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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness
    #22351043 - 10/08/15 05:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

"What I mean by this is that proponents of these ideals always seem to have a swift answer to the most complex problems the world faces.

Poverty? Government stooges will fix it.
Corrupt government? Government stooges will fix it.
Income inequality? Government stooges will fix it.
Geopolitics? Government stooges will fix it.
Racism? Government stooges will fix it.

Granted, these views don't represent all the proponents of said philosophies, but I'm speaking on what I see most often. And here's the root of the problem: There is no single vial of snake oil that will cure all of society's ills, and your typical Collectivist believes just the opposite.

And they do so because it's EASY to think that way."







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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22351059 - 10/08/15 05:37 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

100% agree, bigger govt is ALWAYS the answer... So simplistic, just if we put the right people in charge, first Obama, then BS... It's always the next greatest hope...

Did ya hear Rahm Emanuel has been indicted on corruption charges? Obama's right hand man, go figure... Though it gives me hope Obama is next...


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22351080 - 10/08/15 05:42 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Presidents never get prosecuted. They give themselves a pardon before leaving office anyway.

The vast majority in here are big govt enthusiasts. Govt is sucking up about 1/4 of the economy and is on track to take 1/2 if it keeps growing. They spy on us constantly, enforce stupid laws that people don't want but ignore the laws themselves. See hitlery Clinton.

Those socialist countries in Europe they like to brag on are going down the drain, the ones that don't have a fortune in oil money coming in every year that is. Even Germany is teetering and the fools are letting in more refugees. Disaster looms.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #22351180 - 10/08/15 06:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Presidents never get prosecuted. They give themselves a pardon before leaving office anyway.

The vast majority in here are big govt enthusiasts. Govt is sucking up about 1/4 of the economy and is on track to take 1/2 if it keeps growing. They spy on us constantly, enforce stupid laws that people don't want but ignore the laws themselves. See hitlery Clinton.

Those socialist countries in Europe they like to brag on are going down the drain, the ones that don't have a fortune in oil money coming in every year that is. Even Germany is teetering and the fools are letting in more refugees. Disaster looms.




Yep, and so is America, they really believe somehow the debt will just be magically wiped, fact is, that isn't going to happen, and if it does, it will give our biggest debt holders COMPLETE control over us, hard to believe they're willing to give up US sovereignty to a bank and China, but, there it is...

Socialism has failed everywhere it's tried, that's a fact


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22351313 - 10/08/15 06:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>Socialism has failed everywhere it's tried, that's a fact

True, except where it hasn't had enough time to fail yet. Like Norway and its oilfields.

The debt will be magically wiped out by massive inflation, not by giving the country to china. Most of the qe that has gone on has been channeled into the stock market which is why its still flying high but the market's days are numbered too. What happens when they print up a few trillion every year to pay off the debt? Everybody's cash loses value because there is more money chasing the same amount of goods.

It will hurt the economy, there will be a worldwide depression that they will call a recession just like they call today's anemic economy a "recovery". Goods and services will go up in value, those commodities that no one wants right now, soon they will be worth a lot. Oil is down but will not stay down. Invest in oil fields that no one wants. Gold and silver will shoot up when people see paper money loses value every year.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22351383 - 10/08/15 06:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

We're going the way of Greece and these socialist morons are making sure we get there.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2014/09/29/the-seven-most-indebted-nations/


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22351444 - 10/08/15 06:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)



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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22353592 - 10/09/15 08:10 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"What I mean by this is that proponents of these ideals always seem to have a swift answer to the most complex problems the world faces.

Poverty? Government stooges will fix it.
Corrupt government? Government stooges will fix it.
Income inequality? Government stooges will fix it.
Geopolitics? Government stooges will fix it.
Racism? Government stooges will fix it.

Granted, these views don't represent all the proponents of said philosophies, but I'm speaking on what I see most often. And here's the root of the problem: There is no single vial of snake oil that will cure all of society's ills, and your typical Collectivist believes just the opposite.

And they do so because it's EASY to think that way."




I actually agree.  There's a lot of socialists that think this way.  There's also the other side of the spectrum where a lot of capitalists believe that if government would quit fucking things up everything would be better.  This is the same kind of magical 'snake oil' thinking.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22353707 - 10/09/15 09:00 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Glad we can agree on something.

For Capitalists: Government is just one problem, but there are many more (IE. competition).

Yes if "the government would quit fucking things up" things WOULD be better. How can this be refuted?


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22353805 - 10/09/15 09:26 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Competition only works to exert market pressure when it exists.  Not every product will have competition as it's not always profitable to compete with a monopoly, in fact, it's often not profitable.

We can look at cable providers for an example of this.  There's very little government interference but it's just too expensive to lay new cable lines to compete in the market.

Another prime example is the hedge fund manager that jacked the price of a med up 5000% after buying the factory that produces it.  This is the generic form of the drug, there's just no competition in the market.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/generic-drug-price-increases-5000-percent-overnight/

Finally, it's worth saying, that free market capitalism implies free trade.  Something I see a lot of conservatives disagree with (just look at Mexico and Trump's support).  Supporting free markets while disparaging free trade is the definition of double think.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22353867 - 10/09/15 09:39 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Competition only works to exert market pressure when it exists.  Not every product will have competition as it's not always profitable to compete with a monopoly, in fact, it's often not profitable.

We can look at cable providers for an example of this.  There's very little government interference but it's just too expensive to lay new cable lines to compete in the market.

Another prime example is the hedge fund manager that jacked the price of a med up 5000% after buying the factory that produces it.  This is the generic form of the drug, there's just no competition in the market.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/generic-drug-price-increases-5000-percent-overnight/

Finally, it's worth saying, that free market capitalism implies free trade.  Something I see a lot of conservatives disagree with (just look at Mexico and Trump's support).  Supporting free markets while disparaging free trade is the definition of double think.




Yeah that's why I said that competition is an enemy to Capitalists. Basic economics.

Actually you can support a tax on incoming goods while still supporting free trade because Free trade talks about restrictions, not taxation.

"Free trade is a policy followed by some international markets in which countries' governments do not restrict imports from, or exports to, other countries. Free trade is exemplified by the European Economic Area and the North American Free Trade Agreement, which have established open markets."

Yes if "the government would quit fucking things up" things WOULD be better. How can this be refuted?


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22353891 - 10/09/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I don't give a shit about capitalists I care about rather or not the system is functional.  You seem to be arguing that monopolies are good (for capitalists) which I can agree is true to an extent.  It's good if you're the one monopolizing the market.  It's obviously bad for everyone else including the consumer.

Outside of government how do we break up monopolies?  Or are you suggesting that we don't?

Free trade also implies freedom of movement for the workers.  Something the EU also has.  You don't see the parallels with Mexico and how capitalists in this country are arguing for free markets but not for free trade?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22353927 - 10/09/15 09:53 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I don't give a shit about capitalists I care about rather or not the system is functional.  You seem to be arguing that monopolies are good (for capitalists) which I can agree is true to an extent.  It's good if you're the one monopolizing the market.  It's obviously bad for everyone else including the consumer.

Outside of government how do we break up monopolies?  Or are you suggesting that we don't?

Free trade also implies freedom of movement for the workers.  Something the EU also has.  You don't see the parallels with Mexico and how capitalists in this country are arguing for free markets but not for free trade?




I think the point of this thread was to find out those few things that socialists REFUSE to let the government take over. We already know that gov. CAN (most of the time won't) do some things good like break up monopolies. At what cost? A different conversation.

Europe has immigration laws while using Free trade, or did I miss something?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integration_law_for_immigrants_to_the_Netherlands


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22353983 - 10/09/15 10:05 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I thought the point of the thread was to troll socialists so I figured I'd really piss you off by agreeing with you.

Personally I don't believe government is the solution.  I think we can use it as a tool for social change but ultimately I believe we need a strong labor movement in this country to really get anything worthwhile accomplished.

This is the false dichotomy I was trying to point out to you in my supposed ad-hominem attack that you rated me a zero for.  Socialism does not equal welfare.  It's about bottom up rather than top down economics.  There's several forms of Socialist thought that are in fact anarchist and even those that support free trade.

As far as Europe, they have free trade and open borders within the EU.  This is not free trade in a global capitalist sense of the word.  It's about as free as the free trade between U.S. member states.

And I should apologize, when I use Free Trade I'm referring to Free Markets.  Which would necessarily include open borders otherwise governments are interfering with labor.

Free Market

Quote:

an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.




Even Ayn Rand supported free migration and it doesn't get more far-right than that.

http://openborders.info/ayn-rand-immigration-obvious/


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354015 - 10/09/15 10:12 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I thought the point of the thread was to troll socialists so I figured I'd really piss you off by agreeing with you.

Personally I don't believe government is the solution.  I think we can use it as a tool for social change but ultimately I believe we need a strong labor movement in this country to really get anything worthwhile accomplished.

This is the false dichotomy I was trying to point out to you in my supposed ad-hominem attack that you rated me a zero for.  Socialism does not equal welfare.  It's about bottom up rather than top down economics.  There's several forms of Socialist thought that are in fact anarchist and even those that support free trade.

As far as Europe, they have free trade and open borders within the EU.  This is not free trade in a global capitalist sense of the word.  It's about as free as the free trade between U.S. member states.

And I should apologize, when I use Free Trade I'm referring to Free Markets.  Which would necessarily include open borders otherwise governments are interfering with labor.

Free Market

Quote:

an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.




Even Ayn Rand supported free migration and it doesn't get more far-right than that.

http://openborders.info/ayn-rand-immigration-obvious/




What social change that we need gov to provide that won't happen in the future naturally, without gov? We already have a strong labor movement-they're called Unions. Public unions are bankrupting our nation.

I did not bring up a dichotomy. I'm merely posting here to point out the problems with the gov tax and spend scheme. I'm not on this planet to pay for some Gov'/IRS Agent's boob job-Fuck them all.

Free Markets exists inside borders, always have and always will.


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Edited by burgerbrain (10/09/15 10:19 AM)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22354046 - 10/09/15 10:20 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

How about income inequality?  How do you suppose we fix that without government regulation or socialist methods (worker movements)?

