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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22404154 - 10/19/15 03:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
The fact is if you think debt is irrelevant, youre very ignorant, current interest payments on the debt are 225 billion/year, expected to double by 2019, and if interest rates go up, well nobody likes "what ifs"



US debt is close to 19 trillion, while Greece's debt is less than 1 trillion.  But Greece is in much worse shape because their debt to GDP ration is close to 200%, while it's less than 100% in the US.  Debt on its own isn't terribly significant compared to the debt to GDP ratio.

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Think of all the great social spending, infrastructure and education we could do with 225 BILLION DOLLARS, that my good friend, is the true cost of "debt"



I'm arguing that we need to pay the debt down.  Conservatives argue that we need to cut taxes.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22404248 - 10/19/15 04:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:


It sure as hell don't look like Obama has lowered it, and the actual debt keeps going up, if you think that's "irrelevant" maybe you should look at Greece



First of all, you can see that debt as a percentage of GDP trends up with Republican presidents, and down with Democrat presidents.  Just look at the graph.

Second, debt IS irrelevant, unless you compare it with what you have.




You left wing 'bats all try to play semantics when you get caught making shit up. You always try to tell us obumble lowered the deficit but that is a lie made up by playing games with numbers and basically bullshitting us. He increased the debt more than 200 years of previous presidents and you try to tell us he lowered the deficit? Your pants are on fire.

Then, you come out with debt is irrelelant. Well guess what, we can't pay our present debt without shafting somebody. Who shall it be? You liberals are good at shafting people, should it be the ones who bought treasuries, or just foreigners that get the shaft? Or how about endless qe to make the debt smaller? What type of weasel trick can we use to get rid of the debt you tell us doesn't matter? Wait till a large percentage want to cash in their treasuries if you think it doesn't matter.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22404321 - 10/19/15 04:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:


It sure as hell don't look like Obama has lowered it, and the actual debt keeps going up, if you think that's "irrelevant" maybe you should look at Greece



First of all, you can see that debt as a percentage of GDP trends up with Republican presidents, and down with Democrat presidents.  Just look at the graph.

Second, debt IS irrelevant, unless you compare it with what you have.




You left wing 'bats all try to play semantics when you get caught making shit up. You always try to tell us obumble lowered the deficit but that is a lie made up by playing games with numbers and basically bullshitting us. He increased the debt more than 200 years of previous presidents and you try to tell us he lowered the deficit? Your pants are on fire.

Then, you come out with debt is irrelelant. Well guess what, we can't pay our present debt without shafting somebody. Who shall it be? You liberals are good at shafting people, should it be the ones who bought treasuries, or just foreigners that get the shaft? Or how about endless qe to make the debt smaller? What type of weasel trick can we use to get rid of the debt you tell us doesn't matter? Wait till a large percentage want to cash in their treasuries if you think it doesn't matter.




China is already starting to dump our debt as fast as they can off load it, they are starting to see what's happening

Who else was it that wanted to offload toxic assets before the bubble bursts, I can't remember but it seems like tho outcome wasn't very good

Liberals sure are good at insulting people, backing up their BS with facts, not so much


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22404391 - 10/19/15 05:00 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

>Liberals sure are good at insulting people, backing up their BS with facts, not so much

You got that right. Libs think name calling is a form of debate.

>China is already starting to dump our debt as fast as they can off load it,

Yes they are, along with some other countries. The msm seems to have "missed" the story. What is next, panic selling? I think china needs the cash but whatever the reason, we have to come up with the money to cover it and if we can't borrow more cash we have to create it.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22404406 - 10/19/15 05:03 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:


It sure as hell don't look like Obama has lowered it, and the actual debt keeps going up, if you think that's "irrelevant" maybe you should look at Greece



First of all, you can see that debt as a percentage of GDP trends up with Republican presidents, and down with Democrat presidents.  Just look at the graph.

Second, debt IS irrelevant, unless you compare it with what you have.




You left wing 'bats all try to play semantics when you get caught making shit up. You always try to tell us obumble lowered the deficit but that is a lie made up by playing games with numbers and basically bullshitting us. He increased the debt more than 200 years of previous presidents and you try to tell us he lowered the deficit? Your pants are on fire.

