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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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hostileuniverse said: If we cut spending, we would have enough to pay down the debt, that's a fact
Of course. Now both sides have to agree on what to cut. And until they agree, taxes can't go down.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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hostileuniverse said: Why can't we cut spending?
Because for the last 60+ years we have been on a steady path of privatizing more and more of the profits and socializing more and more of the long term risks and costs of running our country of over 330 million people. This is driven by ever increasing collusion between government and business that has been bad for a long time, but went into turbo-drive with Reagan's administration. The money it takes now to get elected has given the global corporatocracy a controlling interest in our political process.
That's the truth. Blame it on liberals or conservatives if you wish ... both sides are participating in this deception and ultimate railroading of the taxpayer.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22408872 - 10/20/15 11:19 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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hostileuniverse said: If we cut spending, we would have enough to pay down the debt, that's a fact
Of course. Now both sides have to agree on what to cut. And until they agree, taxes can't go down. 
It's much easier to "agree" on more spending than less spending ... that is reality. Both sides prefer it when spending increases.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 2 hours, 23 minutes
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca] 1
#22408900 - 10/20/15 11:27 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: Why can't we cut spending?
Because for the last 60+ years we have been on a steady path of privatizing more and more of the profits and socializing more and more of the long term risks and costs of running our country of over 330 million people. This is driven by ever increasing collusion between government and business that has been bad for a long time, but went into turbo-drive with Reagan's administration. The money it takes now to get elected has given the global corporatocracy a controlling interest in our political process.
That's the truth. Blame it on liberals or conservatives if you wish ... both sides are participating in this deception and ultimate railroading of the taxpayer.
As long as we're being frank: The demographic changes in this country mean the conservatives, lest they reverse their entire agenda, need that money more than the Democrats do.
And for that reason alone, we should be ignoring the GOP completely. Nothing will be solved, no matter the problem nor what you think the solution may be, until we reform campaign finance. There's few independents seriously calling for it, even fewer Democrats, but zero Republicans.
That's why Bernie Sanders should be every serious American's choice. Regardless of what you think about any of his other agenda items, he's the only legitimate candidate campaigning to fix our broken election system. You hate his social policy? His foreign policy? His accent? Fine. Work on reversing those decisions in 2018/20, but we aren't going to be able to solve shit if we don't have serious campaign finance reform.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#22408933 - 10/20/15 11:35 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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The Ecstatic said:
That's why Bernie Sanders should be every serious American's choice. Regardless of what you think about any of his other agenda items, he's the only legitimate candidate campaigning to fix our broken election system. You hate his social policy? His foreign policy? His accent? Fine. Work on reversing those decisions in 2018/20, but we aren't going to be able to solve shit if we don't have serious campaign finance reform.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly!
I would imagine, with the perspective of time (maybe another 100 years or so) the Supreme Court Decision of Citizens United vs. The FEC will be seen as the worst Supreme Court decision in American History. I can think of no SC decision that is more UN-AMERICAN than this one. It takes the prize.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
Edited by KauaiOrca (10/20/15 11:36 AM)
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Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>The numbers from Obama's first term are attributable to Bush.
Lol, the left's favorite excuse, its all bush's fault. Your chump spent some $8T or however much it was and the economy is still limping along, is in recession according to some estimates. Is that bush's fault too? When will he and you fan boys finally man up and admit its obumble's fault ever?
You like to play shell games with numbers, claiming debt doesn't matter, lol at that one, and twisting things around to make the chump look a little bit better. You can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig.
Sanders is more of the same, another career politician with no clue about business who wants more and more handouts for the usual suspects. A dem in disguise.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 2 hours, 23 minutes
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22409025 - 10/20/15 12:01 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said:
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The Ecstatic said:
That's why Bernie Sanders should be every serious American's choice. Regardless of what you think about any of his other agenda items, he's the only legitimate candidate campaigning to fix our broken election system. You hate his social policy? His foreign policy? His accent? Fine. Work on reversing those decisions in 2018/20, but we aren't going to be able to solve shit if we don't have serious campaign finance reform.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly!
I would imagine, with the perspective of time (maybe another 100 years or so) the Supreme Court Decision of Citizens United vs. The FEC will be seen as the worst Supreme Court decision in American History. I can think of no SC decision that is more UN-AMERICAN than this one. It takes the prize.
There are a few other SCOTUS precursors that cleared some hurdles for the eventual CU ruling, but yeah I agree this will be regarded as that moment.
