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Stonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>You just made that up, didn't you?
No, its absolutely true that obumble has more than doubled the nat debt and the gnp has not gone up anywhere near 100%. If you have anything to refute that we will take a look but we already know its true.
>We've been in this position before and came out of it just fine, until Reagan cut taxes and reversed the downward trend
We have never had 18T of debt. Never had over 100% debt to gnp like this. Our gnp in 08 was 14.89T now its 16.99. Is that twice as much using liberal logic?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Count of Sabugosa
Nerdy floater



Registered: 08/20/15
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Stonehenge]
#22405520 - 10/19/15 08:53 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: No, its absolutely true that obumble has more than doubled the nat debt and the gnp has not gone up anywhere near 100%. If you have anything to refute that we will take a look but we already know its true.
When a guy's right, a guy's right, but why did it double? There are correlations ignored, as usual.
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We have never had 18T of debt. Never had over 100% debt to gnp like this. Our gnp in 08 was 14.89T now its 16.99. Is that twice as much using liberal logic?
No, we had a severe depression, multiple stock-holders suicides, increase in crime, extreme poverty, despair, loss of property due to loan sharking. But of course, this ARE the worst of our times (yawn).
-------------------- In Hebrew, the words "wine" and "secret" hold the same numerologic value. When wine comes in, secrets spill out. Do you think the person who said that knew mushrooms? When mushrooms come in... Is there anything beyond a secret?
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Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>No, we had a severe depression, multiple stock-holders suicides, increase in crime, extreme poverty, despair, loss of property due to loan sharking.
Your hero said it was a recession not a depression and its been over for a long time. He sees no sign of recession at the golf club. This is socialist utopia, citizen. You must not complain or be sent to a reeducation camp.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Count of Sabugosa
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Stonehenge]
#22405616 - 10/19/15 09:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Your hero said it was a recession not a depression and its been over for a long time. He sees no sign of recession at the golf club. This is socialist utopia, citizen. You must not complain or be sent to a reeducation camp.
haha I don't recall having a politician considered a hero to me, like ever, like. But we are not talking about just 2007, the first part was in the thirties and it had everything to do with ficticious stock market money.
But I do love when you say things that I know not even you believe, comrade. hahhahahahaahah
-------------------- In Hebrew, the words "wine" and "secret" hold the same numerologic value. When wine comes in, secrets spill out. Do you think the person who said that knew mushrooms? When mushrooms come in... Is there anything beyond a secret?
Edited by Count of Sabugosa (10/19/15 09:14 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Stonehenge]
#22406825 - 10/20/15 12:13 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: obumble has more than doubled the nat debt and the gnp has not gone up anywhere near 100%. If you have anything to refute that we will take a look but we already know its true.
A president's first year numbers are always attributed to the previous administration. Why?
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The President doesn't really have much control over the debt added during his first year in office. That's because the budget for that fiscal year was already set by the previous President.
There are plenty of websites that confirm the above, and even conservatives here have agreed with that.
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Stonehenge said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: We've been in this position before and came out of it just fine, until Reagan cut taxes and reversed the downward trend
We have never had 18T of debt.
Once again, it's not the amount of debt that matters. It's the debt to GDP ratio that's important. That' why Greece is doing worse than the US even though they have less than 5% of our debt. Do you not get that?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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KauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Once again, it's not the amount of debt that matters. It's the debt to GDP ratio that's important. That' why Greece is doing worse than the US even though they have less than 5% of our debt. Do you not get that?
An analysis of Reagan (the GOP Messiah) and the impact of Reaganomics is interesting as it relates to this ....
* Size. Economists measure government deficits not in absolute terms but in relation to the GNP. That's only common sense: as GNP expands we can afford more debt, and if the debt is growing slower than the economy as a whole, we're in good shape. Under Reagan, however, the federal deficit expanded from 2.6% of GNP to 5.3% in 1986 (before falling somewhat in 1987), adding more than $1 trillion in red ink to our national accounts. Worse, this growth took place not during wartime or depression but in a period of peace and prosperity. That's when the national debt is supposed to shrink.
* Persistence. Reagan came to Washington promising to cut taxes and federal spending. He cut taxes. But spending rose both in absolute terms and as a share of GNP. Was it Congress's fault? Nope, says Friedman: total government outlays between 1982 and 1987 averaged only $15 billion a year more than what Reagan requested. That accounts for only 8% of the accumulated deficits.
* Effects. In the past, the government financed its deficits mostly by selling bonds to American investors. This time it has borrowed from the rest of the world. The result: by the end of 1987 the United States had completed a fast transition from the world's largest creditor to the world's largest debtor, owing foreign investors roughly $400 billion. What made the borrowing possible was high interest rates, which themselves may have been caused by the big deficits (see "On Deficits and Interest Rates," page 3). With foreigners happy to snap up high-yielding American assets, the dollar remained high, making imports cheap and damaging the competitive position of U.S. manufacturers. We therefore ran up huge trade deficits and provided overseas investors with ever-increasing quantities of dollars to lend us.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22408223 - 10/20/15 08:59 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Great post. Reagan also ended middle class growth with trickle down economics (give everything to the rich with the promise that it would trickle down).

The chart above shows how all new wealth created after 1980 went to the 1%.
I'm surprised that anyone bought into the "give everything to the rich and watch it trickle down" theory, but what's even more surprising is that there are some conservatives who still believe in it (maybe they imagine they'll be in the 1% someday?)
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>Once again, it's not the amount of debt that matters.
Because you say so? Debt does matter no matter how many libs think it doesn't.
>It's the debt to GDP ratio that's important.
That is a factor but far from the only one. Since our debt shot up under your man obumble, and gdp is up only a little, doesn't it show that since the fumbler took over our debt to gdp has gotten worse? We know debt has gotten a lot worse but lefties don't worry about a little thing like that do you?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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qman
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Great post. Reagan also ended middle class growth with trickle down economics (give everything to the rich with the promise that it would trickle down).

