|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
the Implicate Order
#22354654 - 10/09/15 01:31 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
The implicate, conscious ground collapses into mass-energy at every point of spacetime, over and over, billions of times a second, giving rise to the explicate structures of Nature which, as a result of this fact, are only relatively invariant but are at a finer level undergoing a rapid, constant rate of change. This is mirrored in the interface between human consciousness and the human mind, in which the quantum circuit informs neuroelectricity in every instant, superposing as a set of different possible choices or mindsets, which collapse during a conscious event of perception into a given awareness or state of mind. So we can see there is a real oneness between the consciousness of Nature itself, and also the primate mind. In truth, it is only one process.
Hopefully that makes some sense to somebody.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
bastian
Sebastian

Registered: 08/06/15
Posts: 17
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
I think you're infusing a bit of speculative metaphysics into theoretical -field theory- physics. And I think that concepts like the consciousness of nature are big interpretive extrapolations.
Edited by bastian (10/09/15 02:51 PM)
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
Re: the Implicate Order [Re: bastian]
#22354893 - 10/09/15 02:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Oh, you're right, that's exactly what I'm doing -- it's totally speculative. I think it's fun, though.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
bastian
Sebastian

Registered: 08/06/15
Posts: 17
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
Re: the Implicate Order [Re: bastian]
#22354985 - 10/09/15 03:19 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, I understand, it's a lot of fun to think about. I'm just trying to see if I can get at what you're saying. Are you saying that our level of experience, the world of physical individuation, is seemingly consistent but on a subatomic level everything is fluid and rapidly fluctuating, and that consciousness as we know it is experienced at a similar level of abstraction and takes on consistent forms, but still, the subatomic level is the condition of the possibility of these forms. And so human consciousness is a kind of mediated and individuated form of a broader consciousness (of nature as a whole)?
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
Re: the Implicate Order [Re: bastian]
#22355080 - 10/09/15 03:49 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, that's the major part of it.
Quote:
And so human consciousness is a kind of mediated and individuated form of a broader consciousness (of nature as a whole)?
That's very well said, and is the overarching, salient point. Actually everything you said agrees with and is contained in the OP, so I commend your comprehension very much. These views come from several places, but I think if you're interested in it, a great place to get more perspective would be to look into David Bohm's theory of the Implicate and Explicate orders. What I said is a slightly modified version of the essence of his model, which I think has a lot of pluses.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
Universaleyeni
Friend



Registered: 04/18/13
Posts: 528
Loc: Fl
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
|
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Oh, you're right, that's exactly what I'm doing -- it's totally speculative. I think it's fun, though.
Its very fun!
The beauty of it is seeing everything in everything and thus being able to draw parallels between points of what we "know" and what we believe.
Sciences can be very useful when applied in this way. If we look in the right lens, everything in the universe corroborates itself.
Very cool DQ
|
BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
|
|
Hmm.. the theory about order that I like most..is layers and layers from most single or plank length..up to consciousness of various animals..Us as Humans maybe even the Gods of Polytheism..and then of course God, him or herself..
So that we get a pyramid..and the statement As Above, So Below..which is that the Most excluded but at the same time included middle..which is the Soul Consciousness in which someone knows that they are both Creator..and being in perfect peace...This soul idea IS in the middle..and than from the things as orders that are higher than this are mostly explicit.. like God for example..
But at the same time we get the lowest order possible..which some may call the fall of man..and yet is such a perfect landscape..David Bohm researched Plasma..but the native Indians thought that every thing in nature is essentially alive..or that their is a spirit in everything from Rocks..to the sky and all of Creation essentially is a Single Unit..divided almost infinitely but always complete..so that we understand the Above is need to exist..just as is the below..so that the excluded and included middle..can see things from all perspectives..
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
|
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Oh, you're right, that's exactly what I'm doing -- it's totally speculative. I think it's fun, though.
We are not here to have fun, mister!
--------------------
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
|
yeah this isnt the philosophy, sociology, psychology and fun forum
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
|
bastian
Sebastian

