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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22358632 - 10/10/15 11:05 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

there seems to be a conflux of religious ideology between doing good for one's neighbors but also doing good for one's religion against persecution, but not outright divisiveness between groups for the sake of it.

that's what confuses me though, religious persecution...i mean, many religions have done it. is this just a confusion of the scripture and teachings though? or is it intrinsic in the scripture and the teachings?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22358667 - 10/10/15 11:15 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I think that no matter the scripture or teachings, people will find a way to make it fit their world view.  If people want to persecute others, they will find a reason, religion just happens to be a convenient excuse.  Other excuses have and will in the future be used.  This may be learned behavior or it may be an inescapable part of human nature.  These sorts of questions are a little tricky, because someone has to teach a behavior in order for others to learn it, which begs the question: where did the first guy get the idea?


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22358682 - 10/10/15 11:18 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

the claim that religion fuels wars is overly simplistic, not because religion is flawless but because war is complicated, and behind both institutions looms the lust for power.

a good example from my recent studies is the case of the early germanic successor states during the fourth to eighth centuries. during the height of the roman empire, barbarian tribes were driven by the huns into western europe. starving, trying to stay one step ahead of outright slaughter, tribes wandered across roman lines, which often resulted in conflict, but also in cooperation; the federati were barbarian soldiers who protected roman outposts and fought for rome's client states at the edge of the roman frontier.  over time, the tribes began to form vast confederations, with rule within the confederations established via primogeniture. at the head of the confederations sat the "king". having fought for and alongside the romans, and having been integrated into roman society over time, the barbarian confederations thought of themselves as romans, and their kingdoms an extension of the empire - the typical image of a king is of a man wearing a red or purple cloak and a crown, both of which are roman symbols of power.

the germanic kingdoms sought endorsement of their aristocratic bloodlines from both the church and the rulers of the eastern empire (later byzantium). papal endorsement came on the condition of conversion to catholic christianity as the church attempted to purge heterodoxy and paganism from the west, with charlemagne's conquering of the saxons as a turning point. but the important thing to take notice of here is that in this case religion was more a means to an end for people in power, which seems to say a lot more about the problem of power and its abuses than the problem of religion and its flaws.


--------------------
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Edited by millzy (10/10/15 11:19 AM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22358694 - 10/10/15 11:20 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

exactly. that's the tricky part.

this is my thought process, summed up: War and Religion seems to be in a parity with each other only... (as far as i'm concerned at this juncture, trying to learn)...only in as far as they are entangled together with the origin of ideas concerning early development of civilization, and even furthermore, the drives of human nature's hatred towards people outside of one's own family, group, coalition, ect.

that's where i am trying to establish my thought process towards.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22358713 - 10/10/15 11:23 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

war is necessarily about power. religion is not, especially at the devotee level where it matters most, in my view.


--------------------
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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: millzy]
    #22358743 - 10/10/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
...in this case religion was more a means to an end for people in power, which seems to say a lot more about the problem of power and its abuses than the problem of religion and its flaws.



true.

interesting and well put together summation, thanks millzy, that's quite a crazy story you put forth for me.

so if absolute power corrupts absolutely, then what do the flaws in religion corrupt?

and why are people so obsessed with the seed of power, through religion, as opposed to the regulatory doctrines which would supposedly deride any such conquest for power?

i'd ask further, but then i think i'd be getting a bit too off-base.

why people crave power, innately, seems a no-brainer, but to summarize it seems to be unpalatable and probably too much to expound on.

how all this is conjoined with the idea of War, and it's premises, faults, fundamentals, fixtures, ect ect, i'd be all for more deliberation on.

but i'm going to sleep, so please, if you wish, discuss amongst yourselves if you'd wish, or leave me a last reply, if that's your fancy.

it's been an interesting discussion, i learned alot today. :awesome:


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: millzy]
    #22358845 - 10/10/15 11:52 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
the federati were barbarian soldiers who protected roman outposts and fought for rome's client states at the edge of the roman frontier.  over time, the tribes began to form vast confederations, with rule within the confederations established via primogeniture. at the head of the confederations sat the "king". having fought for and alongside the romans, and having been integrated into roman society over time, the barbarian confederations thought of themselves as romans, and their kingdoms an extension of the empire