The chart above shows how all new wealth created after 1980 went to the 1%.
I'm surprised that anyone bought into the "give everything to the rich and watch it trickle down" theory, but what's even more surprising is that there are some conservatives who still believe in it (maybe they imagine they'll be in the 1% someday?)
I believe the 1% really haven't moved at all if you eliminated the 1/10 and 1/100 of 1% ers in that equation. Which is even a worse sign because the wealth is going into fewer and fewer hands.
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KauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: qman]
#22408393 - 10/20/15 09:24 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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qman said:
I believe the 1% really haven't moved at all if you eliminated the 1/10 and 1/100 of 1% ers in that equation. Which is even a worse sign because the wealth is going into fewer and fewer hands.
^^^^^^^^ This!
And two other factors ...
1) The jobs are being created but they are being created in cheap overseas labor markets 2) Corporations are making more and more money but it is finding its way OUT of the US economy for several important reasons. Profits up, jobs up, but not in America.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Stonehenge]
#22408473 - 10/20/15 09:42 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: >Once again, it's not the amount of debt that matters.
Because you say so? Debt does matter no matter how many libs think it doesn't.
>It's the debt to GDP ratio that's important.
That is a factor but far from the only one. Since our debt shot up under your man obumble, and gdp is up only a little, doesn't it show that since the fumbler took over our debt to gdp has gotten worse? We know debt has gotten a lot worse but lefties don't worry about a little thing like that do you?
Debt and deficits only matter when there is a republican in office, surely you must have learned that by now
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KauaiOrca
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hostileuniverse said:
Debt and deficits only matter when there is a republican in office, surely you must have learned that by now
The Reagan vision of privatizing more and more of America's wealth and power was realized and it led us to where we are today. Corporations and the top 1% have hoarded our wealth so they can use wealth itself to create more wealth without really putting it to work into the economy.
Capitalism is about fair competition, corporatism is about eliminating competition ... that's what Reagan gave us.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Count of Sabugosa
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Debt and deficits only matter when there is a republican in office, surely you must have learned that by now
As I well recall it, the matter was how Reps spend the money, especially in the industrial military complex.
BUT it does matter, even in the case of President Obama (I hate Bush - the figure, I don't know him to hate him - but I never stopped calling him president. It seems to absolve him of his duties, but that's just me).
All I am saying is that the why and how also matter. But yes, Obama two-fold increased foreign debt and no, that is never good.
-------------------- In Hebrew, the words "wine" and "secret" hold the same numerologic value. When wine comes in, secrets spill out. Do you think the person who said that knew mushrooms? When mushrooms come in... Is there anything beyond a secret?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: Stonehenge]
#22408642 - 10/20/15 10:20 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
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KauaiOrca said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Once again, it's not the amount of debt that matters. It's the debt to GDP ratio that's important. That' why Greece is doing worse than the US even though they have less than 5% of our debt. Do you not get that?
Economists measure government deficits not in absolute terms but in relation to the GNP. That's only common sense: as GNP expands we can afford more debt, and if the debt is growing slower than the economy as a whole, we're in good shape.
Because you say so? Debt does matter no matter how many libs think it doesn't.
No. Please reread the above.
Debt to GDP is a better indicator of how bad a country's debt problem is than absolute debt. If a country is $100 billion in debt, is that bad? It depends on the country's GDP.
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Stonehenge said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: It's the debt to GDP ratio that's important.
That is a factor but far from the only one. Since our debt shot up under your man obumble, and gdp is up only a little, doesn't it show that since the fumbler took over our debt to gdp has gotten worse?
I've already responded on that. The numbers from Obama's first term are attributable to Bush. So yes, debt to GDP has been going down under Obama, as shown the graph above.
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Stonehenge said: We know debt has gotten a lot worse but lefties don't worry about a little thing like that do you?
Of course we worry about it, and we're saying we should raise taxes to pay it down. It's YOUR side that keeps saying "cut taxes". How can you pay down the debt if you don't raise the money to pay it down?
Even if spending were cut to $0, the debt would continue to go up because of interest. We have to collect enough taxes to pay both the interest and the principal (and our other bills).
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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KauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Of course we worry about it, and we're saying we should raise taxes to pay it down. It's YOUR side that keeps saying "cut taxes". How can you pay down the debt if you don't raise the money to pay it down?
Even if spending were cut to $0, the debt would continue to go up because of interest. We have to collect enough taxes to pay both the interest and the principal (and our other bills).
Good to keep in mind that Stonehenge's main interest is to simply bash Obama as much as possible, blame everything he can on him and call him "OBumble" at last 3x each post. That seems to give him an odd form of psychic satisfaction. He's not interested in a factual discussion.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Does Bernie Sanders have a chance? [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22408743 - 10/20/15 10:46 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Why can't we cut spending?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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We can and should. But I'll repeat "Even if spending were cut to $0, the debt would continue to go up because of interest. We have to collect enough taxes to pay both the interest and the principal..."
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: We can and should. But I'll repeat "Even if spending were cut to $0, the debt would continue to go up because of interest. We have to collect enough taxes to pay both the interest and the principal..."
If we cut spending, we would have enough to pay down the debt, that's a fact
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qman
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hostileuniverse said: Why can't we cut spending?
We cut the rate of spending and call that an accomplishment.
Either way, I believe Obama has the lowest rate of spending growth in over 60 years, he's fiscally responsible!!
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