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InvisibleKalistis
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Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 2,265
Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: MysticMoteToter]
    #22424122 - 10/23/15 06:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I still eat the cow, pig, chicken, trout, etc... I'm not going to begin to assume what we do and do not know about the relationships and connections these animals have with each other and the universe. I just elect to find sustainable and ethical alternatives to what most grocery stores provide. As a result my grocery bills are typically much higher when I do purchase these proteins and I do tend to eat mostly a plant based diet. If I didn't live in a city where I had so many resources available to me, this probably wouldn't be the case.

I think we take for granted the fact that our agricultural system is immense and that we have the ability to have such selective diets. Agriculture creates the opportunity for farmers to cultivate foods that otherwise couldn't possibly grow in the present environment. Should our agricultural system collapse (which it could), I highly doubt any of us would having this discussion in the first place. Most people have no clue where their food comes from nor care to or the impact its cultivation has on the environment. I know plenty of folks in both camps... to each is their own. I prefer to keep my diet as diverse and sustainable as possible. Instead of focusing on converting people to think as I do, do my very best to not waste food and grown my own when possible.


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: MysticMoteToter]
    #22424155 - 10/23/15 06:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MysticMoteToter said:
But that child who does not feel physical pain would still experience emotional pain which is what in my opinion differentiates the justification for eating fish/insects vs red meat/pork/mammals. A trout or a cricket won't miss it's mom days after they die, however many mammals do grieve/form friendships/etc. Physical pain is just that, a response to keep you alive. Physical pain is a response to continue existence where emotional pain comes with the understanding of your existence. They are two very different things.



Emotional pain is controlled by the brain also. Without the brain there is no pain.

"Richard Lane, at the University of Arizona compares it to people who have gone blind after damage to the visual cortex; despite having healthy eyes, they can’t see the images. In the same way, a damaged neural circuit involved in emotional processing might prevent sadness, happiness or anger from bursting into consciousness.... “Maybe the emotion gets activated, you even have the bodily responses, but it happens without you being consciously aware of the emotion,” he says." http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150818-what-is-it-like-to-have-never-felt-an-emotion


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The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.


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OfflineMysticMoteToter
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Registered: 07/26/15
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: endogenous]
    #22424241 - 10/23/15 06:46 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

endogenous said:
Quote:

MysticMoteToter said:
But that child who does not feel physical pain would still experience emotional pain which is what in my opinion differentiates the justification for eating fish/insects vs red meat/pork/mammals. A trout or a cricket won't miss it's mom days after they die, however many mammals do grieve/form friendships/etc. Physical pain is just that, a response to keep you alive. Physical pain is a response to continue existence where emotional pain comes with the understanding of your existence. They are two very different things.



Emotional pain is controlled by the brain also. Without the brain there is no pain.

"Richard Lane, at the University of Arizona compares it to people who have gone blind after damage to the visual cortex; despite having healthy eyes, they can’t see the images. In the same way, a damaged neural circuit involved in emotional processing might prevent sadness, happiness or anger from bursting into consciousness.... “Maybe the emotion gets activated, you even have the bodily responses, but it happens without you being consciously aware of the emotion,” he says." http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150818-what-is-it-like-to-have-never-felt-an-emotion



Having a brain is not the question. It is how that brain works and what it is capable experiencing  that matters.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Kalistis]
    #22424310 - 10/23/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kalistis said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
I very much doubt that plants feel pain. I doubt that even fish feel pain. I doubt that most reptiles feel very much pain.




I work with animals, we use narcotics on fish and reptiles because they do feel pain. There is plenty of well supported literature to support this fact. As others have said, just google it. Plants also have a very rudimentary nervous system, but do "feel" pain and depending on the the species of the plant they respond.



Having a nervous system isn't sufficient for being aware of pain. Just because something has nociceptors doesn't mean it feels pain. Just because a fish flops around when you hook it it doesn't mean it is consciously aware of the pain. The nociceptor system goes to two places. First it goes to the basal ganglia. This is what causes the "reaction". This is why you pull your head back from the hot stove before you feel the pain. After the nociceptors hit the basal ganglia, they go to the cortex. This is where you "experience" the pain. The reason for this is so you learn what kinds of behaviors cause pain. It is a classical conditioning device. The thing is, not all animals HAVE a cortex. Fish don't. If an animal doesn't have one, chances are it doesnt experience much of anything at all, much less pain.


