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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: lowbrow]
    #22385449 - 10/15/15 08:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

lowbrow said:
What's with all the pretentious meat is murder threads lately?



sentient beings are tortured while the we waste copious natural resources and ruin our health. There are really very little gains here. This is the concern


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: twighead]
    #22385450 - 10/15/15 08:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Okay fear may be the wrong word, but you can't tell me that non predator animals don't live in constant skittish behavior and constantly watching their surroundings for signs they're about to be attacked. Exhibiting the same types of behaviors a human would if he were in the jungle with known predators and were afraid of being eaten. It's pretty much one of the most common traits of animals lower on the food chain.

As for your question I really can't tell you. I'd have to be in the situation to tell you. All I can say is grass is always greener on the other side. If I were locked up constantly, I'd probably want to take my chances out in the jungle being constantly stalked by jaguars and shit. If I had spent years stuck in the jungle being stalked by jaguars constantly, I'd probably welcome a safe environment even if it were confining.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #22385470 - 10/15/15 08:32 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomslip said:
Okay fear may be the wrong word, but you can't tell me that non predator animals don't live in constant skittish behavior and constantly watching their surroundings for signs they're about to be attacked. Exhibiting the same types of behaviors a human would if he were in the jungle with known predators and were afraid of being eaten. It's pretty much one of the most common traits of animals lower on the food chain.

As for your question I really can't tell you. I'd have to be in the situation to tell you. All I can say is grass is always greener on the other side. If I were locked up constantly, I'd probably want to take my chances out in the jungle being constantly stalked by jaguars and shit. If I had spent years stuck in the jungle being stalked by jaguars constantly, I'd probably welcome a safe environment even if it were confining.



Lol bruh you are yet to address my point

IT COSTS THE SAME

A) torture an animal and eat it. Tastes worse, same cash and resources
B) kill it, eat it. Tastes better, same cash and resources


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InvisibleMalcolm_Xtasy
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: topdog82]
    #22385481 - 10/15/15 08:35 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I just wanna say that steaks, burgers, and chicken wings are delicious. There's no way I'd be able to give any of that up. Interesting arguments in this thread though :thumbup:


--------------------
I'm stupid, Enlil is smart.
I'm ugly, Enlil is beautiful.
I'm a loser, Enlil is a winner.
Someday, I hope to be like Enlil but secretly know I never will.


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OfflineMescalean
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: topdog82]
    #22385483 - 10/15/15 08:35 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I agree, wild game taste tha bomb bomb compared to store bought shit. Deer season just opened up and waiting on a buddy to come back with some venison this weekend. Mouth is already watering.


--------------------
FREE BURKE


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: topdog82]
    #22385491 - 10/15/15 08:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

You're talking to the wrong person. I'm not the one who decides meat from responsibly raised animals costs double by the pound. You're talking costs of operation. I don't own an operation. You're welcome to drive here and come look at all the places I can buy meat and see for yourself that is basically literally double the cost.

I have no problem at all with giving animals freedom. Why should it bother me if they were free? You think I just get off on eating meat of mistreated animals or something? I'm only eating what's economical. Get those economics to change, and I'll switch what meat I buy.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Malcolm_Xtasy]
    #22385498 - 10/15/15 08:38 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Malcolm_Xtasy said:
I just wanna say that steaks, burgers, and chicken wings are delicious. There's no way I'd be able to give any of that up. Interesting arguments in this thread though :thumbup:



Thats definately a fact. What I am clearly proposing is a sustianable meat system where we treat them a little better and win

Do people even logic these days?


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #22385499 - 10/15/15 08:38 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomslip said:
Okay fear may be the wrong word, but you can't tell me that non predator animals don't live in constant skittish behavior and constantly watching their surroundings for signs they're about to be attacked. Exhibiting the same types of behaviors a human would if he were in the jungle with known predators and were afraid of being eaten. It's pretty much one of the most common traits of animals lower on the food chain.

As for your question I really can't tell you. I'd have to be in the situation to tell you. All I can say is grass is always greener on the other side. If I were locked up constantly, I'd probably want to take my chances out in the jungle being constantly stalked by jaguars and shit. If I had spent years stuck in the jungle being stalked by jaguars constantly, I'd probably welcome a safe environment even if it were confining.



