think will happen if we raise the min. wage to $100/hr tomorrow? Oh yeah you don't understand economics-you just listen to the libtard dogma. Good answer.

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/negative-effects-minimum-wage-laws
https://mises.org/library/yes-minimum-wages-still-increase-unemployment
http://americanactionforum.org/research/how-minimum-wage-increased-unemployment-and-reduced-job-creation-in-2013
http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/NealAsbury/minimum-wage-increase-unemployment-middle-class/2013/03/14/id/494620/






Sorry, lib, you still haven't answered the question. "I don't know economics" is not a good enough answer.







I guess I will have to wait forever for this answer.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22550881 - 11/20/15 10:12 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

that question has been answered several times.
If you don't like the answer, why don't you provide a more suitable answer?
smart guy.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22551075 - 11/20/15 10:58 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Exactly.  I don't know how many times it has to be explained.  :shake:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22552640 - 11/20/15 05:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Exactly.  I don't know how many times it has to be explained.  :shake:




So you wouldn't mind doing us all a favor and quoting a short sentence where you explained it?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22553508 - 11/20/15 10:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Exactly.  I don't know how many times it has to be explained.  :shake:




So you wouldn't mind doing us all a favor and quoting a short sentence where you explained it?



Here it is AGAIN.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Are are you troll, or just dumb?  If you're a troll, I shouldn't answer, but if you can't figure out how to read the link I provided, here you go:


qman said:  The higher the minimum wage the more economic prosperity?  Let's hike to $17 per hour or is there a ceiling to this magic formula?

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:  I don't know if there's a formula; I think it would be based on empirical evidence.  Start at a reasonable level that we know works ($10.85/hr where it used to be in 1968 when adjusted for inflation), and slowly increase it until people have enough money to start saving some of it.  At that point, the spending slows, and perhaps it's not worth increasing it much more.

qman said:  People earning minimum wage will never save any money even at $15 per hour.  The living wage in my state just came out this week- $19 per hour.  NOTE - QMAN CLEARLY GETS IT HERE.

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:  Then keep cranking it up.  I'd do it slowly to give the new money time to enter the economy before cranking it up more.


In summary - no you DON'T start at $100/hr.  You start low and slowly go up until you realize the increase in consumer spending tapers off, because that's when it becomes more difficult for employers to cover increasing wages.




Note 1:  Before you reask me the SAME questions over again, please reread the above thread, because I've already answered your follow up questions.  :cuckoo:

Note 2:  Please don't pretend "I don't know the formula" is the same as "I don't know".  It's the not the same.  It means instead of using a formula to get to your answer, you use real data.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22553798 - 11/21/15 12:42 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Do you want me to explain what real minimum wage is (as opposed to nominal minimum wage)?



Sure



Real minimum wage is minimum wage adjusted for inflation.  Wages are supposed to keep up with inflation.  However, minimum wage hasn't been, and people today can't buy nearly as much on today's $7.25 minimum wage as they could in 1968 with $1.60 minimum wage:

In fact, the graph above shows people could actually buy 50% MORE on minimum wage in 1968 than they can today, because in today's dollars that $1.60 was equivalent to $10.88 in Dec 2014 dollars.  That's a HUGE DECREASE in what today's low wage workers make.  We should peg minimum wage to inflation so people don't keep having less buying power year after year.  Doing so would effectively keep minimum wage the same.
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
...and while you're at it, explain real unemployment and the BS number the govt touts...



I never claimed BS numbers.  :shrug:




1Fal, you math is a bit fuzzy.  I saw that 11.03 was the equivalent of 1.6 in 1968. (you had 10.68 in terms of todays dollars but that's pretty close to what I have)

Anyway the point is: if the equivalent adusted for inflation was 11.03 in 1968, and is 7.75 now, then in terms of 2015 dollars you lost about 35% of your buying power on minimum wage. So ou have to raise the minimum wage about 53% to get it back to the $11.03 equivalent. in other words, strictly adusted for inflation you can buy now a little less than 2/3 of what you could in 1968.  YOu have to figure it that way because with everthing pegged in terms of 2015 dollars, then the unit prices of everthing must not change since you figured in inflation. 

Think of it this way: If your wage right now is $100,and tomorrow it is $50 becuase the company fucks you over, and prices haven't changed, then you lost 50% of you BUYING POWER.  Your real wage would then have climb 100% to get back to %100.  Careful with references when using percent, not saying you are wrong.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Poll: Economics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22555364 - 11/21/15 12:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

So let's recap: I asked a question and you responded:

Quote:

burgerbrain said:


What do you think will happen if we raise the min. wage to $100/hr tomorrow? Oh yeah you don't understand economics-you just listen to the libtard dogma. Good answer.

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/negative-effects-minimum-wage-laws
https://mises.org/library/yes-minimum-wages-still-increase-unemployment
http://americanactionforum.org/research/how-minimum-wage-increased-unemployment-and-reduced-job-creation-in-2013
http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/NealAsbury/minimum-wage-increase-unemployment-middle-class/2013/03/14/id/494620/






Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
In summary - no you DON'T start at $100/hr.  You start low and slowly go up until you realize the increase in consumer spending tapers off, because that's when it becomes more difficult for employers to cover increasing wages.





LOL so quote "because that's when it becomes more difficult for employers to cover increasing wages." Yes and what do employers do when wages are increasingly difficult, or even impossible, to cover? I'll give you a hint.

Employers stop hiring or hire much less.


What happens when employers stop hiring or hire much less? I'll give you a hint.

Unemployment rises.

Again, liberal, "We don't know" is not a good enough answer- it makes you look really bad at economics.
Quote:


Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
We don't know if raising minimum wage too quickly would be harmful.




--------------------


Edited by burgerbrain (11/21/15 12:49 PM)


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