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OfflineMescalean
Burke is love, burke is life.


Registered: 01/18/12
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: morrowasted]
    #22424324 - 10/23/15 07:12 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Going to this place tonight for dinner. Brazilian bbq. Literally you flip your card to green on your table and you get swarmed with hot slabs of beef pork lamb chicken wrapped in fucking bacon. You flip to red when you've had your fill. Back to green if you want more.


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InvisibleKalistis
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Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 2,265
Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Mescalean]
    #22424432 - 10/23/15 07:43 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds delicious.

Brazilian BBQ places usually have dancers too! Enjoy!

You don't have to explain anatomy or physiology to me, once was enough. Lol.

Now I'm hungry.


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InvisibleRocket

Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 3,653
Loc: Land of the Freaks Flag
Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: SARAtonin]
    #22424678 - 10/23/15 08:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
I haven't eaten meat since I was 13,
Now it's mostly out of habit and because my wife doesn't either that I don't.
But lately I've been getting the strongest urges to eat chicken wings.




http://i.imgur.com/rpjfz.gif


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: morrowasted]
    #22425588 - 10/24/15 01:28 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

Kalistis said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
I very much doubt that plants feel pain. I doubt that even fish feel pain. I doubt that most reptiles feel very much pain.




I work with animals, we use narcotics on fish and reptiles because they do feel pain. There is plenty of well supported literature to support this fact. As others have said, just google it. Plants also have a very rudimentary nervous system, but do "feel" pain and depending on the the species of the plant they respond.



Having a nervous system isn't sufficient for being aware of pain. Just because something has nociceptors doesn't mean it feels pain. Just because a fish flops around when you hook it it doesn't mean it is consciously aware of the pain. The nociceptor system goes to two places. First it goes to the basal ganglia. This is what causes the "reaction". This is why you pull your head back from the hot stove before you feel the pain. After the nociceptors hit the basal ganglia, they go to the cortex. This is where you "experience" the pain. The reason for this is so you learn what kinds of behaviors cause pain. It is a classical conditioning device. The thing is, not all animals HAVE a cortex. Fish don't. If an animal doesn't have one, chances are it doesnt experience much of anything at all, much less pain.




"Victoria Braithwaite one of the main scientists working on the subject, showed several years ago, (with wide media coverage), that fish have specialized pain receptors. She said that scientists are discovering that fish are more intelligent and more responsive than had been thought and states that the latest scientific evidence shows that fish should be given the protection currently given to birds and mammals.

Neurobiologists have found that fish have nervous systems that comprehend and respond to pain. "Fish (like “higher vertebrates”) have neurotransmitters such as endorphins that relieve suffering—the only reason for their nervous systems to produce these painkillers is to alleviate pain.

Even though fish don’t have the same brain structures that humans do—fish do not have a neocortex, for example—Dr. Ian Duncan, a researcher at the University of Guelph in Canada, reminds us that we “have to look at behaviour and physiology,” not just anatomy. “It’s possible for a brain to evolve in different ways,” he says. “That’s what is happening in the fish line. It’s evolved in some other ways in [other] parts of the brain to receive pain.

  http://icank-ihsan.weebly.com/uploads/1/8/7/4/18748648/do_fish_feel_pain.pdf


Edited by endogenous (10/24/15 02:56 AM)


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InvisibleSoloTrip
Help Ever, Hurt Never
Male

Registered: 12/30/14
Posts: 1,059
Loc: Flag
Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: endogenous]
    #22426795 - 10/24/15 11:31 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

If you don't do it for the animals then eat less meat for yourself. The truth is it's not just one reason people go vegetarian right? Or it would be easier to attempt to undermine. All I know is I've been a vegetarian for nearly 20 years and I look in the mirror every morning and say, I am a fucking God!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/21/us-health-mediterraneandiet-aging-brain-idUSKCN0SF2UF20151021
Of course remember that correlation doesn't imply causation. It could just be people with atrophied brains choose to eat more meat lol....


Edited by SoloTrip (10/24/15 11:44 AM)


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OfflineMescalean
Burke is love, burke is life.


Registered: 01/18/12
Posts: 6,755
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: SoloTrip] * 1
    #22428639 - 10/24/15 06:28 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

And on the contrary I eat about 150 to 180 grams of protein just from meat a day. Thats not counting whey our dairy. Built like a D1 linebacker too and constantly get asked what school I played for.