The story of Arminius would be an interesting aside to your post.  I enjoy Creasy's account here:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4061/4061-h/4061-h.htm#link2HCH0005
Quote:

Dark and disheartening, even to heroic spirits, must have seemed the prospects of Germany when Arminius planned the general rising of his countrymen against Rome. Half the land was occupied by Roman garrisons; and, what was worse, many of the Germans seemed patiently acquiescent in their state of bondage. The braver portion, whose patriotism could be relied on, was ill-armed and undisciplined; while the enemy's troops consisted of veterans in the highest state of equipment and training, familiarized with victory, and commanded by officers of proved skill and valour. The resources of Rome seemed boundless; her tenacity of purpose was believed to be invincible. There was no hope of foreign sympathy or aid; for "the self-governing powers that had filled the old world, had bent one after another before the rising power of Rome, and had vanished. The earth seemed left void of independent nations." [Ranke.]

The (German) chieftain knew well the gigantic power of the oppressor. Arminius was no rude savage, fighting out of mere animal instinct, or in ignorance of the might of his adversary. He was familiar with the Roman language and civilization; he had served in the Roman armies; he had been admitted to the Roman citizenship, and raised to the dignity of the equestrian order. It was part of the subtle policy of Rome to confer rank and privileges on the youth of the leading families in the nations which she wished to enslave. Among other young German chieftains, Arminius and his brother, who were the heads of the noblest house in the tribe of the Cherusci, had been selected as fit objects for the exercise of this insidious system. Roman refinements and dignities succeeded in denationalizing the brother, who assumed the Roman name of Flavius, and adhered to Rome throughout all her wars against his country. Arminius remained unbought by honours or wealth, uncorrupted by refinement or luxury. He aspired to and obtained from Roman enmity a higher title than ever could have been given him by Roman favour. It is in the page of Rome's greatest historian, that his name has come down to us with the proud addition of "Liberator haud dubie Germaniae." [Tacitus, Annals, ii. 88.]

Often must the young chieftain, while meditating the exploit which has thus immortalised him, have anxiously revolved in his mind the fate of the many great men who had been crushed in the attempt which he was about to renew,—the attempt to stay the chariot-wheels of triumphant Rome. Could he hope to succeed where Hannibal and Mithridates had perished? What had been the doom of Viriathus? and what warning against vain valour was written on the desolate site where Numantia once had fourished? Nor was a caution wanting in scenes nearer home and in more recent times. The Gauls had fruitlessly struggled for eight years against Caesar; and the valiant Vercingetorix, who in the last year of the war had roused all his countrymen to insurrection, who had cut off Roman detachments, and brought Caesar himself to the extreme of peril at Alesia—he, too, had finally succumbed, had been led captive in Caesar's triumph, and had then been butchered in cold blood in a Roman dungeon.




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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #22358857 - 10/10/15 11:55 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

@ akira - religion's biggest flax is exclusivity, and that is precisely how power exploits religion. but we're growing out of that, albeit painfully and slowly. indeed, there are parts of the world where believing the wrong thing could cost you your life, but there are also parts of the world where religious pluralism is the standard, including here. i think it's easy to take for granted that the past hundred years has resulted in much less division between catholics and protestant christians in the u.s. just in our parents' time, having a catholic president was nearly unthinkable when it happened.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: millzy]
    #22358887 - 10/10/15 12:02 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

@ ballsalsa - yeah, the history of roman and barbarian relations is a hot mess. the sack of rome in 410 was the result of the romans fucking over the visigoths, who had settled in thrace. the visigoths were dependent on roman grain, and the supply chain was completely corrupt, so after starving they proceeded to fuck shit up. just goes to show, don't ever underestimate the little guy.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: millzy]
    #22358906 - 10/10/15 12:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

just goes to show, don't ever underestimate the little guy.






So true.  Its extra funny when Justinian sent Belsarius back to italy to take rome away from those visigoths.  Same lesson to be learned.


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OfflineSunnyD
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22358938 - 10/10/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Did you see the words for example?

i also said i hate most  forms of big organized religion
i hate religions with huge  bigoted teachings


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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22359004 - 10/10/15 12:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Ya think everybody in the world would agree to give up all weopons at once? Guns, bombs, ect... and any group or country found violating this would be invaded by a massive number of like minded people to come in and ruin their way of life, or some kind idealist response.

Thats my idea. Not saying it perfect.


