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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22403529 - 10/19/15 01:11 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
> Unlike Bush who started a bunch of new wars while CUTTING taxes.  What a moron.  Of course the deficit went up

Unlike you guys hero obumble who not only started but continued wars he promised to end and ran up the deficit more than any other president. I can't believe you have the nerve to talk about bush and deficits after what your man did.

But of course, none of the liberals ever supported obumble, he must have won on conservative votes.






Like all liberal Presidents before him, he is reversing the Republican trend of deficit growth.  :shrug:




Obama has created more debt than every single president before him, the deficit is irrelevant if the debt keeps going up, which it has, since the 50's

And Bill oreilly doesn't think America will vote in an avowed socialist

http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/19/bill-oreilly-says-bernie-sanders-has-no-chance-to-win-the-nomination-video/


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22403536 - 10/19/15 01:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
He's gonna get those evil 1%'rs! Not in the one percent? So you're safe, right? You're gonna get all the benefits and none of the cost, right? WRONG!

Here's the "man" himself, and I use that term loosely, saying he's gonna go after more than just the one percent, he's gonna tax whoever he wants too...

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/maher-skewers-sanders-how-can-the-country-afford-your-plan-video/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=mattkibbe



I watched that Bill Maher episode, and the author of your article is completely lying.  Maher didn't "slide a dagger" into Bernie; Bill LOVES Bernie.  Maher's point was to ensure Bernie explained his positions so that doubters understand.  And Bernie responded.  In fact, it's a reflection of Bernie's honesty that he said "we may have to tax people a little under the 1%, but not far under."




The thing is, Bernie just reiterates the same fucking shit over and over and over again. I wish he would have actually had a more intellectual/engaging discussion. Democratic Socialism is not at odds with Capitalism really. That should have been better explained. He shouldn't be trying to drive a wedge between these two ideologies.

In the debate Bernie said he is not a Capitalist. Ironically, he is! He is not trying to do away with Capitalism.




There's a big push in the Sanders subreddit for Bernie to stop exclaiming the message, and start explaining the message.

All he needs to do is draw parallels to FDR, The New Deal, and how we emerged from the Great Depression a stronger nation, both socially and economically. He's letting the media pigeon hole him on democratic socialism because he's not being descriptive enough.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22403544 - 10/19/15 01:15 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Obama has created more debt than every single president before him, the deficit is irrelevant if the debt keeps going up, which it has, since the 50's



Debt as a percentage of GDP is what's relevant, and that's what I posted in the graph above.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22403614 - 10/19/15 01:34 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Obama has created more debt than every single president before him, the deficit is irrelevant if the debt keeps going up, which it has, since the 50's



Debt as a percentage of GDP is what's relevant, and that's what I posted in the graph above.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Obama has created more debt than every single president before him, the deficit is irrelevant if the debt keeps going up, which it has, since the 50's



Debt as a percentage of GDP is what's relevant, and that's what I posted in the graph above.




It sure as hell don't look like Obama has lowered it, and the actual debt keeps going up, if you think that's "irrelevant" maybe you should look at Greece


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22403627 - 10/19/15 01:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I love how we can't look at any successes of socialism abroad because nations are so different, but we can damn sure look at Greece for its (socialism's) supposed failures.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22403684 - 10/19/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

So what socialist country should we emulate? What socialist country is most similar to the US?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22403703 - 10/19/15 01:56 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
So what socialist country should we emulate? What socialist country is most similar to the US?




Canada? Or you could argue the United States.

What exactly would tip us over the edge into being a "socialist country" in your opinion? A single payer healthcare system?


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InvisibleAstral Pain
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22403763 - 10/19/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Hillary and Jeb will bring even more big money into the political system if elected. 

I love the idea of presidential candidates having to wear patches on their clothing at the debates that tell us where their money is coming from.  The more money they get from one corporation, the bigger the patch.

Kinda llike Nascar drivers.









  I heard that 77% of Bernie's donations were in the $200 or below category, and that would equal voters, as opposed to the handful of Hillary donors which gets he shit for votes. Her trump card is the media.

You could make the same comparison with Trump/Bush in regards to Voter Support/Donors. That's off the charts as well.


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"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out"               
                -Bill Hicks-

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22403770 - 10/19/15 02:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

So you would argue the US already is a socialist nation?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Astral Pain]
    #22403772 - 10/19/15 02:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

His average donation is $26.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22403779 - 10/19/15 02:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
So you would argue the US already is a socialist nation?




I wouldn't, but others could. Our government isn't set up that much different from the "socialist" ones.

The simple fact is that there really isn't any socialist nations. Some programs are socialized, sure, but private industry still not only exists, but dominates these nations.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22403788 - 10/19/15 02:19 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
So you would argue the US already is a socialist nation?