Or is this just not an issue to you?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354054 - 10/09/15 10:22 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
How about income inequality?  How do you suppose we fix that without government regulation or socialist methods (worker movements)?

Or is this just not an issue to you?




Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Im bumping this thread because the OP is still extremely relevant to this sub. Ignore the derails and lets discuss the original premise. Heres the first post:

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What I mean by this is that proponents of these ideals always seem to have a swift answer to the most complex problems the world faces.

Poverty? Laziness.
Corrupt government? Do away with it altogether.
Income inequality? Laziness.
Geopolitics? Kill them all.
Racism? It doesn't exist.

Granted, these views don't respresent all the proponents of said philosophies, but I'm speaking on what I see most often. And here's the root of the problem: There is no single vial of snake oil that will cure all of society's ills, and your typical Reaganite believes just the opposite.

And they do so because it's EASY to think that way.

How do these people reconcile the negative consequences of capitalism? Write it off as cronyism. People like this don't struggle with reconciliation of different ideals, because in their mind, the answer is clear. And it's easier that way, sorta like the people who believe God is responsible for any and all unknowns.

This kind of thinking is pervasive, and I'm getting sick of seeing these multiple choice discussions take place on this forum because certain people are too insecure in their beliefs to admit that, just maybe, there are downsides to the beliefs they hold dear. there's no internal conflict, no struggle, and it's downright dishonest.









Too much bullshit in one thread. Bullshit overload.

I'll start slow for the libs:

Poverty? Laziness. Poverty in America? First world problems. Our poor have enough food, cable tv, etc.

Corrupt government? Do away with it altogether. Tea Party Libertarians voted in to end corruption and make gov smaller so the corruption doesn't do as much damage.

Income inequality? Laziness. When has income inequality never existed? Obviously the real conversation should be about "Standard of Living"

Geopolitics? Kill them all. Is that what Ron Paul the Libertarian said, kiddo?

Racism? It doesn't exist. Our nation elected Obowma, twice. That must be RACIST! More whites than blacks are killed by cops. Where's the racism? Oh I found it! Affirmative Action is RACISM.




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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354058 - 10/09/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Income inequality is a GOOD thing, it motivates people...


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354102 - 10/09/15 10:31 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>We can look at cable providers for an example of this.  There's very little government interference but it's just too expensive to lay new cable lines to compete in the market.

Ever heard of satellite? How about direct streaming over the net?

>Another prime example is the hedge fund manager that jacked the price of a med up 5000% after buying the factory that produces it.  This is the generic form of the drug, there's just no competition in the market.

Now competitors have a motive to compete, they can make a lot of money at that price and the price will come down.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22354110 - 10/09/15 10:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Income inequality is a GOOD thing, it motivates people...




That's bullshit.  There's countries with higher GDP than us that have less income inequality.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Income inequality? Laziness. When has income inequality never existed? Obviously the real conversation should be about "Standard of Living"




Okay then, standard of living.  Frankly I don't give a shit about money aside from standard of living.  Income Inequality brings down all of our standard of living.  Hungry people are more likely to commit crime out of desperation.  Less likely to see mental health care workers.  Less likely to go to any doctor really.  More likely to be suffering in general.  More likely to have a parent go to prison.  More likely to miss school because they go to work or didn't go see the doctor.  More likely to live in a neighborhood with an underfunded educational system (Adam Smith, by the way, advocated that corporations should pay for education through taxes).  More likely to get caught in the system because they can't afford a lawyer and more likely to view themselves and act as a criminal because of this.

All of this is all of our problem.  Even if you live in a nice neighborhood you still may get mugged or carjacked by someone trying to make ends meet when you leave your nice cushy condo.

Money is the basic value of rather or not we can function within our society.  It's a lot more than oh, you're not starving like people in Africa so your standard of living is fine.  Even our justice system assumes that people can afford to defend themselves in court.  The truth is far from that.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22354121 - 10/09/15 10:35 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>We can look at cable providers for an example of this.  There's very little government interference but it's just too expensive to lay new cable lines to compete in the market.

Ever heard of satellite? How about direct streaming over the net?




The speeds are shit and the prices high.  They don't compete with cable providers.  They provide service in the boonies where there's no other option.

*edit*  And I was referring to cable internet providers.  Cable TV is a luxury and I don't give a shit if someone monopolizes something I don't fucking need to function in modern society.

Quote:

>Another prime example is the hedge fund manager that jacked the price of a med up 5000% after buying the factory that produces it.  This is the generic form of the drug, there's just no competition in the market.

Now competitors have a motive to compete, they can make a lot of money at that price and the price will come down.




Compete and get into a price war over a medicine that has a very inflexible demand curve.  Good luck with that.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

Edited by paperbackwriter (10/09/15 10:37 AM)

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22354141 - 10/09/15 10:41 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

That's bullshit.  There's countries with higher GDP than us that have less income inequality.




So what does motivate people to get a better job or move up in a company?


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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22354147 - 10/09/15 10:42 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Income inequality is a GOOD thing, it motivates people...




It's actually not a good thing for the overall economy, case in the point is the US and its very slow rate of growth the past 10 years.

If the economic opportunities are present, then the inequality can be a very motivating factor (after WW2)!!  That's not the case today, the only things the massive inequality creates is frustration and anger.

The problem with today is the very rich haven't suffered at all in this economic downturn, even during the Great Depression the rich got burned big time, today it's only been the bottom 70%.

There's a reason why the inequality is so massive today and it has nothing to with motivation or talent, it's called financial games at the top.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354166 - 10/09/15 10:48 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>The speeds are shit and the prices high.  They don't compete with cable providers.  They provide service in the boonies where there's no other option.

Oh really? You should get out more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_Internet_access

Satellite Internet access is Internet access provided through communications satellites. Modern satellite Internet service is typically provided to users through geostationary satellites that can offer high data speeds,[2] with newer satellites using Ka band to achieve downstream data speeds up to 50 Mbps.[3]


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22354168 - 10/09/15 10:49 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

That's bullshit.  There's countries with higher GDP than us that have less income inequality.




So what does motivate people to get a better job or move up in a company?




Change.  Desire to learn something new.  Desire to have more responsibility.

And I'm not talking about zero income inequality.  I don't believe any country has that.  But the conversation was about income inequality in the U.S. and how to fix it without government intervention.

I think qman did a great job outlining the issue and I have nothing more to add.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22354180 - 10/09/15 10:55 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>The speeds are shit and the prices high.  They don't compete with cable providers.  They provide service in the boonies where there's no other option.

Oh really? You should get out more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_Internet_access

Satellite Internet access is Internet access provided through communications satellites. Modern satellite Internet service is typically provided to users through geostationary satellites that can offer high data speeds,[2] with newer satellites using Ka band to achieve downstream data speeds up to 50 Mbps.[3]




I can get double that here for $70 a month.

For satellite services 15 mbps starts at $130.  I can't find these 50mbps packages but I don't see how they can possibly be competitive with that big of a price gap.

It also looks like the latency issue hasn't been fixed (and probably won't be, takes time to send shit to space and back).  Good luck gaming or streaming with satellite.

I used to do tech support for a satellite internet provider, you're really barking up the wrong tree Stoney.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22354234 - 10/09/15 11:09 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

There is also cellular internet with reasonably priced data plans. Many states or municipalities have laws mandating cable and phone companies to share their poles at a reasonable cost. Latency to a geostationary satellite is not going to be an issue. A couple thousand mile round trip at the speed of light is not long.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22354254 - 10/09/15 11:14 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
There is also cellular internet with reasonably priced data plans. Many states or municipalities have laws mandating cable and phone companies to share their poles at a reasonable cost. Latency to a geostationary satellite is not going to be an issue. A couple thousand mile round trip at the speed of light is not long.




Latency is an issue, especially for gaming, and the latency I saw in an article posted on February of this year shows it's still much higher than cable.  This was a common complaint we got when I worked in the industry.

Also the topic of discussion is government intervention.  Bringing up states and municipalities forcing companies to share their property is kinda proving my point about monopolies (which burgerbrain refuses to discuss).


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22354520 - 10/09/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Well lets see, the speed of light being 186k mps and the distance being lets say 2k miles round trip we have 2/186 or about 11 milliseconds of lag. If the satellite was within 500 miles then you could cut that in half.

No one said states and counties had to give up their property, they simply have to allow access at reasonable rates because they are using the public domain and public property in the first place.

We need a tiny bit of socialism but not the whole tamale. We certainly do not need communism in govt.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22354561 - 10/09/15 12:54 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Well lets see, the speed of light being 186k mps and the distance being lets say 2k miles round trip we have 2/186 or about 11 milliseconds of lag. If the satellite was within 500 miles then you could cut that in half.

No one said states and counties had to give up their property, they simply have to allow access at reasonable rates because they are using the public domain and public property in the first place.

We need a tiny bit of socialism but not the whole tamale. We certainly do not need communism in govt.




You're forgetting rely time.  The time it takes for the satellite to route your packets and send it back to earth.  There's also all the earth based rely time.

800-2000ms ping was what the article I read mentioned which sounds a hell of a lot better than it was ten years ago when I was in the industry.  Two seconds is still an eternity of lag when playing games on the internet.

Point is, it's not competitive.  It's a great option for people that can't get cable internet but it doesn't compete, in either performance or price, with cable based ISPs.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22356477 - 10/09/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Well lets see, the speed of light being 186k mps and the distance being lets say 2k miles round trip we have 2/186 or about 11 milliseconds of lag. If the satellite was within 500 miles then you could cut that in half.

No one said states and counties had to give up their property, they simply have to allow access at reasonable rates because they are using the public domain and public property in the first place.

We need a tiny bit of socialism but not the whole tamale. We certainly do not need communism in govt.




You're forgetting rely time.  The time it takes for the satellite to route your packets and send it back to earth.  There's also all the earth based rely time.

800-2000ms ping was what the article I read mentioned which sounds a hell of a lot better than it was ten years ago when I was in the industry.  Two seconds is still an eternity of lag when playing games on the internet.