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OfflineSunnyD
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: SunnyD]
    #22359179 - 10/10/15 01:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Also too akira, isee what you mean about big religions like Christianity, islam etc to be pretty damn bigoted


But not all religion is bad, ones with the goal of peace of mind, togetherness etc imo are very good
I Couldn't be happier with my spiritual beliefs ( Universe )


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: SunnyD]
    #22359228 - 10/10/15 01:38 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

it seems to me that it's probably more productive to think about religion in terms of there being christianities, islams, etc. rather than continents of unchanging, uniform belief systems. that just isn't reality. certain sects of religions glorify vice (e.g. greed, bigotry, mysogyny, violence, intolerance to other belief systems and people etc.) but not all of them do. it's just not a simple conversation because what people believe and do based on those beliefs is far from it, and mischaracterizing religious devotees puts us further from seriously examining the topic.


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: millzy] * 1
    #22361383 - 10/11/15 12:08 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I feel like people always get caught up in blaming religion because its the first thing anyone does right now. Rarely does any one ever fully consider the historical events that lead up to this massive conflict, or really what was before any of it started happening. The Arab world used to be a very progressive place up until continued historical warfare with other nations slowly polarized the community. Its like poking a sore until it starts festering. The attack on Afghanistan was totally unwarranted. There was never anything concretely tieing the country to 9/11 yet, nevermind invading and occupying the local population. Doing no knock raids, humiliating and killing innocent civilians. All this over decades, along with continual airtstrikes in countries the USA is not even officially at war with currently. What would your country do in that situation. Faced with this invading leviathan. Would the populace simply roll over and take it, meekly? A lot of you would pick up arms and fight. Few of you even see the broader picture between the two cultures.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #22361686 - 10/11/15 03:41 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

take note though, i wasn't "blaming" religion, but just seeing a similarity in religion and in notions of "stay away from other there, over there is dangerous" and what's dangerous gets in the way sometimes, to people in want of erm progress.

but yeah, i don't know TOO much history, i plan on brushing up, because it interests me. so i appreciate it guys, all the info i mean.


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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22361966 - 10/11/15 07:29 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

At the end of the day science proves that religion makes people both happier and healthier. So just be religious and don't start any wars :shrug:


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OfflineEDM
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: Moonshoe]
    #22362080 - 10/11/15 08:14 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

How insane is it to have an imaginary friend?  It makes sense and is completely rational because there are at least 20 other people supporting you. Is the belief in Santa Clause reasonable? Do you believe in that?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: EDM]
    #22362128 - 10/11/15 08:29 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

The essence of my religious belief is the belief that practicing spiritual disciplines and participating in religious practices and observances has numerous and profound benefits .

Prayer, yoga, meditation, chanting mantras, taking communion, baptism, studying scriptures and sacred writings, attending church, temple, Dharma centre, practicing rituals and ceremonies, maintaining an altar and offering Incence or flower, having a guru or spiritual teacher, shamanic practices, sacred drumming or dancing, observing special holy days and honouring natural cycles...

All this is of profound benefit and importance, and requires no particular belief or dogma other then the belief that these practices will bring benefit, which is validated by science and will be confirmed by experience.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: War & Religion are inexorably linked in history and in their conception. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22362251 - 10/11/15 09:08 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

dionysiandame said:
...
Similarly, a Hindu in southern India and one in Northern India might not have a bond at all aside from seeing each other during Diwali and even then, their familial and cultural ties are a million times stronger than their religious one.
...



Quote:

akira_akuma said:
...
b: on Hindus: sure, but their bond may not be stronger, but it still exists there, in their religion. do you not think north and south would unite to fight a common enemy? would they not be tied by religion?
...




They may be willing to unite against a common enemy, if they perceive there to be one; however, the bond may not necessarily be religious unless the invading force had declared a religious war.

One of the difficulties with "Hinduism" is that it is a fairly broad term for a variety of faiths that may be, at best, only loosely connected.

There are branches of Vaisnava Hinduism that consider Jains to be a more closely shared community than Shaiva Hindus, for example.
In such an instance, it comes down to a sort of class discrimination, where the Shaiva worshipers are looked down upon for not being as affluent as the other two groups.

If I can dig the study back out, I will try and get you the information on the particulars of the area and sub-sects -- it was in one of my course packs somewhere...


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