If 9/11 is our Reichstag Fire, then CU is our Enabling Act.
Ok clumsy analogy but don't think about it too hard
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 1 hour, 48 minutes
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: We can and should. But I'll repeat "Even if spending were cut to $0, the debt would continue to go up because of interest. We have to collect enough taxes to pay both the interest and the principal..."
The funny thing is... most of the Federal Government's debt is owed to the top 1%. They gave them tax breaks and then borrowed the lost tax revenue from them with interest! lmao
I'd be more concerned if the debt was owed to foreign countries.
Another thing to think about is: if the gov't has to borrow from 1%-ers, that gives them even more control that just campaign contributions.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Stonehenge]
#22409059 - 10/20/15 12:15 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The numbers from Obama's first term are attributable to Bush.
Lol, the left's favorite excuse, its all bush's fault.
No, I didn't say "it's all Bush's fault". I said "the numbers from Obama's first term are attributable to Bush". You can only win an argument if you make things up.
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Stonehenge said: You like to play shell games with numbers, claiming debt doesn't matter, lol at that one, and twisting things around to make the chump look a little bit better.
I can't believe you fail to understand that debt to GDP is more relevant than debt. But I guess it's not surprising that a conservative doesn't understand math or economics.
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Stonehenge said: Sanders is more of the same, another career politician with no clue about business who wants more and more handouts for the usual suspects. A dem in disguise.
Funny that you just accused me of twisting things around, but you're the one that does that. Bernie wants things like better care for our veterans, a living wage for workers, affordable education, etc.
If you're against those things, fine. But please be honest about the issues.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 1 hour, 48 minutes
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22409062 - 10/20/15 12:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly!
I would imagine, with the perspective of time (maybe another 100 years or so) the Supreme Court Decision of Citizens United vs. The FEC will be seen as the worst Supreme Court decision in American History. I can think of no SC decision that is more UN-AMERICAN than this one. It takes the prize.
I think it is perfectly 'American'. At least post-Reagan America.
And yes, it was a terrible decision on principle. From a legal standpoint I think CU can be legitimately argued for, and against. It's a difficult situation, as we've seen in some other threads around here!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 2 hours, 23 minutes
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22409068 - 10/20/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: We can and should. But I'll repeat "Even if spending were cut to $0, the debt would continue to go up because of interest. We have to collect enough taxes to pay both the interest and the principal..."
The funny thing is... most of the Federal Government's debt is owed to the top 1%. They gave them tax breaks and then borrowed the lost tax revenue from them with interest! lmao
I'd be more concerned if the debt was owed to foreign countries.
Another thing to think about is: if the gov't has to borrow from 1%-ers, that gives them even more control that just campaign contributions.
The banks control so much of our nation's capital they can pretty much bring around a recession whenever they want.
Oh Bernie got his updated Glass Steagall bill through Congress? Well we're gonna get the Fed to raise interest rates and put everyone into a panic, or just pull credit from the market altogether.
Then everyone's reaction will be "See?! Bernie's pie in the sky agenda is ruining America!"
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 1 hour, 48 minutes
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22409098 - 10/20/15 12:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: We can and should. But I'll repeat "Even if spending were cut to $0, the debt would continue to go up because of interest. We have to collect enough taxes to pay both the interest and the principal..."
The funny thing is... most of the Federal Government's debt is owed to the top 1%. They gave them tax breaks and then borrowed the lost tax revenue from them with interest! lmao
I'd be more concerned if the debt was owed to foreign countries.
Another thing to think about is: if the gov't has to borrow from 1%-ers, that gives them even more control that just campaign contributions.
The banks control so much of our nation's capital they can pretty much bring around a recession whenever they want.
Oh Bernie got his updated Glass Steagall bill through Congress? Well we're gonna get the Fed to raise interest rates and put everyone into a panic, or just pull credit from the market altogether.
Then everyone's reaction will be "See?! Bernie's pie in the sky agenda is ruining America!"
We're going to see a lot of that when Bernie becomes president.
We're going to see a lot of people taking more interest in the details of politics too, I believe. I can see Bernie just coming out and detailing all of the bullshit to the people regularly, and encouraging people to be active and do something about it. I think he will be an interactive president.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22409101 - 10/20/15 12:28 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
I think it is perfectly 'American'. At least post-Reagan America.