Point is, it's not competitive.  It's a great option for people that can't get cable internet but it doesn't compete, in either performance or price, with cable based ISPs.





Hardly anyone actually "needs" that extra speed. In the internet market there is plenty of competition, but wait until the FCC/Gov is done with it.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22357340 - 10/10/15 01:03 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Lets look at how unaffordable it is for new companies to lay fiber and compete in the market.  Now, would one of the main reasons for that be the maze of beaurocratic regulations and fees and studies and other forms of government interference in the market?  Yes.

or how about the high cost of homes in California?  Does it have something to do with the ~$45,000 per new home cost that california government regulations add to the price?

Another variant of this is 'the closing' at a home sale.  THis is basically a feeding frenzy for a plethora of individuals from various sectors of the economy and government who come to dip their beaks on the money from a home sale generated by government mandated requirements, fees, and licenses.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22357418 - 10/10/15 01:37 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Lets look at how unaffordable it is for new companies to lay fiber and compete in the market.  Now, would one of the main reasons for that be the maze of beaurocratic regulations and fees and studies and other forms of government interference in the market?  Yes.

or how about the high cost of homes in California?  Does it have something to do with the ~$45,000 per new home cost that california government regulations add to the price?

Another variant of this is 'the closing' at a home sale.  THis is basically a feeding frenzy for a plethora of individuals from various sectors of the economy and government who come to dip their beaks on the money from a home sale generated by government mandated requirements, fees, and licenses.




I couldn't have said it better.

Of course these socialist scum never mention the added cost of gov' meddling-they don't discuss those things (IE. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/12/hey-barney-frank-the-government-did-cause-the-housing-crisis/249903/). It's disgusting the way these collectivists think-they've never even heard of the inflation tax. Poor morons are becoming/are currently slaves and don't even know it.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22357836 - 10/10/15 07:04 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Lets look at how unaffordable it is for new companies to lay fiber and compete in the market.  Now, would one of the main reasons for that be the maze of beaurocratic regulations and fees and studies and other forms of government interference in the market?  Yes.




It's also a fact that your return on investment is higher when you corner a market.  Laying fibre optic lines costs money.  When you already have competition going in your incentive is less.

Maybe bureaucracy is one reason.  But it's not the fucking main reason.

Nice try though.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22358226 - 10/10/15 09:38 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Lets look at how unaffordable it is for new companies to lay fiber and compete in the market.  Now, would one of the main reasons for that be the maze of beaurocratic regulations and fees and studies and other forms of government interference in the market?  Yes.




It's also a fact that your return on investment is higher when you corner a market.  Laying fibre optic lines costs money.  When you already have competition going in your incentive is less.

Maybe bureaucracy is one reason.  But it's not the fucking main reason.

Nice try though.





I guess it would be easy for you to come up with other reasons then, but you didn't. Unfortunate.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22358648 - 10/10/15 11:10 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I did give other reasons.  The incentive for entering a market with no competition is higher than one with established competition.  If the start up costs is high the incentive has to be worth it or it's a bad investment.

The start up cost can be related to government interference but in this case it's hardly the main cost.  Laying fiber optics cable is.

Here's an explanation.

https://www.quora.com/Does-Comcasts-near-monopoly-stem-ultimately-from-government-regulations-and-or-subsidies

And some examples of the cost.

http://blog.performantnetworks.com/2012/11/how-much-does-rural-fiber-really-cost.html

http://www.thewire.com/technology/2013/04/google-fiber-next-city/64048/

In other words my reason hasn't changed since I first brought this up.  As I eluded to earlier I've worked in the ISP sector and have had to explain this to customers.

Starfire and you want to blame everything on the government.  Talk about intellectual laziness.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22359689 - 10/10/15 03:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Paper, I thought you were in favor of socialism? Then you should want the govt to subsidize fiber optic cable.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22359756 - 10/10/15 03:50 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"What I mean by this is that proponents of these ideals always seem to have a swift answer to the most complex problems the world faces.

Poverty? Government stooges will fix it.
Corrupt government? Government stooges will fix it.
Income inequality? Government stooges will fix it.
Geopolitics? Government stooges will fix it.
Racism? Government stooges will fix it.

Granted, these views don't represent all the proponents of said philosophies, but I'm speaking on what I see most often. And here's the root of the problem: There is no single vial of snake oil that will cure all of society's ills, and your typical Collectivist believes just the opposite.

And they do so because it's EASY to think that way."











Really? :facepalm3:

You are a ridiculous fucking clown, dude.


--------------------
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22359762 - 10/10/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Income inequality is a GOOD thing, it motivates people...




It's actually not a good thing for the overall economy, case in the point is the US and its very slow rate of growth the past 10 years.

If the economic opportunities are present, then the inequality can be a very motivating factor (after WW2)!!  That's not the case today, the only things the massive inequality creates is frustration and anger.

The problem with today is the very rich haven't suffered at all in this economic downturn, even during the Great Depression the rich got burned big time, today it's only been the bottom 70%.

There's a reason why the inequality is so massive today and it has nothing to with motivation or talent, it's called financial games at the top.




:whathesaid:

Why can't the other conservatives around here be even 1/10 as smart as qman?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22359937 - 10/10/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"What I mean by this is that proponents of these ideals always seem to have a swift answer to the most complex problems the world faces.

Poverty? Government stooges will fix it.
Corrupt government? Government stooges will fix it.
Income inequality? Government stooges will fix it.
Geopolitics? Government stooges will fix it.
Racism? Government stooges will fix it.

Granted, these views don't represent all the proponents of said philosophies, but I'm speaking on what I see most often. And here's the root of the problem: There is no single vial of snake oil that will cure all of society's ills, and your typical Collectivist believes just the opposite.

And they do so because it's EASY to think that way."











Really? :facepalm3:

You are a ridiculous fucking clown, dude.





Take your ad-hominem elsewhere


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22359957 - 10/10/15 05:04 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"What I mean by this is that proponents of these ideals always seem to have a swift answer to the most complex problems the world faces.

Poverty? Government stooges will fix it.
Corrupt government? Government stooges will fix it.
Income inequality? Government stooges will fix it.
Geopolitics? Government stooges will fix it.
Racism? Government stooges will fix it.

Granted, these views don't represent all the proponents of said philosophies, but I'm speaking on what I see most often. And here's the root of the problem: There is no single vial of snake oil that will cure all of society's ills, and your typical Collectivist believes just the opposite.

And they do so because it's EASY to think that way."











Really? :facepalm3:

You are a ridiculous fucking clown, dude.





Take your ad-hominem elsewhere




That wasn't an ad-hominem. It was just an observation.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22359959 - 10/10/15 05:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"What I mean by this is that proponents of these ideals always seem to have a swift answer to the most complex problems the world faces.

Poverty? Government stooges will fix it.
Corrupt government? Government stooges will fix it.
Income inequality? Government stooges will fix it.
Geopolitics? Government stooges will fix it.
Racism? Government stooges will fix it.

Granted, these views don't represent all the proponents of said philosophies, but I'm speaking on what I see most often. And here's the root of the problem: There is no single vial of snake oil that will cure all of society's ills, and your typical Collectivist believes just the opposite.

And they do so because it's EASY to think that way."











Really? :facepalm3:

You are a ridiculous fucking clown, dude.





Take your ad-hominem elsewhere




That wasn't an ad-hominem. It was just an observation.





Cut the crap, or I'll report your ass.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22359978 - 10/10/15 05:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'm really sitting here debating w/ myself if I'm the fucking idiot for reading this shit or if other's really can be this thick and dim at the same time?

this forum is a bit like taking retards to a zoo


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: airclay]
    #22359983 - 10/10/15 05:17 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
I'm really sitting here debating w/ myself if I'm the fucking idiot for reading this shit or if other's really can be this thick and dim at the same time?

this forum is a bit like taking retards to a zoo




Just wait til the election season is over. We usually have pretty good discussion around here.


--------------------
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FARTS
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22371434 - 10/12/15 11:56 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

airclay said:
I'm really sitting here debating w/ myself if I'm the fucking idiot for reading this shit or if other's really can be this thick and dim at the same time?

this forum is a bit like taking retards to a zoo




Just wait til the election season is over. We usually have pretty good discussion around here.





So I guess you leave after election season?


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22371973 - 10/13/15 07:10 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

airclay said:
I'm really sitting here debating w/ myself if I'm the fucking idiot for reading this shit or if other's really can be this thick and dim at the same time?

this forum is a bit like taking retards to a zoo




Just wait til the election season is over. We usually have pretty good discussion around here.





So I guess you leave after election season?




great joke, dad

did you come up w that one on your own?


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: airclay]
    #22372445 - 10/13/15 09:53 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

airclay said:
I'm really sitting here debating w/ myself if I'm the fucking idiot for reading this shit or if other's really can be this thick and dim at the same time?

this forum is a bit like taking retards to a zoo




Just wait til the election season is over. We usually have pretty good discussion around here.





So I guess you leave after election season?




great joke, dad

did you come up w that one on your own?





Yeah, but I'm not your dad.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22372450 - 10/13/15 09:54 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Can't really blame him for trying to find his daddy, can you?


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com




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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22372456 - 10/13/15 09:56 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Can't really blame him for trying to find his daddy, can you?




:lolsy:


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22372859 - 10/13/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Guessing y'all aren't familiar w the term "dad jokes"

Fuck yall are almost as culturally ignorant as politically

And your jokes are awful real bad


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: airclay]
    #22374882 - 10/13/15 06:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
Guessing y'all aren't familiar w the term "dad jokes"

Fuck yall are almost as culturally ignorant as politically

And your jokes are awful real bad




Try to stay on topic next time


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22374933 - 10/13/15 06:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

airclay said:
Guessing y'all aren't familiar w the term "dad jokes"

Fuck yall are almost as culturally ignorant as politically

And your jokes are awful real bad




Try to stay on topic next time




Lol! You're one to talk!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
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Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22374946 - 10/13/15 06:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

When have I been off topic? You're confusing me with your friends


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: airclay]
    #22375055 - 10/13/15 06:53 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
Guessing y'all aren't familiar w the term "dad jokes"

Fuck yall are almost as culturally ignorant as politically

And your jokes are awful real bad






--------------------

Edited by starfire_xes (10/13/15 06:55 PM)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22377394 - 10/14/15 08:23 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Guess the trollwoof couldn't answer the question.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22377474 - 10/14/15 08:50 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Guess the trollwoof couldn't answer the question.