I wouldn't, but others could. Our government isn't set up that much different from the "socialist" ones.

The simple fact is that there really isn't any socialist nations. Some programs are socialized, sure, but private industry still not only exists, but dominates these nations.




18 trillion in debt, subpar education, rampant crime, open borders, corrupt politicians, and the list goes on and on and on

I would argue socialism has already failed here, what we need is less of it, not more


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22403793 - 10/19/15 02:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:


It sure as hell don't look like Obama has lowered it, and the actual debt keeps going up, if you think that's "irrelevant" maybe you should look at Greece



First of all, you can see that debt as a percentage of GDP trends up with Republican presidents, and down with Democrat presidents.  Just look at the graph.

Second, debt IS irrelevant, unless you compare it with what you have.  Sure, let's look at Greece.  Their debt to GDP is going through the roof:



If their GDP suddenly doubled, the same level of debt wouldn't be nearly as bad.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22403823 - 10/19/15 02:25 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
18 trillion in debt, subpar education, rampant crime, open borders, corrupt politicians, and the list goes on and on and on

I would argue socialism has already failed here, what we need is less of it, not more



Those things aren't due to us being "socialist".  The debt is due to the Reagan tax cuts (see graph above).  Crime hasn't gotten worse in recent history.  Open borders have nothing to do with Socialism (see USSR as evidence).

You don't seem to understand what you're talking about.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/19/15 03:33 PM)


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22403875 - 10/19/15 02:38 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
18 trillion in debt, subpar education, rampant crime, open borders, corrupt politicians, and the list goes on and on and on

I would argue socialism has already failed here, what we need is less of it, not more



Those things aren't do to us being "socialist".  The debt is due to the Reagan tax cuts (see graph above).  Crime hasn't gotten worse in recent history.  Open borders have nothing to do with Socialism (see USSR as evidence).

You don't seem to understand what you're talking about.




Wow, that's kind of a dickish comment

The fact is if you think debt is irrelevant, youre very ignorant, current interest payments on the debt are 225 billion/year, expected to double by 2019, and if interest rates go up, well nobody likes "what ifs"

Think of all the great social spending, infrastructure and education we could do with 225 BILLION DOLLARS, that my good friend, is the true cost of "debt"


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22403886 - 10/19/15 02:40 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
18 trillion in debt, subpar education, rampant crime, open borders, corrupt politicians, and the list goes on and on and on

I would argue socialism has already failed here, what we need is less of it, not more



Those things aren't do to us being "socialist".  The debt is due to the Reagan tax cuts (see graph above).  Crime hasn't gotten worse in recent history.  Open borders have nothing to do with Socialism (see USSR as evidence).

You don't seem to understand what you're talking about.




The most "thriving" global economy as is often measured, at least in terms of consistent growth has got to be China ... and yet, the poverty and illiteracy levels there are still very high ... Why are they "thriving?"  Because of cheap labor and an acceptance by a huge number of workers and government officials, of near slave labor level conditions in order to attract investment.

Interestingly, China insists on business models that are much closer to socialism than anything that has ever happened in the United States and their economy is growing rapidly and they are generating a surplus. 

Some might say ... "hey, it's capitalism that's lifting the tide in China!!!"  ... In reality, it's the ability for business and government, working together, to exploit extremely cheap labor and enforce some of the harshest working conditions imaginable on workers.


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"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22403931 - 10/19/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I had no idea that exploiting cheap labor and harsh working conditions were tennets of socialism, I guess I learned something today


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22404111 - 10/19/15 03:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
18 trillion in debt, subpar education, rampant crime, open borders, corrupt politicians, and the list goes on and on and on

I would argue socialism has already failed here, what we need is less of it, not more



Those things aren't due to us being "socialist".  The debt is due to the Reagan tax cuts (see graph above).  Crime hasn't gotten worse in recent history.  Open borders have nothing to do with Socialism (see USSR as evidence).

You don't seem to understand what you're talking about.




:thumbup:


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22404122 - 10/19/15 03:39 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

So now that you've made the assumption that debt = socialism, you're trying to walk back the idea of American capitalism and it's rampant debt by claiming its all socialism's fault.

Fal is right, you don't know what you're talking about. Even if everything you perceive to be causing the debt is actually doing so, that has nothing to do with socialism.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22404142 - 10/19/15 03:46 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Business and government working together to exploit labor sounds like crony capitalism to me :shrug:

Anyway I don't think we've seen a fully democtatic socialist society and probably won't for a few more decades.  I think Norway is the closest.  There's several mixed economies, even the U.S. has some Socialism.

I agree with Reddit.  Bernie needs to explain the difference.  Safety nets and Democratic Socialism tend to go hand in hand but so do peanut butter and jelly.  Doesn't make them the same.


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Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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