This whole look how jacked/in shape I am because I'm vegan is a joke. I keep addressing it and they keep ignoring like a politician trying not to hang themselves during a debate.

You will always get better athletic and aesthetic from a diet high in animal derived protein.

If you are really going to look like a god (top athlete) you need to eat and train like one. Lift heavy, explosive drills. Short burst high intensity cardio. And plenty of iron protein and creatine from some meat and dairy. Eat and train like a fucking predator. Lets not forget the healthy fats in animal meat that RAISE TESTOSTERONE. The hormone that pretty much makes you a man...


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OfflineMysticMoteToter
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Registered: 07/26/15
Posts: 2,036
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Mescalean]
    #22428693 - 10/24/15 06:39 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mescalean said:
Built like a D1 linebacker too and constantly get asked what school I played for.

If you are really going to look like a god (top athlete) you need to eat and train like one. Lift heavy, explosive drills. Short burst high intensity cardio. And plenty of iron protein and creatine from some meat and dairy. Eat and train like a fucking predator. Lets not forget the healthy fats in animal meat that RAISE TESTOSTERONE. The hormone that pretty much makes you a man...



Brains > Physical Strength, it's the 21st century bro robots are coming to do the heavy lifting... Unless your'e an actual athlete, (which you're not, based of the statement that people ask if you had played sports....insinuating that you in fact did not) you kinda seem like you look like a tool who just works out for the image and your statement "Eat and train like a fucking predator." is laughable. You think Homo sapiens are natural predators, we have numbers and good brains and that's how we've survived....step in a cage with a lion or a pissed off bear hahaha :havesomescience:


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Half Homo Hardly Sapient
Overview Effect
Fuck War, Feed Birds.



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InvisibleSoloTrip
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Registered: 12/30/14
Posts: 1,059
Loc: Flag
Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Mescalean]
    #22428697 - 10/24/15 06:41 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

lol We probably have different definitions of a god. I just mean I'm content with myself in the mirror and I'm not a world class athlete for sure so I don't have to eat like one. Anyway my article was about the brain and the atrophied brains of meat eaters, hence the term "meatheads".


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Edited by SoloTrip (10/24/15 06:42 PM)


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: SoloTrip] * 1
    #22428761 - 10/24/15 06:55 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoloTrip said:
If you don't do it for the animals then eat less meat for yourself. The truth is it's not just one reason people go vegetarian right? Or it would be easier to attempt to undermine. All I know is I've been a vegetarian for nearly 20 years and I look in the mirror every morning and say, I am a fucking God!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/21/us-health-mediterraneandiet-aging-brain-idUSKCN0SF2UF20151021
Of course remember that correlation doesn't imply causation. It could just be people with atrophied brains choose to eat more meat lol....




There are a couple interesting aspects of this link.

Aside from the fact you point out about it not necessarily being that the diet causes the change, it is interesting that part of the emphasis in the article is that the benefit comes from eating fish rather than vegetables.
The mention of nuts in the diet also indicates to me that the impact might be due to the level of omega fats in the diet -- at which point, it does not become just a comparison between vegetarians and omnivores, but rather between people who eat more healthy in general and those who just eat.
What would be interesting would be to see how meat eaters brains stack up when they also consume higher levels of omega fats.

What particularly interests me about the study is that it has to do with Alzheimer's though.
There has been research that shows that intermittent fasting offsets the impacts of Alzheimer's as well, without needing to change the dietary intake on days when an individual eats.

The skew in the results could be attributed to people on a more well-balanced diet taking better care of themselves in general, as the article notes
Quote:

...scientists haven't conclusively proven that the diet itself is responsible, rather than other lifestyle choices made by people who eat this way.




Exercising regularly and eating a balanced diet is important on the whole, but is not mutually exclusive with eating meat. :shrug:


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Registered: 04/10/14
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: MysticMoteToter]
    #22428791 - 10/24/15 07:00 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

What a retarded statement. Yeah, eating a oropper diet with high quality meat that helps your muscles will be bad for your brain, how rediculous. It is  ost likely corralation. Why thefuck would quality protein do that? I fimd it insulting when vegetarians sink to their bs health arguments. Go eat some bread


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OfflineMysticMoteToter
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #22428809 - 10/24/15 07:03 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
What a retarded statement. Yeah, eating a oropper diet with high quality meat that helps your muscles will be bad for your brain, how rediculous. It is  ost likely corralation. Why thefuck would quality protein do that? I fimd it insulting when vegetarians sink to their bs health arguments. Go eat some bread



"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
― Socrates

edit: go drink some more coffee. You probably need it


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:zaphod:   :zaphod: 


Half Homo Hardly Sapient
Overview Effect
Fuck War, Feed Birds.