:lmafo:

You are one entertaining motherfucker, BB!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22377523 - 10/14/15 09:07 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Guess the trollwoof couldn't answer the question.




:lmafo:

You are one entertaining motherfucker, BB!





haha.  Trollwolf is the perfect name.  :highfive:


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22377535 - 10/14/15 09:14 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:


haha.  Trollwolf is the perfect name.  :highfive:




:lolsy:


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22377563 - 10/14/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Both sides seem to have their preferred silver bullets ...

Liberals = bigger government, another spending program, more "investment"

Conservatives = more tax cuts, more de-regulations, more defense spending

These things never change, regardless of the political cycle.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22377636 - 10/14/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Both sides seem to have their preferred silver bullets ...

Liberals = bigger government, another spending program, more "investment"

Conservatives = more tax cuts, more de-regulations, more defense spending

These things never change, regardless of the political cycle.




And they agree (exception of Trump) not to debate or discuss the real economic issues- globalization, excess pool of both unskilled and skilled/educated workers, illegal immigration, monetary policy, ect.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22377652 - 10/14/15 09:49 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

And they agree (exception of Trump) not to debate or discuss the real economic issues- globalization, excess pool of both unskilled and skilled/educated workers, illegal immigration, monetary policy, ect.




Globalization + technology replacing human labor is the big issue of the 21st century in terms of how to manage a global economy. 

Very few politicians have the bandwidth to speak on those topics fluently.  I think Trump fakes it, to be honest. 

Predatory Capitalism is changing the global economy faster than any economic system that we've ever seen.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22377697 - 10/14/15 10:02 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:

And they agree (exception of Trump) not to debate or discuss the real economic issues- globalization, excess pool of both unskilled and skilled/educated workers, illegal immigration, monetary policy, ect.




Globalization + technology replacing human labor is the big issue of the 21st century in terms of how to manage a global economy. 

Very few politicians have the bandwidth to speak on those topics fluently.  I think Trump fakes it, to be honest. 

Predatory Capitalism is changing the global economy faster than any economic system that we've ever seen.




Look at Wal-Mart today, they are talking about no sales growth (declining profits) for the next 3-4 years, and yes they are blaming everything but the obvious reality, the lower and middle class is dying a slow death in the US.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-14/wal-mart-tumbles-after-predicting-drop-in-fiscal-2017-earnings

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22377720 - 10/14/15 10:07 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

Look at Wal-Mart today, they are talking about no sales growth (declining profits) for the next 3-4 years, and yes they are blaming everything but the obvious reality, the lower and middle class is dying a slow death in the US.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-14/wal-mart-tumbles-after-predicting-drop-in-fiscal-2017-earnings




Wal Mart is suffering more and more from better competition.  Costco alone has taken a huge bite out of Wal Mart's revenues because they do a lot of things much better than Wal Mart.  Amazon even more so.  Wal Mart also seems to symbolize the entire globalization problem rolled up into one company ...


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22377761 - 10/14/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:

Look at Wal-Mart today, they are talking about no sales growth (declining profits) for the next 3-4 years, and yes they are blaming everything but the obvious reality, the lower and middle class is dying a slow death in the US.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-14/wal-mart-tumbles-after-predicting-drop-in-fiscal-2017-earnings




Wal Mart is suffering more and more from better competition.  Costco alone has taken a huge bite out of Wal Mart's revenues because they do a lot of things much better than Wal Mart.  Amazon even more so.  Wal Mart also seems to symbolize the entire globalization problem rolled up into one company ...




The competition has always been there, it's a very sad state of economic affairs when Wal-Mart (which is the barometer of the lower and middle class) has flat sales for years.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22377800 - 10/14/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

The competition has always been there, it's a very sad state of economic affairs when Wal-Mart (which is the barometer of the lower and middle class) has flat sales for years.




I think you're under estimating the growth of Amazon and Costco and others ... the sales are still there, they're just going to other competitors. 

Wal Mart never really improved the customer experience and one could easily argue it got worse every year. 

Having said that, earning/spending power in the lower and middle class has got to go up or this country is headed for some very serious problems soon.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22377875 - 10/14/15 10:38 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:

The competition has always been there, it's a very sad state of economic affairs when Wal-Mart (which is the barometer of the lower and middle class) has flat sales for years.




I think you're under estimating the growth of Amazon and Costco and others ... the sales are still there, they're just going to other competitors. 

Wal Mart never really improved the customer experience and one could easily argue it got worse every year. 

Having said that, earning/spending power in the lower and middle class has got to go up or this country is headed for some very serious problems soon.




They opened a super Wal-Mart in my area 2 years ago, I have admit it's a nice store. Many of the customers that shop at Wal-Mart aren't very sophisticated, they don't shop online and they don't pay for memberships.

Even with gasoline at $2 per gallon and a growing population, the company can't get going.  What happens if the US enters a real economic recession in the next 1-3 years?  Not good.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22377905 - 10/14/15 10:44 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
What happens if the US enters a real economic recession in the next 1-3 years?  Not good.




When was a recession ever good? 

There are a lot of wild cards out there that create all kinds of potential and risk ... water problems, nano manufacturing, increasing trade protectionist sentiment growing, emerging markets currency problems, genome engineering, ISIS ...

It's hard to see the future right now.  One thing for sure, though, nano-manufacturing is going to change things more than the computer + cell phone + internet did and it will happen fast.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22378249 - 10/14/15 12:03 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:

The competition has always been there, it's a very sad state of economic affairs when Wal-Mart (which is the barometer of the lower and middle class) has flat sales for years.




I think you're under estimating the growth of Amazon and Costco and others ... the sales are still there, they're just going to other competitors. 

Wal Mart never really improved the customer experience and one could easily argue it got worse every year. 

Having said that, earning/spending power in the lower and middle class has got to go up or this country is headed for some very serious problems soon.




They opened a super Wal-Mart in my area 2 years ago, I have admit it's a nice store. Many of the customers that shop at Wal-Mart aren't very sophisticated, they don't shop online and they don't pay for memberships.

Even with gasoline at $2 per gallon and a growing population, the company can't get going.  What happens if the US enters a real economic recession in the next 1-3 years?  Not good.




We have to get the money thats been amassing in the bank accounts of the wealthy back into circulation.

Also, as far as globalization and robots taking jobs, etc... we're going to need some form of Socialism when there aren't any jobs left due to automation. We will get to that point eventually. If we don't fix this situation before then, we may not have the chance when we're dominated in every way by our wealthy masters who do not need laborers or even white-collar workers anymore.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22380568 - 10/14/15 08:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:

The competition has always been there, it's a very sad state of economic affairs when Wal-Mart (which is the barometer of the lower and middle class) has flat sales for years.




I think you're under estimating the growth of Amazon and Costco and others ... the sales are still there, they're just going to other competitors. 

Wal Mart never really improved the customer experience and one could easily argue it got worse every year. 

Having said that, earning/spending power in the lower and middle class has got to go up or this country is headed for some very serious problems soon.




They opened a super Wal-Mart in my area 2 years ago, I have admit it's a nice store. Many of the customers that shop at Wal-Mart aren't very sophisticated, they don't shop online and they don't pay for memberships.

Even with gasoline at $2 per gallon and a growing population, the company can't get going.  What happens if the US enters a real economic recession in the next 1-3 years?  Not good.




We have to get the money thats been amassing in the bank accounts of the wealthy back into circulation.

Also, as far as globalization and robots taking jobs, etc... we're going to need some form of Socialism when there aren't any jobs left due to automation. We will get to that point eventually. If we don't fix this situation before then, we may not have the chance when we're dominated in every way by our wealthy masters who do not need laborers or even white-collar workers anymore.





Actually every dollar that lies dormant in someone's bank account only increases the VALUE of the dollar (even for the poor).

Remember how the gov' prints billions of dollars each year and why a Car used to cost $3,000 (in the 1970s) now costs $30,000. That's because of inflation caused by our government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_tax


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22380688 - 10/14/15 08:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

You have a point. If everyone rushed out and spent all the money they had, there would be massive shortages and price increases thereby devaluing the dollar. Otoh, the economy would finally get the jolt it needed and would take off since the chump in the white house certainly can't do the job.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22381323 - 10/14/15 10:58 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:

I think you're under estimating the growth of Amazon and Costco and others ... the sales are still there, they're just going to other competitors. 

Wal Mart never really improved the customer experience and one could easily argue it got worse every year. 

Having said that, earning/spending power in the lower and middle class has got to go up or this country is headed for some very serious problems soon.




They opened a super Wal-Mart in my area 2 years ago, I have admit it's a nice store. Many of the customers that shop at Wal-Mart aren't very sophisticated, they don't shop online and they don't pay for memberships.

Even with gasoline at $2 per gallon and a growing population, the company can't get going.  What happens if the US enters a real economic recession in the next 1-3 years?  Not good.




We have to get the money thats been amassing in the bank accounts of the wealthy back into circulation.

Also, as far as globalization and robots taking jobs, etc... we're going to need some form of Socialism when there aren't any jobs left due to automation. We will get to that point eventually. If we don't fix this situation before then, we may not have the chance when we're dominated in every way by our wealthy masters who do not need laborers or even white-collar workers anymore.





Actually every dollar that lies dormant in someone's bank account only increases the VALUE of the dollar (even for the poor).

Remember how the gov' prints billions of dollars each year and why a Car used to cost $3,000 (in the 1970s) now costs $30,000. That's because of inflation caused by our government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_tax




That's not true...
Wealthy people stashing money is not equivalent to deflation of the dollar. I don't know where you got such an idea, but it is incorrect. They're not burning the money, afterall.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22381915 - 10/15/15 04:26 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Actually every dollar that lies dormant in someone's bank account only increases the VALUE of the dollar (even for the poor).