I think that might be a slight misconception on the end of humans - as most animals are rightfully suspicious of us and by the time we're observing them they've usually seen or smelled us... I've lived in pretty rural mountainous areas most of my life and in observing animals - when they aren't alerted by sounds or smells they're completely relaxed.  And we're talking about cows here mostly I presume, they don't exactly live in the jungle or face mass predation. Especially when under the protection of bulls as they are in their natural environment. And if you've ever seen/been around a bull - they're quite intimidating, one of the most powerful animals on the planet.


--------------------
¿Check out some art m8?



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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #22385511 - 10/15/15 08:40 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomslip said:
You're talking to the wrong person. I'm not the one who decides meat from responsibly raised animals costs double by the pound. You're talking costs of operation. I don't own an operation. You're welcome to drive here and come look at all the places I can buy meat and see for yourself that is basically literally double the cost.

I have no problem at all with giving animals freedom. Why should it bother me if they were free? You think I just get off on eating meat of mistreated animals or something? I'm only eating what's economical. Get those economics to change, and I'll switch what meat I buy.



Oh thats reasonable I guess. But regardless, you can get some of the best quality steak on the planet for about 1/3 the cost of normal meat. Its a pain to drive but theres tons of websites to connect you to farmers that raise quality meat. Its some of the best meat I have had ever. I encourage you to consider it


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: twighead]
    #22385536 - 10/15/15 08:46 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

We aren't just talking about cows, because that's not all the meat that there is. At this point it's kinda hard to point at any animal we regularly eat and say what kind of life it would really have, most have been domesticated for thousands of years. The best we can really do is compare to wild animals that are similar.

I don't have a vast knowledge on the history of pre-domestication of animals, but I can look at other herbivores/prey animals and draw some reasonable conclusions.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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InvisibleCalifornia
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Kukaracha]
    #22385568 - 10/15/15 08:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

We :heart: meat.


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #22385635 - 10/15/15 09:04 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomslip said:
We aren't just talking about cows, because that's not all the meat that there is. At this point it's kinda hard to point at any animal we regularly eat and say what kind of life it would really have, most have been domesticated for thousands of years. The best we can really do is compare to wild animals that are similar.

I don't have a vast knowledge on the history of pre-domestication of animals, but I can look at other herbivores/prey animals and draw some reasonable conclusions.



Well up until 100 years ago, most farms operated in a fairly humane way. Most beef was grass feed and more chickens were free range. Obviously we cant get it 100% right, but a start would be feeding animals food they were biologically evolved to eat. Not paint or sewage. And not keeping them in cages etc


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: topdog82]
    #22385659 - 10/15/15 09:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Seems like the industrial revolution put a lot of people in the mindset that: The minimum amount of space used + the most amount of production within that space + the cheapest materials to get the job done = cheapest product = largest profit margin = the most profit = good .. without any consideration as to the ramifications of thus. Our current plant agriculture system utilizes a similar industrial era mindset in its own absurd way as well.


--------------------
¿Check out some art m8?



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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: topdog82]
    #22385701 - 10/15/15 09:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not arguing that the industry as it exists today isn't a recent development. Just that they've been domesticated for so long, it can be difficult to definitively say what kind of life they'd of had as completely wild animals. We've developed a co-dependency over thousands of years. They need us as much as we need them. There's a pretty good chance that if we just decided one day to stop raising them and just released the entire species to live on it's own, that they would go extinct pretty rapidly (not rapid by human lifespan standards, but by natural evolution and extinction standards). If they did manage to keep the species going, it would be very rough and precarious for quite awhile.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: twighead]
    #22385705 - 10/15/15 09:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

twighead said:
Seems like the industrial revolution put a lot of people in the mindset that: The minimum amount of space used + the most amount of production within that space + the cheapest materials to get the job done = cheapest product = largest profit margin = the most profit = good .. without any consideration as to the ramifications of thus. Our current plant agriculture system utilizes a similar industrial era mindset in its own absurd way as well.



yep :thumbup:

Capitalism is the shit but sometimes its fucked


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OfflineAchillita
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: topdog82]
    #22385706 - 10/15/15 09:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I honestly doubt all the claims that most meat is raised in these cattle prisons. I used to work on my grandpa's ranch as a teen in oklahoma. I would bet that cows outnumber humans in oklahoma.