Edited by MysticMoteToter (10/24/15 07:04 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: MysticMoteToter] * 1
    #22428825 - 10/24/15 07:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MysticMoteToter said:
Quote:

Mescalean said:
Built like a D1 linebacker too and constantly get asked what school I played for.

If you are really going to look like a god (top athlete) you need to eat and train like one. Lift heavy, explosive drills. Short burst high intensity cardio. And plenty of iron protein and creatine from some meat and dairy. Eat and train like a fucking predator. Lets not forget the healthy fats in animal meat that RAISE TESTOSTERONE. The hormone that pretty much makes you a man...



Brains > Physical Strength, it's the 21st century bro robots are coming to do the heavy lifting... Unless your'e an actual athlete, (which you're not, based of the statement that people ask if you had played sports....insinuating that you in fact did not) you kinda seem like you look like a tool who just works out for the image and your statement "Eat and train like a fucking predator." is laughable. You think Homo sapiens are natural predators, we have numbers and good brains and that's how we've survived....step in a cage with a lion or a pissed off bear hahaha :havesomescience:



We've been hunting those creatures for millenia.  We are the apex predator on land


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: MysticMoteToter]
    #22428837 - 10/24/15 07:09 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MysticMoteToter said:
Quote:

MoxyOx said:
To the extent of factory farming, their meat is deplorable and disgusting. I stick with purchasing directly from a farmer, it makes all the difference.




Buy that shit Kosher. Animals are killed with dignity and respect





really, are they allowed to commit seppuku or something

are slaughter houses sending people out to chase down cattle and stab them to death
with toothpicks or something, I mean what's the difference between the slaughter
under jewish law and a standard slaughter house


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OfflineMescalean
Burke is love, burke is life.


Registered: 01/18/12
Posts: 6,755
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: MysticMoteToter]
    #22428878 - 10/24/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MysticMoteToter said:
Quote:

Mescalean said:
Built like a D1 linebacker too and constantly get asked what school I played for.

If you are really going to look like a god (top athlete) you need to eat and train like one. Lift heavy, explosive drills. Short burst high intensity cardio. And plenty of iron protein and creatine from some meat and dairy. Eat and train like a fucking predator. Lets not forget the healthy fats in animal meat that RAISE TESTOSTERONE. The hormone that pretty much makes you a man...



Brains > Physical Strength, it's the 21st century bro robots are coming to do the heavy lifting... Unless your'e an actual athlete, (which you're not, based of the statement that people ask if you had played sports....insinuating that you in fact did not) you kinda seem like you look like a tool who just works out for the image and your statement "Eat and train like a fucking predator." is laughable. You think Homo sapiens are natural predators, we have numbers and good brains and that's how we've survived....step in a cage with a lion or a pissed off bear hahaha :havesomescience:




Probably the most laughable post in this thread. Anyone on these boards who knows me knows what sports I love, have played and still want to try. You tried sounding like a smart ass but it hasn't worked to well. And no one has addressed me in this thread besides your soft ass. Take your own advice bud, if you aren't an athlete don't talk about this shit. I know damn well you aren't.

4 years as a linebacker/center in highschool and linebacker/special teams in jr college. Tryyyyy meeeee puuuuuusssssss


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: MysticMoteToter] * 1
    #22428904 - 10/24/15 07:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Don't throw your silly quotes at me, I insult you because your statement is completely retarded. There are more things then just protein in meat, it is full of micoronutrients. Veggies are great by the way. If you think meat is unhealthy, you are just ignorant


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InvisibleSoloTrip
Help Ever, Hurt Never
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Registered: 12/30/14
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Loc: Flag
Re: Why do we still eat meat? [Re: Tantrika]
    #22428935 - 10/24/15 07:25 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Good post man. Way to recognize the nuances. I did in my post instruct people to eat less meat though rather than to give it up altogether, as I have. It's not an easy thing to do though I wouldn't trade it for anything. This conversation is making me hungry! Peace out for now I gotta go make a salad haha.


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