Remember how the gov' prints billions of dollars each year and why a Car used to cost $3,000 (in the 1970s) now costs $30,000. That's because of inflation caused by our government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_tax




The money supply is dynamic not static.  The bulk of our money supply is created through lending from BANKS, through fractional reserve system.  Money sitting in a bank account does not increase the value of the dollar and, in fact, has quite the opposite impact because of fractional reserve lending. 

Perhaps if all the billionaires got together, took all their money out of real estate and securities and, instead just bought physical precious metals and jewels and vaulted it, we'd see a contraction of the money supply, but I doubt it. 

The main reason right now that our economy just can't get going is because banks are more interested in lending to the wealthy and to corporations for financial engineering schemes, stock buybacks and expansion overseas than they are to lending to everyday consumers.  Money is getting into the economy, for sure, it just doesn't get in the way it used to and that's the problem.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22384147 - 10/15/15 04:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Actually every dollar that lies dormant in someone's bank account only increases the VALUE of the dollar (even for the poor).

Remember how the gov' prints billions of dollars each year and why a Car used to cost $3,000 (in the 1970s) now costs $30,000. That's because of inflation caused by our government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_tax




The money supply is dynamic not static.  The bulk of our money supply is created through lending from BANKS, through fractional reserve system.  Money sitting in a bank account does not increase the value of the dollar and, in fact, has quite the opposite impact because of fractional reserve lending. 

Perhaps if all the billionaires got together, took all their money out of real estate and securities and, instead just bought physical precious metals and jewels and vaulted it, we'd see a contraction of the money supply, but I doubt it. 

The main reason right now that our economy just can't get going is because banks are more interested in lending to the wealthy and to corporations for financial engineering schemes, stock buybacks and expansion overseas than they are to lending to everyday consumers.  Money is getting into the economy, for sure, it just doesn't get in the way it used to and that's the problem.





Wrong again. The Fractional Reserve System are rules established by the FED (A Government Organization) - This is how OUR GOVERNMENT adds money to the pool- causing inflation.


www.federalreserve.gov/
Federal Reserve System
The "Fed" is the central bank of the United States and controls the money supply.
Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System
The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, commonly known as the Federal Reserve Board, is the main governing body of the Federal Reserve System. It is charged with overseeing the Federal Reserve Banks and with helping implement monetary policy of the United States.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22384342 - 10/15/15 04:46 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Actually every dollar that lies dormant in someone's bank account only increases the VALUE of the dollar (even for the poor).

Remember how the gov' prints billions of dollars each year and why a Car used to cost $3,000 (in the 1970s) now costs $30,000. That's because of inflation caused by our government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_tax




The money supply is dynamic not static.  The bulk of our money supply is created through lending from BANKS, through fractional reserve system.  Money sitting in a bank account does not increase the value of the dollar and, in fact, has quite the opposite impact because of fractional reserve lending. 

Perhaps if all the billionaires got together, took all their money out of real estate and securities and, instead just bought physical precious metals and jewels and vaulted it, we'd see a contraction of the money supply, but I doubt it. 

The main reason right now that our economy just can't get going is because banks are more interested in lending to the wealthy and to corporations for financial engineering schemes, stock buybacks and expansion overseas than they are to lending to everyday consumers.  Money is getting into the economy, for sure, it just doesn't get in the way it used to and that's the problem.





Wrong again. The Fractional Reserve System are rules established by the FED (A Government Organization) - This is how OUR GOVERNMENT adds money to the pool- causing inflation.


www.federalreserve.gov/
Federal Reserve System
The "Fed" is the central bank of the United States and controls the money supply.
Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System
The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, commonly known as the Federal Reserve Board, is the main governing body of the Federal Reserve System. It is charged with overseeing the Federal Reserve Banks and with helping implement monetary policy of the United States.





The Federal Reserve is not a government institution.


--------------------
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22384352 - 10/15/15 04:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Actually every dollar that lies dormant in someone's bank account only increases the VALUE of the dollar (even for the poor).

Remember how the gov' prints billions of dollars each year and why a Car used to cost $3,000 (in the 1970s) now costs $30,000. That's because of inflation caused by our government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_tax




The money supply is dynamic not static.  The bulk of our money supply is created through lending from BANKS, through fractional reserve system.  Money sitting in a bank account does not increase the value of the dollar and, in fact, has quite the opposite impact because of fractional reserve lending. 

Perhaps if all the billionaires got together, took all their money out of real estate and securities and, instead just bought physical precious metals and jewels and vaulted it, we'd see a contraction of the money supply, but I doubt it. 

The main reason right now that our economy just can't get going is because banks are more interested in lending to the wealthy and to corporations for financial engineering schemes, stock buybacks and expansion overseas than they are to lending to everyday consumers.  Money is getting into the economy, for sure, it just doesn't get in the way it used to and that's the problem.





Wrong again. The Fractional Reserve System are rules established by the FED (A Government Organization) - This is how OUR GOVERNMENT adds money to the pool- causing inflation.


www.federalreserve.gov/
Federal Reserve System
The "Fed" is the central bank of the United States and controls the money supply.
Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System
The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, commonly known as the Federal Reserve Board, is the main governing body of the Federal Reserve System. It is charged with overseeing the Federal Reserve Banks and with helping implement monetary policy of the United States.





The Federal Reserve is not a government institution.





:lolsy:
The Federal Reserve Act (ch. 6, 38 Stat. 251, enacted December 23, 1913, 12 U.S.C. ch. 3) is an Act of Congress that created and established the Federal Reserve System, the central banking system of the United States, and granted it the legal authority to issue Federal Reserve Notes (now commonly known as the U.S. ...
The Federal Reserve Board, consisting of seven members, was created as the governing body of the Fed. Each member is appointed by the President of the United States and confirmed by the U.S. Senate. In 1935, the Board was renamed and restructured. Also created as part of the Federal Reserve System was a 12-member Federal Advisory Committee and a single new United States currency, the Federal Reserve Note. The Federal Reserve act did create a national currency, but more importantly, the act was to create a monetary system that could respond effectively to the different stresses in the banking system and create a stable financial system. Along with the goal of creating a national monetary system and financial stability, the Federal Reserve Act also provided many other functions and financial services for the economy such as a check clearing and collection for all members of the Federal Reserve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22384398 - 10/15/15 04:56 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
The Federal Reserve is not a government institution.



For all intents and purposes, I would say the Fed is a Government institution, but that's irrelevant to the current discussion.  Yes, money is added to the money supply at a rate that sets inflation around 3% per year.  It's a well know fact that burgerbrain seems to think is some kind of revelation.


--------------------
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22384411 - 10/15/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
The Federal Reserve is not a government institution.



For all intents and purposes, I would say the Fed is a Government institution, but that's irrelevant to the current discussion.  Yes, money is added to the money supply at a rate that sets inflation around 3% per year.  It's a well know fact that burgerbrain seems to think is some kind of revelation.




I was simply trying to educate your liberal friends.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22384443 - 10/15/15 05:03 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
I was simply trying to educate your liberal friends.



wooof is WAY more educated that you are.  And the argument about whether the Fed is public or private can be made both ways.  Regardless, it's irrelevant to the current discussion.


--------------------
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22384473 - 10/15/15 05:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
I was simply trying to educate your liberal friends.



wooof is WAY more educated that you are.  And the argument about whether the Fed is public or private can be made both ways.  Regardless, it's irrelevant to the current discussion.




Yeah educated people go around typing this in forums:

"The Federal Reserve is not a government institution." -Bigbadwooof


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22384518 - 10/15/15 05:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

That's a grey area.  You've argued against things that are black and white.


--------------------
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22387683 - 10/16/15 10:01 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's a grey area.  You've argued against things that are black and white.





Yeah like what?


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22388129 - 10/16/15 12:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You've argued against things that are black and white.





Yeah like what?



You've argued that average wealth is more important than median wealth, even if 400 people own 62% of all wealth.

That means the real wealth of the other 320 million people is less than half of the reported average wealth.  But you don't seem to get that.

(Yes, I know other countries have billionaires, but they don't own 62% of all wealth).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22388641 - 10/16/15 02:27 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You've argued against things that are black and white.





Yeah like what?



You've argued that average wealth is more important than median wealth, even if 400 people own 62% of all wealth.

That means the real wealth of the other 320 million people is less than half of the reported average wealth.  But you don't seem to get that.

(Yes, I know other countries have billionaires, but they don't own 62% of all wealth).





The idea that the wealthiest should have the biggest say, by far, in the direction of the country and what investments the country makes is, at least to me, repulsive.


--------------------
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22388709 - 10/16/15 02:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

:whathesaid:


--------------------
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22389830 - 10/16/15 06:39 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You've argued against things that are black and white.





Yeah like what?



You've argued that average wealth is more important than median wealth, even if 400 people own 62% of all wealth.

That means the real wealth of the other 320 million people is less than half of the reported average wealth.  But you don't seem to get that.

(Yes, I know other countries have billionaires, but they don't own 62% of all wealth).





The idea that the wealthiest should have the biggest say, by far, in the direction of the country and what investments the country makes is, at least to me, repulsive.




yeah, lets let the homeless and poor make policy decisions... great fucking idea!


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22389856 - 10/16/15 06:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You've argued against things that are black and white.





Yeah like what?



You've argued that average wealth is more important than median wealth, even if 400 people own 62% of all wealth.

That means the real wealth of the other 320 million people is less than half of the reported average wealth.  But you don't seem to get that.

(Yes, I know other countries have billionaires, but they don't own 62% of all wealth).





By your graph, in Norway, a few people own 53% of the wealth. So you have no point again.

Average wealth is still a better number to use for multiple reasons. So you have no point again.

So you have no point again.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22389876 - 10/16/15 06:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

By your graph, in Norway, a few people own 53% of the wealth. So you have no point again.

Average wealth is still a better number to use for multiple reasons. So you have no point again.

So you have no point again.




they never do, wealth inequality exists in every country, difference is here, the middle class isn't raped quite as hard...