Registered: 08/06/15
Posts: 17
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
Re: the Implicate Order [Re: quinn]
#22357373 - 10/10/15 01:15 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Whenever I entertain this idea, there’s still a dead end that I always come to. I just don’t know what to take away from it. I think people sometimes use this idea to try to find an escape from finitude, but I think that even if we are all metaphysically interconnected in some way- if we are all abstracted physical manifestations of some eternal undifferentiated source, it’s at a level that we don’t really have access to and has no practical bearing on one’s life. Maybe a person can have a fleeting drug experience that approximates this “truth,” but one's daily mode of being is at the level of subjective individuation and once the physical body dies and one's particular consciousness burns out, there’s no “I” to be found anymore, so what’s the difference if an individual's consciousness is derived from or part of some greater mind-at-large? Maybe I’m just not enlightened and I’m too attached to my ego, but what’s the practical upshot? Or is it just a “whoa, that's crazy” kind of thing? I'm wondering because it seems to come up a lot but I don't know what kinds of conclusions people draw from this line of thinking.
Edited by bastian (10/10/15 02:12 AM)
|
bastian
Sebastian

Registered: 08/06/15
Posts: 17
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
Re: the Implicate Order [Re: bastian]
#22357395 - 10/10/15 01:26 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
...and I'm really not trying to be a Scrooge. I like the idea as much as anybody. It's just that some people (maybe not you) try to make this claim that we're all one, we're all part of this nature-essence thing, so it's all good. And they'll bring in some unified field theory idea, and I just don't know what to do with it.
Edited by bastian (10/10/15 01:32 AM)
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
Re: the Implicate Order [Re: bastian]
#22358346 - 10/10/15 10:05 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bastian said: Whenever I entertain this idea, there’s still a dead end that I always come to. I just don’t know what to take away from it. I think people sometimes use this idea to try to find an escape from finitude, but I think that even if we are all metaphysically interconnected in some way- if we are all abstracted physical manifestations of some eternal undifferentiated source, it’s at a level that we don’t really have access to and has no practical bearing on one’s life.
I respectfully disagree. I think that level is not only relevant for philosophy (and science), but that it has a distinct role, possibly not all the time in day-to-day life, but certainly in a fundamental way for life and one's essence in general.
Quote:
Maybe a person can have a fleeting drug experience that approximates this “truth,” but one's daily mode of being is at the level of subjective individuation and once the physical body dies and one's particular consciousness burns out, there’s no “I” to be found anymore, so what’s the difference if an individual's consciousness is derived from or part of some greater mind-at-large?
You seem to be saying that the ego is fundamental, which I, for one, highly doubt. If you assume the ego is not fundamental, then there is no conflict. This is more a matter of identity and the individual self. But I think the self can have some ultimate meaning, even if it is not truly essential.
Quote:
Maybe I’m just not enlightened and I’m too attached to my ego, but what’s the practical upshot? Or is it just a “whoa, that's crazy” kind of thing? I'm wondering because it seems to come up a lot but I don't know what kinds of conclusions people draw from this line of thinking.
Well the practical upshot is the infinite, ultimately. I mean it's everything. The essence of everything. I can't begin to describe how fundamental it is, for us.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
bastian
Sebastian

Registered: 08/06/15
Posts: 17
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
I'm kind of exaggerating for the purpose of discussion. I know that if it were provable, which I don't think it is, it would be as profound as knowing that we all have something like a spirit, even if that's not the right word for it. And I understand that most likely, the practical upshot would be a feeling of deeper connection with other beings and the universe as a whole, and probably some sense of cosmic order.
For me though, it wouldn't make that much of a difference, because I still have to experience the world as a finite subject among finite subjects. And the notion of a universal essence isn't necessarily good news to me, it could be as scary as the Shopenhaurian Will. Blind striving for all of eternity.
Most of all, my reason for writing this is just that I like playing the other side of the conversation.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
Re: the Implicate Order [Re: bastian]
#22358911 - 10/10/15 12:09 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
That's very fair, and I appreciate the discussion. Of course my ideas are speculative, but due to certain clues I've picked up here and there I think they have at least some merit. I always like chatting about them.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
|
|
omg this is so sain..everything you say or do has subconscious codes...and the way you look at something is an interpretation..and the individual is at a complacent time, of which he looks for things to have significance..which happens when people start doing psychedelics..when you find meaning and its not garbled you can recreate your mind..and thought structures to fit into the bigger picture of the universe..and all the people in it reflect a bit of you inside and out of them..as do I perchance reflect a little of you..in a bigger picture and just a simple meaning of one symbol..like the double S..which stands for secret service..and singularity
|
bastian
Sebastian

Registered: 08/06/15
Posts: 17
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
|
|
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: That's very fair, and I appreciate the discussion. Of course my ideas are speculative, but due to certain clues I've picked up here and there I think they have at least some merit. I always like chatting about them. 
Yeah, I definitely know the feeling. I remain agnostic about that kind of thing, but I still comport myself to the world as if there were a kind of holy essence in everything, whether or not I believe in it outright.
|
|