Then, you come out with debt is irrelelant. Well guess what, we can't pay our present debt without shafting somebody. Who shall it be? You liberals are good at shafting people, should it be the ones who bought treasuries, or just foreigners that get the shaft? Or how about endless qe to make the debt smaller? What type of weasel trick can we use to get rid of the debt you tell us doesn't matter? Wait till a large percentage want to cash in their treasuries if you think it doesn't matter.




China is already starting to dump our debt as fast as they can off load it, they are starting to see what's happening






If the US economy is crumbling and China is "dumping our debt" as you put it, why then is the 10 yr treasury note sitting at 2.02228%, nearly a full point LOWER than it was when the Fed was still buying US treasuries back when QE was still going before October, 2014 when it ended?

Obviously, there's a VERY HEALTHY DEMAND to buy those treasuries which means China might just be making a mistake.  And, Genius, now where do they put all that money they have sitting in cash?  What sovereign debt is more stable, trustworthy and better investment grade than US Treasuries?

The fact is that our entire global economy is going through something that is new territory for us all ... As technology and cheap labor markets exude more and more pressure on developed nations and as more educated people desire fewer and fewer kids, it's creating a structural shift that goes way beyond the argument between socialism and capitalism.

Keep in mind, China is one big environmental disaster away from an absolute catastrophe and speaking as someone that's been there 3 times, I can tell you from first hand experience, it's coming soon.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22404479 - 10/19/15 05:19 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I had no idea that exploiting cheap labor and harsh working conditions were tennets of socialism, I guess I learned something today




Then  honestly, you're quite a bit dumber than I thought.  Under socialism, Government has 100% control over prices and wages and is in, as a result, a very strong position to exploit virtually anything they want including labor prices and working conditions.  That's the whole point of it.

Obviously, we don't have socialism in America or Western Europe for that matter.  We have a democracy driven blend of crony capitalism with strong safety nets provided through taxation and borrowing which is approved by freely elected officials. 

We have a curious form of corporatism ... where profits are privatized to the maximum extent and risks and long term liabilities are socialized or moved to government. 

Frankly, that has nothing to do with socialism.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22404505 - 10/19/15 05:26 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

China is buying gold, lol, it's cheap and with a collapsing dollar, it's the best investment right now

Oh, and btw, I've been to California so that makes ME an expert on them too


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22404510 - 10/19/15 05:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I had no idea that exploiting cheap labor and harsh working conditions were tennets of socialism, I guess I learned something today




Then  honestly, you're quite a bit dumber than I thought.  Under socialism, Government has 100% control over prices and wages and is in, as a result, a very strong position to exploit virtually anything they want including labor prices and working conditions.  That's the whole point of it.

Obviously, we don't have socialism in America or Western Europe for that matter.  We have a democracy driven blend of crony capitalism with strong safety nets provided through taxation and borrowing which is approved by freely elected officials. 

We have a curious form of corporatism ... where profits are privatized to the maximum extent and risks and long term liabilities are socialized or moved to government. 

Frankly, that has nothing to do with socialism.




So socialism allows govt to exploit its workers, and you want that here, good grief...

***insert personal attack here


--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22404539 - 10/19/15 05:35 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

China sold a micro position of US bonds, it's hardly worth mentioning.  China buys US and Euro bonds to keep their currency weak, it's not about making a great investment. 

They aren't going to dump US bonds, it would to counterproductive to their goal of being a exporting powerhouse.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22404542 - 10/19/15 05:36 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
China is buying gold, lol, it's cheap and with a collapsing dollar, it's the best investment right now

Oh, and btw, I've been to California so that makes ME an expert on them too




Let them buy all the gold they want.  It's the most volatile currency out there and probably headed below $800 before it bottoms out.  I agree with Buffett that gold is one of the dumbest ways to store wealth there is. 

BTW, gold is not an investment, it's speculation on a commodity.  Buying shares of a gold mining stock, however, could be seen as an investment. 

How exactly is the dollar "collapsing?"  If anything, gold has been what's collapsing over the last few years.  The dollar is very strong relative to other currencies right now.  Do you understand how the global currency markets work?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22404556 - 10/19/15 05:39 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

So socialism allows govt to exploit its workers, and you want that here, good grief...