***insert Bernie Sanders gang rape joke here...


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22390192 - 10/16/15 07:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

By your graph, in Norway, a few people own 53% of the wealth. So you have no point again.

Average wealth is still a better number to use for multiple reasons. So you have no point again.

So you have no point again.




they never do, wealth inequality exists in every country, difference is here, the middle class isn't raped quite as hard...

***insert Bernie Sanders gang rape joke here...





Socialists are joke. Remember the "median" wealth graph? Here's a quote from the median wealth graph page he posted:

"Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth."

That means this graph: Is more valid that his "median" graph that puts the US @ "27th"
Figure 4: Financial Net Wealth of Households

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22390727 - 10/16/15 09:32 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Remember the "median" wealth graph? Here's a quote from the median wealth graph page he posted:

Quote:

Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.




That means this graph: Is more valid that his "median" graph that puts the US @ "27th"



No, it doesn't mean that at all.  He went on to explain that it's simply harder to determine median wealth.

I explained above why median wealth is more relevant, and obviously Professor Davies agrees with me or he wouldn't have used median wealth.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22390736 - 10/16/15 09:34 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Remember the "median" wealth graph? Here's a quote from the median wealth graph page he posted:

Quote:

Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.




That means this graph: Is more valid that his "median" graph that puts the US @ "27th"



No, it doesn't mean that at all.  He went on to explain that it's simply harder to determine median wealth.

I explained above why median wealth is more relevant, and obviously Professor Davies agrees with me or he wouldn't have used median wealth.





Wrong again. In the link you provided:
Quote:

Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.




It does mean that the average wealth is more relevant than median wealth.

I guess you can't read.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22390760 - 10/16/15 09:38 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

How can we debate when basic facts elude socialists?


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22390774 - 10/16/15 09:41 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

"I copied a liberal's thread title but he's the lazy one."


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22390794 - 10/16/15 09:44 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Remember the "median" wealth graph? Here's a quote from the median wealth graph page he posted:

Quote:

Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.




That means this graph: Is more valid that his "median" graph that puts the US @ "27th"



No, it doesn't mean that at all.  He went on to explain that it's simply harder to determine median wealth.

I explained above why median wealth is more relevant, and obviously Professor Davies agrees with me or he wouldn't have used median wealth.





Wrong again. In the link you provided:
Quote:

Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.




It does mean that the average wealth is more relevant than median wealth.

I guess you can't read.




He said the 'data... is more reliable'!!! LMAO!!!
And you, with your incredible interpretation skills, interpret 'the data is more reliable' as 'the data is more relevant'!

I'm fucking sloppy faced drunk, and you still make me feel like a genius. Jesus fucking christ.

This is basic fuckign math that a child understands. Haven't you ever heard of 'weighted averages'? lmao


--------------------
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22390808 - 10/16/15 09:45 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
How can we debate when basic facts elude socialists?




its easy, we just live in fantasy land and call conservatives stupid...


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22390819 - 10/16/15 09:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

@bbw I'm 8 beers deep and it hasn't impaired my ability to comprehend dialogue either.

I guess we're super human :shrug:


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22390821 - 10/16/15 09:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
How can we debate when basic facts elude socialists?




its easy, we just live in fantasy land and call conservatives stupid...




That doesn't even make sense.

You two stooges would have better success "debating" (I'm being gracious as fuck) if all you said was 'Derr de derr derp' and :carlinorgasm:.


--------------------
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22390833 - 10/16/15 09:48 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
@bbw I'm 8 beers deep and it hasn't impaired my ability to comprehend dialogue either.

I guess we're super human :shrug:




I haven't had a drink since January... So I'm tolerance free drunk! lmao


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
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Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22390844 - 10/16/15 09:50 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
@bbw I'm 8 beers deep and it hasn't impaired my ability to comprehend dialogue either.

I guess we're super human :shrug:




I haven't had a drink since January... So I'm tolerance free drunk! lmao




Luckyyyy, I'm drinking yuengling and I'm barely impaired. Craft beer has ruined my tolerance.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #22390851 - 10/16/15 09:51 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
@bbw I'm 8 beers deep and it hasn't impaired my ability to comprehend dialogue either.

I guess we're super human :shrug:




I haven't had a drink since January... So I'm tolerance free drunk! lmao




wow, thats amazing with the shit you post...


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22390856 - 10/16/15 09:52 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

:lolsy:


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22391028 - 10/16/15 10:17 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
He went on to explain that it's simply harder to determine median wealth.

I explained above why median wealth is more relevant, and obviously Professor Davies agrees with me or he wouldn't have used median wealth.




Wrong again. In the link you provided:
Quote:

Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.




It does mean that the average wealth is more relevant than median wealth.

I guess you can't read.



More reliable is not even close to the same as more relevant.  If mean was more relevant, he'd have used the mean.

Again, he went on to say median was more difficult to determine, not that it's less relevant.

Are you not able to understand the difference?  Even drunk liberals can.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22391035 - 10/16/15 10:18 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

:lolsy:


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22391053 - 10/16/15 10:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

More reliable is not even close to the same as more relevant.  If mean was more relevant, he'd have used the mean.

Again, he went on to say median was more difficult to determine, not that it's less relevant.

Are you not able to understand the difference?  Even drunk liberals can.




Quote:


Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.



Your own link disagrees with you.

Reliable data is infinitely more important, more relevant, than unreliable data. You keep posting unreliable data and your link says that the data is unreliable.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22391066 - 10/16/15 10:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
He went on to explain that it's simply harder to determine median wealth.

I explained above why median wealth is more relevant, and obviously Professor Davies agrees with me or he wouldn't have used median wealth.




Wrong again. In the link you provided:
Quote:

Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.




It does mean that the average wealth is more relevant than median wealth.

I guess you can't read.



More reliable is not even close to the same as more relevant.  If mean was more relevant, he'd have used the mean.

Again, he went on to say median was more difficult to determine, not that it's less relevant.

Are you not able to understand the difference?  Even drunk liberals can.




Falcon... You're a classy guy... I'm honestly waiting for these fools to bring out your inner asshole like they've done to me and The Ecstatic. There's no reasoning with them. Come on, join us... it's fun! lmao


Jooooin ussss :eek:


--------------------
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FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22391075 - 10/16/15 10:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

LOL you're being an asshole? I thought you were just being yourself.

:lolsy:


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22391081 - 10/16/15 10:25 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

More reliable is not even close to the same as more relevant.  If mean was more relevant, he'd have used the mean.

Again, he went on to say median was more difficult to determine, not that it's less relevant.

Are you not able to understand the difference?  Even drunk liberals can.




Quote:


Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.



You own link disagrees with you.

Reliable data is infinitely more important, more relevant, than unreliable data. You keep posting unreliable data and your link says that the data is unreliable.




Distance to the moon: 238,900 miles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon

There's some reliable data... More reliable than the median wage here in 'Murica!

I guess that makes it more relevant data to the topic at hand also!

:carlinorgasm:


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22391097 - 10/16/15 10:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

^Socialist attempts to divert from the topic.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22391099 - 10/16/15 10:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
He went on to explain that it's simply harder to determine median wealth.

I explained above why median wealth is more relevant, and obviously Professor Davies agrees with me or he wouldn't have used median wealth.




Wrong again. In the link you provided:
Quote:

Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.




It does mean that the average wealth is more relevant than median wealth.

I guess you can't read.



More reliable is not even close to the same as more relevant.  If mean was more relevant, he'd have used the mean.

Again, he went on to say median was more difficult to determine, not that it's less relevant.

Are you not able to understand the difference?  Even drunk liberals can.




Falcon... You're a classy guy... I'm honestly waiting for these fools to bring out your inner asshole like they've done to me and The Ecstatic. There's no reasoning with them. Come on, join us... it's fun! lmao


Jooooin ussss :eek:






so drunk


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22391113 - 10/16/15 10:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:



so drunk




I hope Jack Nicholson is also drunk... in the gif... for my own peace of mind.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22391127 - 10/16/15 10:33 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

im pretty sure he is lol, the scene is at a bar


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22391323 - 10/16/15 11:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Distance to the moon: 238,900 miles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon

There's some reliable data... More reliable than the median wage here in 'Murica!

I guess that makes it more relevant data to the topic at hand also!



^Socialist attempts to divert from the topic.



No, he hit a home run with that example.  That you can't understand his post says a lot about you.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22391374 - 10/16/15 11:33 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Distance to the moon: 238,900 miles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon

There's some reliable data... More reliable than the median wage here in 'Murica!

I guess that makes it more relevant data to the topic at hand also!



^Socialist attempts to divert from the topic.



No, he hit a home run with that example.  That you can't understand his post says a lot about you.





LOL you socialists are comparing the distance to the moon vs average wealth of the USA and Norway.. Good job Socialists!


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22391418 - 10/16/15 11:45 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
LOL you socialists are comparing the distance to the moon vs average wealth of the USA and Norway.. Good job Socialists!



What, you're saying highly reliable data about the distance to the moon isn't relevant to a country's wealth?
:whatwhatwhat:

Come to think of it, you may be onto something...


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22391422 - 10/16/15 11:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
LOL you socialists are comparing the distance to the moon vs average wealth of the USA and Norway.. Good job Socialists!



What, you're saying highly reliable data about the distance to the moon isn't relevant to a country's wealth?
:whatwhatwhat:

Come to think of it, you may be onto something...





Hehe, when socialists are defeated they argue semantics.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22391434 - 10/16/15 11:53 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

First you said highly reliable data is more relevant than less reliable data.

Then you said it wasn't.  Please give us your final answer.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22391459 - 10/17/15 12:03 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
LOL you socialists are comparing the distance to the moon vs average wealth of the USA and Norway.. Good job Socialists!



What, you're saying highly reliable data about the distance to the moon isn't relevant to a country's wealth?
:whatwhatwhat:

Come to think of it, you may be onto something...





Hehe, when socialists are defeated they argue semantics.




The difference between mean and median is not a 'semantic' difference.