We'd sell cows to the slaughterhouse once a year. Sometimes we'd sell a dozen or 2, other times only a couple. Almost every person in the area did the same. Pretty much we'd supplement them with corn feed in the winter months or during drought or whatever.

Most rural places follow something along those lines. I wouldnt doubt there are a few of these closed cattle spaces that exist, but I highly doubt it's anywhere near common place. It seems like it'd be counter cost productive.

Also, of course slaughterhouses aren't pretty. They put live animals in, kill them, and then cut up and package the meat. The only humane way is to offer a quick death, which is almost universally done. I've visited slaughterhouses in person btw.


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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Achillita]
    #22385737 - 10/15/15 09:19 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomslip said:
I'm not arguing that the industry as it exists today isn't a recent development. Just that they've been domesticated for so long, it can be difficult to definitively say what kind of life they'd of had as completely wild animals. We've developed a co-dependency over thousands of years. They need us as much as we need them. There's a pretty good chance that if we just decided one day to stop raising them and just released the entire species to live on it's own, that they would go extinct pretty rapidly (not rapid by human lifespan standards, but by natural evolution and extinction standards). If they did manage to keep the species going, it would be very rough and precarious for quite awhile.



debatable mate. Modern cows evolved from aurochs. They went extinct from human hunting. Same with bison. Boar still exist in the wild perfectly fine. Same with turkeys. And chicken evovled from a wild flightless bird in southeast asia. fish were doing fine until we started overfishing

Humans basically raped and destroyed everything since we arrived on the scene.
Quote:

Achillita said:
I honestly doubt all the claims that most meat is raised in these cattle prisons. I used to work on my grandpa's ranch as a teen in oklahoma. I would bet that cows outnumber humans in oklahoma.

We'd sell cows to the slaughterhouse once a year. Sometimes we'd sell a dozen or 2, other times only a couple. Almost every person in the area did the same. Pretty much we'd supplement them with corn feed in the winter months or during drought or whatever.

Most rural places follow something along those lines. I wouldnt doubt there are a few of these closed cattle spaces that exist, but I highly doubt it's anywhere near common place. It seems like it'd be counter cost productive.

Also, of course slaughterhouses aren't pretty. They put live animals in, kill them, and then cut up and package the meat. The only humane way is to offer a quick death, which is almost universally done. I've visited slaughterhouses in person btw.



Debatable as well mate. The subsidized corn makes things pretty simple. Feeding a cow corn is cheaper than grass after subsidies. Corn fed meat is only a "recent" happening. Or at least relatively so


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OfflineAchillita
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: topdog82]
    #22385786 - 10/15/15 09:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Grass is free man... If you have land and rain falls from the sky, most places grass will grow. I've been around a dozen ranches all across Texas and Oklahoma. Some were extremely big, others only a hundred cattle or so. They'd only really give them feed as a supplement when there was no grass or just not enough.

All these places let their cattle roam through out the day. And most rounded them up into a smaller field at night.

:shrug: From my personal experience, most ranches just don't do the things some people claim they do. Slaughterhouses are going to look brutal. They walk the cattle through, kill them(there's various methods), and then hook them to butcher.


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OfflineShroomslip
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: topdog82]
    #22385788 - 10/15/15 09:28 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

That goes back to me saying the best we can really do is base it on similar animals. And you've still got to factor in the fact that the wild boar and wild turkeys are, well, wild. Our domesticated animals have quite different mindsets, instincts etc. Like dogs, they've been selectively bred to fit our needs, and our needs are for them to depend on us and not behave like wild animals.

I don't know for sure, but I'm going to guess it would take more than one generation to breed that wild back into them. Whether they went extinct before the wild they'd need to thrive could be bred into them is the question.

Some animals that have been bred into captivity (which is even a step lower than domestication) can survive being released into the wild at a later date, and survive. For others, it's a death sentence.


--------------------
With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way.
I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today.
Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear.
I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear.


You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being
With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline


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OfflineAchillita
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Shroomslip]
    #22385803 - 10/15/15 09:32 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Wild boars(at least in the US) are just domestic pigs that escaped.

Almost all domesticated animals can survive on their own. Wild turkeys are a thing. As are wild chickens.


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