***insert personal attack here




What have I ever said that indicates I want socialism in America?  There are enough people eon this thread that can help you identify that one statement, if it exists. Socialism is government ownership of all means of production, BTW.  Where have I advocated for that?

Do you just make shit up when  you're losing an argument?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: qman]
    #22404564 - 10/19/15 05:41 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
China sold a micro position of US bonds, it's hardly worth mentioning.  China buys US and Euro bonds to keep their currency weak, it's not about making a great investment. 

They aren't going to dump US bonds, it would to counterproductive to their goal of being a exporting powerhouse.




QFT!  The thought that China would want to weaken the economy of its strongest customer is beyond idiotic.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: qman]
    #22404580 - 10/19/15 05:45 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Its hardly a micro position, they have been selling steadily.

http://www.barrons.com/articles/SB50001424052748704097904577257030958775246

The dollar's share of China's huge cache of currency reserves has been slashed to a record low, the Wall Street Journal reports, to which it adds the world hasn't ended as a result.

But more recent data showing outright sales of U.S. securities by China suggests a less cavalier attitude would be in order. It isn't the end of the world, just a portent of what can happen when the biggest buyer of America's biggest export -- its IOUs denominated in dollars -- stops buying.

That would leave the Federal Reserve as lender of last resort to the U.S. government to fill the gap left by its biggest creditor. Think this Zimbabwe style of central-bank monetization of an unsustainable government debt can't happen in one of the world's major industrialized democracies? Well, it may be starting in Japan.

According to the Journal's crunching of the numbers, dollar assets comprised 54% of Beijing's $3 trillion-plus reserves as of last June 30, down from 74% as recently as the end of 2006. That's based on data on China's foreign-exchange reserves and the U.S. Treasury's latest survey international holdings of U.S. securities. Those numbers show an outright increase in China's holdings of U.S. securities, by $115 billion in the latest 12 months, to $1.726 trillion.

Beijing has made no secret of its desire to diversify from greenback assets -- mainly U.S. Treasuries -- and for the establishment of another reserve currency to use as a store of wealth and for international transactions. The European sovereign debt crisis has reduced the allure of the euro for those purposes. While Beijing has voiced limited support for the various schemes to ease Europe's woes, it has added to its holdings of other, smaller currencies, such as the Australian dollar.

But more recent Treasury data show China has been selling Treasuries outright. And while the markets have been complacent to the point of snarkiness, MacroMavens' Stephanie Pomboy thinks that's wrong. Unlike other Cassandras, she's been right in her warnings -- notably in the middle of the last decade that the U.S. financial system was dangerously exposed to a bubble in U.S. real estate. Hers was a lonely voice then because everybody knew, of course, house prices always rose.

As for the present conundrum, there's an $800 billion gap between the $1.1 trillion the Treasury is borrowing to cover the budget gap and the roughly $300 billion overseas investors are buying, Pomboy calculates. Banks, corporations and households have been doing little to fill that gap, preferring higher-yielding securities, so "it would appear the heavy lifting has been done by long-only bond managers extending duration and specs rushing to cover their shorts," she writes.

But Pomboy has little doubt that the Fed will step in to fill the gap left by others. In other words, debt monetization, a fancy term for printing money to cover the government's debts, which in polite circles these days is called "quantitative easing."


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22404582 - 10/19/15 05:45 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
You left wing 'bats all try to play semantics when you get caught making shit up. You always try to tell us obumble lowered the deficit but that is a lie made up by playing games with numbers and basically bullshitting us. He increased the debt more than 200 years of previous presidents and you try to tell us he lowered the deficit? Your pants are on fire.



It's your side that is playing semantics games with you.  If the debt to GDP ratio is going down, the country's debt situation is improving, even if debt is still going up.  I personally would love to see debt eliminated, but we'll never get there if Republicans start new wars while CUTTING taxes at the same time; that's the idiocy of the GOP.  Either cut spending, increase taxes, or both; there is no other choice.