I'm going to break this down for you. Your source said that the data which determines the mean wage is more reliable than the data which determines the median wage. You said that makes it more relevant, because the results of the research which produced the data were more reliable. So, apparently you think data is more relevant to the discussion simply because the research is more reliable (it is harder t gather information on the median wage). Therefore, it follows that all data which is more reliable must be more relevant to the discussion. The distance to the moon can be more reliably measured than the median wage, therefore it must be more relevant to the discussion.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22391471 - 10/17/15 12:06 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

A perfect explanation, though I'm afraid it will be over his head.  I guess we'll see...


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22391524 - 10/17/15 12:31 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
LOL you socialists are comparing the distance to the moon vs average wealth of the USA and Norway.. Good job Socialists!



What, you're saying highly reliable data about the distance to the moon isn't relevant to a country's wealth?
:whatwhatwhat:

Come to think of it, you may be onto something...





Hehe, when socialists are defeated they argue semantics.




The difference between mean and median is not a 'semantic' difference.

I'm going to break this down for you. Your source said that the data which determines the mean wage is more reliable than the data which determines the median wage. You said that makes it more relevant, because the results of the research which produced the data were more reliable. So, apparently you think data is more relevant to the discussion simply because the research is more reliable (it is harder t gather information on the median wage). Therefore, it follows that all data which is more reliable must be more relevant to the discussion. The distance to the moon can be more reliably measured than the median wage, therefore it must be more relevant to the discussion.




Actually I was talking about the word "reliable". Socialist schools really fucked you up huh

Quote:


Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.




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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22391539 - 10/17/15 12:38 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

So is reliable data more relevant than less reliable data or isn't it?  The distance to the moon is highly reliable data... :smirk:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #22391545 - 10/17/15 12:40 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
A perfect explanation, though I'm afraid it will be over his head.  I guess we'll see...




See what I mean? I think I've earned the right to be an asshole now! I wrote that whole paragraph, afterall!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22391590 - 10/17/15 12:53 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
A perfect explanation, though I'm afraid it will be over his head.  I guess we'll see...




See what I mean? I think I've earned the right to be an asshole now! I wrote that whole paragraph, afterall!




You're not arguing against me, you're arguing against Falcon's link.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.




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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22391848 - 10/17/15 04:04 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
He went on to explain that it's simply harder to determine median wealth.

I explained above why median wealth is more relevant, and obviously Professor Davies agrees with me or he wouldn't have used median wealth.




Wrong again. In the link you provided:
Quote:

Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.




It does mean that the average wealth is more relevant than median wealth.

I guess you can't read.



More reliable is not even close to the same as more relevant.  If mean was more relevant, he'd have used the mean.

Again, he went on to say median was more difficult to determine, not that it's less relevant.

Are you not able to understand the difference?  Even drunk liberals can.




You are correct, Super-Lib, median wealth (net worth) is the correct way to analyze this kind of a distribution.  Average can give some information that's useful I would assume, since distribution of wealth in households is surely a normal (gaussian) type distribution.  I believe the government uses median binned by quintile to analyze changes in net worth of households. 

since the net worth of some households is negative, then you actually calculate the RMS value which gives the point at which about 68% of all households wealth would fall under--that is if you are interested in an 'average'

median requires you know every samples value (net wealth) so when you find the middle number, the distribution is divided into upper and lower halfs.  A cumulative distribution function of wealth by household would be an interesting plot to see.

Now, here is the hard part.  By itself, the median wealth really doesn't tell us anything useful.  But if we analyze it over time for changes by group it becomes highly useful.

So if you look at wealth distribution between 2000 and 2015, you will see that there are lots of factors that play into 'wealth;

first, its a normal distribution.  only a few people are going to have super big wealth.  Or really super low. 

And you can also see who made out--people ages 65~75, or bachelors or better, faired better and had a wealth increase in most cases.

going down in age, and socioeconomic class, people with little or no net worth, people with less than a bachelors, took it up the ass bigtime.

Why? 

The key is the 65 to 75 group (retirees) who had some wealth saved.  They did quite well, with a large increase overall in net wealth because they have a guaranteed income (retirement, SS) and saved money that invested properly, grows.

People with no savings had nothing to grow, and if they lost their jobs, their wealth really dropped.

here's the kicker.  government can't just borrow and create money and make people have better wealth--when they go in debt, the value of money falls, so the lower income still lose out. :shrug:

the government can distort the system by high taxation, but then the distribution wouldn't be normal--say in the extreme if all money was evenly distributed among people.  what would happen is eventually, the distribution would return to a normal (bell shaped) distribution and we would be in the same situation.  and someone really good at stats can prove this by the central limit theorem. 

Raising the minimum wage would slightly increase the wealth of some individuals IF it didn't cause people to lose jobs. 

So, how to increase wealth>

improve your education
get a better job
save money.

That's really the only way.  government programs distort the system and cause the dick to go deeper into the little guy.

I'll post those stats if I find them, I think it is by Gottlieb and smith.  The analysis is my conclusion from looking at the data. 

Interesting that the 65~75 age group made out like bandits.  Just shows why the D's like to use the false rhetoric that 'republicans want to push granny over the cliff'  Because the 65~75 retirees are 'getting theirs' and they don't want to be cast down to the heathens. :rofl2:


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22392519 - 10/17/15 09:58 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
You are correct, Super-Lib, median wealth (net worth) is the correct way to analyze this kind of a distribution.



Thanks for stepping in, fellow engineer.  It's really a question of mathematics, not politics, unless you start with the conclusion you want and work your way backwards to see which methodology gets you there.

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
By itself, the median wealth really doesn't tell us anything useful.  But if we analyze it over time for changes by group it becomes highly useful.



While I agree changes over time are highly relevant, I also think median on it's own is very relevant too.  Median tells us exactly how the guy in the middle is doing.  I'm not too interested in how the top 400 is doing, or even the bottom one million for that matter.  I'd like to know how a population is doing as a whole, and the guy in the middle is a reasonable indicator.  Or perhaps the mathematical mode is also a good indicator.  (One estimate says the mode is only 40% of the median.

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
government can't just borrow and create money and make people have better wealth--when they go in debt, the value of money falls, so the lower income still lose out. :shrug:



I agree, and that's why I support ending the social security cap, which currently allows people making over $117,000 to pay less than the 6.2% everyone else has to pay.  No borrowing required.  And for those who call me 'jealous', I'm no longer paying into social security this year, so I'd be one of the folks paying for this.  But it's worth it to me to save social security for everyone else - I come from a humble background and have a lot of less fortunate friends.

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Raising the minimum wage would slightly increase the wealth of some individuals IF it didn't cause people to lose jobs.



Empirical evidence has been posted many times saying it has a negligible effect on jobs in the short term, and a positive effect on jobs in the long term, because so many people would have so much more money to spend, and that's good for the economy.  I haven't seen empirical evidence to the contrary.

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
government programs distort the system and cause the dick to go deeper into the little guy.



I have no idea what your math is behind this conclusion. You can increase wealth for the middle class by increasing minimum wage, by using a progressive tax system, by ensuring unions have a voice in business, etc.

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
I'll post those stats if I find them, I think it is by Gottlieb and smith.  The analysis is my conclusion from looking at the data. 

Interesting that the 65~75 age group made out like bandits.  Just shows why the D's like to use the false rhetoric that 'republicans want to push granny over the cliff'  Because the 65~75 retirees are 'getting theirs' and they don't want to be cast down to the heathens. :rofl2:



Seniors and grannys include 55 year olds.  And yes, republicans want to take away from people in that age group.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/17/15 12:04 PM)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #22393330 - 10/17/15 01:41 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>I love how the left makes shit up about what the right is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
                             
fixed


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22393819 - 10/17/15 03:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Please explain.  Thanks.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22394626 - 10/17/15 06:13 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22394702 - 10/17/15 06:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:




There you go!  He's gonna fill it up!!!  :thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22394830 - 10/17/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

lol! That's right! :wink:


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22394882 - 10/17/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:






Im pretty sure thats a Burberry wallet, so its okay if the liberal socialists empty that bitch out...


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22394904 - 10/17/15 07:21 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Bernie will make all wallets look like that.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22395182 - 10/17/15 08:17 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Cool!  I want a Burberry wallet!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #22395198 - 10/17/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Cool!  I want a Burberry wallet!





keep wanting, you'll never afford one under BS...


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22395247 - 10/17/15 08:29 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Why do you think that?  Everyone but the super rich would have more money, and of course the super rich could afford it.  If you knew anything about Bernie (which you don't seem to), you'd know that he's about raising the standard for the poor and middle class, unlike everyone else who wants to raise it for the rich.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22395646 - 10/17/15 10:09 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why do you think that?  Everyone but the super rich would have more money, and of course the super rich could afford it.  If you knew anything about Bernie (which you don't seem to), you'd know that he's about raising the standard for the poor and middle class, unlike everyone else who wants to raise it for the rich.  :shrug:




My kid's teacher was talking about Donald Trump in class today... He said, 'don't worry, Trump's going to fix everything!' lmao! This is why we have the worst education in the country.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22410930 - 10/20/15 07:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why do you think that?  Everyone but the super rich would have more money, and of course the super rich could afford it.  If you knew anything about Bernie (which you don't seem to), you'd know that he's about raising the standard for the poor and middle class, unlike everyone else who wants to raise it for the rich.  :shrug:




My kid's teacher was talking about Donald Trump in class today... He said, 'don't worry, Trump's going to fix everything!' lmao! This is why we have the worst education in the country.




Actually that teacher is probably the best teacher at your kid's school. Usually teachers vote democrap.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22411636 - 10/20/15 10:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why do you think that?  Everyone but the super rich would have more money, and of course the super rich could afford it.  If you knew anything about Bernie (which you don't seem to), you'd know that he's about raising the standard for the poor and middle class, unlike everyone else who wants to raise it for the rich.  :shrug:




My kid's teacher was talking about Donald Trump in class today... He said, 'don't worry, Trump's going to fix everything!' lmao! This is why we have the worst education in the country.




Actually that teacher is probably the best teacher at your kid's school. Usually teachers vote democrap.