Like him or hate him, Ronnie brought us the era of the corporate president that just keeps getting worse and worse.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#22409113 - 10/20/15 12:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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The Ecstatic said:
The banks control so much of our nation's capital they can pretty much bring around a recession whenever they want.
I saw an interesting analysis not long ago about how much financial leverage Putin and his pals can access when they really want to cause problems in global markets. It's over 150 TRILLION when you take into consideration the total derivatives leverage he can tap into.
Think about that ... then think about what American banks can do ...
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 2 hours, 23 minutes
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22409130 - 10/20/15 12:34 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
The banks control so much of our nation's capital they can pretty much bring around a recession whenever they want.
I saw an interesting analysis not long ago about how much financial leverage Putin and his pals can access when they really want to cause problems in global markets. It's over 150 TRILLION when you take into consideration the total derivatives leverage he can tap into.
Think about that ... then think about what American banks can do ...
Exactly, Putin is a Chihuahua compared to the Siberian huskies like the IMF, World Bank, Fed, Goldman, etc.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 1 hour, 48 minutes
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22409147 - 10/20/15 12:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
The banks control so much of our nation's capital they can pretty much bring around a recession whenever they want.
I saw an interesting analysis not long ago about how much financial leverage Putin and his pals can access when they really want to cause problems in global markets. It's over 150 TRILLION when you take into consideration the total derivatives leverage he can tap into.
Think about that ... then think about what American banks can do ...
I don't even understand what derivative markets are exactly. You should break it down, buddy.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22409181 - 10/20/15 12:47 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
I don't even understand what derivative markets are exactly. You should break it down, buddy.
Options in the equity markets are a type of derivatives. When two people trade currencies back and forth, it's generally with a derivative contract. They can be pretty complicated by essentially a derivative is a contract between two people, a bet so to speak ... on which way a particular market stat will go. You don't really own anything but the leverage behind the bet. For instance, with $100,000 you can make a bet on the direction of the dollar and the leverage could easily allow you to bet on $5,000,000 worth of currency to, in effect, generate bigger movements on the bet. This is what options are all about. There are many types of derivatives, but that's a simple way of understanding them.
There is MUCH MORE trading with derivatives than with real securities like stocks and bonds because you can tap into much more leverage with less capital. This is essentially how trillions and trillions are traded each day in the Forex markets.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 1 hour, 48 minutes
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22409204 - 10/20/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
I don't even understand what derivative markets are exactly. You should break it down, buddy.
Options in the equity markets are a type of derivatives. When two people trade currencies back and forth, it's generally with a derivative contract. They can be pretty complicated by essentially a derivative is a contract between two people, a bet so to speak ... on which way a particular market stat will go. You don't really own anything but the leverage behind the bet. For instance, with $100,000 you can make a bet on the direction of the dollar and the leverage could easily allow you to bet on $5,000,000 worth of currency to, in effect, generate bigger movements on the bet. This is what options are all about. There are many types of derivatives, but that's a simple way of understanding them.
There is MUCH MORE trading with derivatives than with real securities like stocks and bonds because you can tap into much more leverage with less capital. This is essentially how trillions and trillions are traded each day in the Forex markets.
I see. So it's a form of educated betting, I guess. Currency trading has always seemed ridiculous to me. Converting your money when it's low, and trading back when it's high. Talk about unproductive wealth creation.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Count of Sabugosa
Nerdy floater



Registered: 08/20/15
Posts: 939
Last seen: 7 months, 28 days
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: As long as we're being frank: The demographic changes in this country mean the conservatives, lest they reverse their entire agenda, need that money more than the Democrats do.
I don't know if any political pundit could have put it in a better way.
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I'd be more concerned if the debt was owed to foreign countries.
And you'd be rightfully best concerned.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: No, I didn't say "it's all Bush's fault". I said "the numbers from Obama's first term are attributable to Bush". You can only win an argument if you make things up.
And, once again, there is a reason, naturally a result of previous administrations going way back, and I would love to see it mentioned.
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And yes, it was a terrible decision on principle.
On principle, exactly. It's a shame politics work better with games of interest, manipulation, speculation, and fear. This is why CU has more than a leg on which to stand in legal terms.
Anyway, BigBadWolf, your optimism is refreshing
-------------------- In Hebrew, the words "wine" and "secret" hold the same numerologic value. When wine comes in, secrets spill out. Do you think the person who said that knew mushrooms? When mushrooms come in... Is there anything beyond a secret?
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