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
You liberals are good at shafting people, should it be the ones who bought treasuries, or just foreigners that get the shaft? Or how about endless qe to make the debt smaller? What type of weasel trick can we use to get rid of the debt



No tricks. Taxes are the only way to pay down our existing debt.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22404598 - 10/19/15 05:48 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Socialism is government ownership of all means of production, BTW.




Not specifically.  It's defined by social ownership of the means of production.  Worker owned businesses such as Mondragon Corporation in Spain are just as much a socialist model as China's state ownership model.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: qman]
    #22404600 - 10/19/15 05:49 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
China sold a micro position of US bonds, it's hardly worth mentioning.  China buys US and Euro bonds to keep their currency weak, it's not about making a great investment. 

They aren't going to dump US bonds, it would to counterproductive to their goal of being a exporting powerhouse.




China has sold 200 billion this year alone, that about 15% of their holdings, that's a lot, it's probably due to their wanting to prop up their economy, but as an economic powerhouse, it's hard to believe they didn't have other options


--------------------
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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22404605 - 10/19/15 05:50 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

>No tricks. Taxes are the only way to pay down our existing debt.

Sorry but that is no longer possible. Even if we taxed the middle class at 50% and the upper class at 90%, it would not be enough to pay it off and if interest rates shoot up, it may not be enough to pay the interest.

>If the debt to GDP ratio is going down, the country's debt situation is improving, even if debt is still going up

But it isn't. Obumble has more than doubled the debt but gdp has not doubled, its barely gone up. The rest is fake figures which you gladly accept as long as it supports liberal policy. Or lack of policy in 'bumbles case.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22404630 - 10/19/15 05:54 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
You left wing 'bats all try to play semantics when you get caught making shit up. You always try to tell us obumble lowered the deficit but that is a lie made up by playing games with numbers and basically bullshitting us. He increased the debt more than 200 years of previous presidents and you try to tell us he lowered the deficit? Your pants are on fire.



It's your side that is playing semantics games with you.  If the debt to GDP ratio is going down, the country's debt situation is improving, even if debt is still going up.  I personally would love to see debt eliminated, but we'll never get there if Republicans start new wars while CUTTING taxes at the same time; that's the idiocy of the GOP.  Either cut spending, increase taxes, or both; there is no other choice.

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
You liberals are good at shafting people, should it be the ones who bought treasuries, or just foreigners that get the shaft? Or how about endless qe to make the debt smaller? What type of weasel trick can we use to get rid of the debt



No tricks. Taxes are the only way to pay down our existing debt.




Obama had a socialist house and senate for two years, he could have raised all these taxes then, why didn't he? Was he too busy shoving a shitty healthcare plan down our throats or was it because he knew it would sink the economy, and his chance at reelection?


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22404645 - 10/19/15 05:56 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>No tricks. Taxes are the only way to pay down our existing debt.

Sorry but that is no longer possible. Even if we taxed the middle class at 50% and the upper class at 90%, it would not be enough to pay it off and if interest rates shoot up, it may not be enough to pay the interest.

>If the debt to GDP ratio is going down, the country's debt situation is improving, even if debt is still going up

But it isn't. Obumble has more than doubled the debt but gdp has not doubled, its barely gone up. The rest is fake figures which you gladly accept as long as it supports liberal policy. Or lack of policy in 'bumbles case.




I agree, our debt is unsustainable, only a matter of time til we default, both parties are to blame, we will be like Greece and it's gonna fucking hurt, or worse yet, Venezuela


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22404646 - 10/19/15 05:56 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

qman said:
China sold a micro position of US bonds, it's hardly worth mentioning.  China buys US and Euro bonds to keep their currency weak, it's not about making a great investment. 

They aren't going to dump US bonds, it would to counterproductive to their goal of being a exporting powerhouse.




China has sold 200 billion this year alone, that about 15% of their holdings, that's a lot, it's probably due to their wanting to prop up their economy, but as an economic powerhouse, it's hard to believe they didn't have other options




The capital markets are happily buying them up and interest rates are dropping. 

WTF do you worry so much?    TRILLIONS of dollars in global currencies are traded EVERY SINGLE DAY.  The global derivatives market is now over 850 Trillion dollars. 

200 Billion in treasuries that are eagerly bought up is not an indication of gloom and doom.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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