That's because they're not uneducated willful fucking idiots.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22411783 - 10/20/15 11:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why do you think that?  Everyone but the super rich would have more money, and of course the super rich could afford it.  If you knew anything about Bernie (which you don't seem to), you'd know that he's about raising the standard for the poor and middle class, unlike everyone else who wants to raise it for the rich.  :shrug:




My kid's teacher was talking about Donald Trump in class today... He said, 'don't worry, Trump's going to fix everything!' lmao! This is why we have the worst education in the country.




Actually that teacher is probably the best teacher at your kid's school. Usually teachers vote democrap.




That's because they're not uneducated willful fucking idiots.





Hehe, what has voting democrap done for you? An Obamaphone?


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22412287 - 10/21/15 05:03 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Hehe, what has voting democrap done for you? An Obamaphone?




And what exactly has voting GOP gotten you?  How is your world different as a result of your voting history?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22412359 - 10/21/15 06:28 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Hehe, what has voting democrap done for you? An Obamaphone?




And what exactly has voting GOP gotten you?  How is your world different as a result of your voting history?




At this point I'd say it comes down to voting for whoever plans to do the LEAST damage to our economy and the middle class, clearly that choice is GOP


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22412377 - 10/21/15 06:40 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

At this point I'd say it comes down to voting for whoever plans to do the LEAST damage to our economy and the middle class, clearly that choice is GOP




In my lifetime, no administration did more damage to the country and our economy than GWB.  The 08/09 economic train wreck stands alone as the most severe shock I've seen.  Add to that 9/11, the Patriot Act and the Iraq invasion and his administration stands at the absolute pinnacle of total an complete incompetence.  No one else even comes close.

Sure, you'll blame it all on Obama, no doubt ... that the recovery has been slow ... his fault ... he racked up the debt and so on.  I find Obama to be an average Corporate President that surrounded himself with the usual economic characters that push more debt, more globalism and more corporate control. 

McCain/Palin would have been a complete and total disaster, however and chances are we'd be in at least 2 more major ground wars if he had won.  Trump would likely be even worse than McCain or GWB, if that's even conceivable with his go it alone, I know better than everyone else, all the Congress is stupid approach.  He would be totally isolated with few allies.  Hillary would be almost as bad ... maybe even worse because she's probably be impeached within a year or two. 

No good choices out there right now.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

Edited by KauaiOrca (10/21/15 06:51 AM)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22412873 - 10/21/15 09:26 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

In my lifetime, no administration did more damage to the country and our economy than GWB.  The 08/09 economic train wreck stands alone as the most severe shock I've seen.  Add to that 9/11, the Patriot Act and the Iraq invasion and his administration stands at the absolute pinnacle of total an complete incompetence.  No one else even comes close.





You'll get no argument from me that GWB led like a liberal, remember his "compassionate conservatism"? His Medicaid and education bills made me want to throw up

However 08/09 recession can not be laid soley at his feet, don't forget, congress was controlled by dems for two years leading up to it, and to deny their culpability is the height of ignorance, or dishonesty, which is prolly the case here


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22412895 - 10/21/15 09:31 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

However 08/09 recession can not be laid soley at his feet, don't forget, congress was controlled by dems for two years leading up to it, and to deny their culpability is the height of ignorance, or dishonesty, which is prolly the case here




Before 08, the GOP controlled the Presidency for 20 of 28 years and controlled the House of Representatives for 12 of 14 years.  Are you seriously suggesting that 18 months of a Democrat led House caused the economic collapse? 

If that's what you're suggesting, that is, without a doubt, the dumbest thing you've said on this site that I've seen.  Maybe you should read a book or two on what caused the Lehman collapse that set the dominoes falling and how the unregulated derivatives markets that Bush and a GOP led House that controlled all the banking committees had nearly 7 years to fix were at the heart of the problem and were DE-REGULATED by them ... Bush actually bragged over and over about "unleashing the banks" and "letting them compete" in the global marketplace.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22413408 - 10/21/15 11:42 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Hehe, what has voting democrap done for you? An Obamaphone?




And what exactly has voting GOP gotten you?  How is your world different as a result of your voting history?




At this point I'd say it comes down to voting for whoever plans to do the LEAST damage to our economy and the middle class, clearly that choice is GOP




The fact that you say the choice is clear just lends credence to the reputation of GOP voters as uneducated and rabidly anti education.

I would bet every single democrat voter here would acknowledge an ungodly amount of bullshit perpetrated by the Democratic establishment. And thats the difference between the blue base and the red base, at least on this subforum, an ability to see the gray area.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22413514 - 10/21/15 12:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
And what exactly has voting GOP gotten you?  How is your world different as a result of your voting history?



At this point I'd say it comes down to voting for whoever plans to do the LEAST damage to our economy and the middle class, clearly that choice is GOP



How do you define "damage to our economy"???  Any definition I am aware of shows Democrats have done much better.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22413516 - 10/21/15 12:16 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Hehe, what has voting democrap done for you? An Obamaphone?




And what exactly has voting GOP gotten you?  How is your world different as a result of your voting history?




At this point I'd say it comes down to voting for whoever plans to do the LEAST damage to our economy and the middle class, clearly that choice is GOP




The fact that you say the choice is clear just lends credence to the reputation of GOP voters as uneducated and rabidly anti education.

I would bet every single democrat voter here would acknowledge an ungodly amount of bullshit perpetrated by the Democratic establishment. And thats the difference between the blue base and the red base, at least on this subforum, an ability to see the gray area.




More straw man and insults, is that all you have? I've said repeatedly I don't agree with much of what GWB did and that our massive debt is the fault of both parties

I've seen the gray area, when the bush tax cuts kicked in, I seen a boost in my wages, I like that, when Obamacare kicked in, I seen a doubling in my insurance premium, I don't like that, I guess it comes down to what you experience, all politics is local

And I've seen what socialism and totalitarian govts have done to other countries, no thanks

I recently seen a Bernie supporter here, I forget which one, you all look the same, actually support Castro because of his opposition to globalism and anti-corprotism, his free education and free healthcare, the guy had 60 years to make it work and the place was a shithole from start to finish, socialism fails everytime it's tried, Bernies's ideas are nothing new


--------------------
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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22413522 - 10/21/15 12:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

" More strawmen...............heres some more strawmen!"


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22413588 - 10/21/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
" More strawmen...............heres some more strawmen!"




That's a great retort! Are you a Bernie supporter, by chance?


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22413623 - 10/21/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

That's a great retort! Are you a Bernie supporter, by chance?




If it came down to it, would you vote Jeb over Bernie?

Do you have even the slightest idea of what the difference is between militant socialism and a blend of socialism oriented safety nets and regulated "free" markets?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

Edited by KauaiOrca (10/21/15 12:54 PM)

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22413756 - 10/21/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

That's a great retort! Are you a Bernie supporter, by chance?




If it came down to it, would you vote Jeb over Bernie?

Do you have even the slightest idea of what the difference is between militant socialism and a blend of socialism oriented safety nets and regulated "free" markets?




Irrelevant

Are you telling me that militant socialism is so different than the your "blend" of bullshit?


--------------------
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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22413772 - 10/21/15 01:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

That's a great retort! Are you a Bernie supporter, by chance?




If it came down to it, would you vote Jeb over Bernie?

Do you have even the slightest idea of what the difference is between militant socialism and a blend of socialism oriented safety nets and regulated "free" markets?




Irrelevant

Are you telling me that militant socialism is so different than the your "blend" of bullshit?




You tell me ... is there a difference between Nazi Germany and current day Germany?

A difference between the USSR and current day Denmark?

A difference between China pre 1990 and the United States?

The US has been a blend of regulated free markets + social safety nets for over 70 years ...


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22413788 - 10/21/15 01:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Hehe, what has voting democrap done for you? An Obamaphone?




And what exactly has voting GOP gotten you?  How is your world different as a result of your voting history?




At this point I'd say it comes down to voting for whoever plans to do the LEAST damage to our economy and the middle class, clearly that choice is GOP




LOL!!!!!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22413796 - 10/21/15 01:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

That's a great retort! Are you a Bernie supporter, by chance?




If it came down to it, would you vote Jeb over Bernie?

Do you have even the slightest idea of what the difference is between militant socialism and a blend of socialism oriented safety nets and regulated "free" markets?




Irrelevant

Are you telling me that militant socialism is so different than the your "blend" of bullshit?




LOL!!!!!!

Yes.


--------------------
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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22413815 - 10/21/15 01:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

That's a great retort! Are you a Bernie supporter, by chance?




If it came down to it, would you vote Jeb over Bernie?

Do you have even the slightest idea of what the difference is between militant socialism and a blend of socialism oriented safety nets and regulated "free" markets?




Irrelevant

Are you telling me that militant socialism is so different than the your "blend" of bullshit?




You tell me ... is there a difference between Nazi Germany and current day Germany?

A difference between the USSR and current day Denmark?

A difference between China pre 1990 and the United States?

The US has been a blend of regulated free markets + social safety nets for over 70 years ...




yup, and now we are 19 trillion in debt with 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities, hooray socialism!


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22413823 - 10/21/15 01:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
yup, and now we are 19 trillion in debt with 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities, hooray socialism!




That's Capitalist Imperialism, sir. Not Socialism! lmao!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22413849 - 10/21/15 02:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
yup, and now we are 19 trillion in debt with 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities, hooray socialism!




That's Capitalist Imperialism, sir. Not Socialism! lmao!




Lmfao! Yup, it's all capitalism's fault, is that why Canada, Norway, and Denmark don't have any debt???


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22413850 - 10/21/15 02:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

yup, and now we are 19 trillion in debt with 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities, hooray socialism!




Reagan nearly tripled the US debt ... Under Clinton we saw some of the smallest % gains of debt in decades during his administration.

GWB = 9/11 + Iraq war (unfunded) + unfunded expansion of medicare + huge tax cuts increasing deficits + economic train wreck ...

But ... oh yeah ... all the deficits leading to debt are because of democrat socialists!!!! LMAO.

You're truly reaching a new low in terms of saying absolutely stupid stuff. Carry on, it's hilarious.


--------------------
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22413855 - 10/21/15 02:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
yup, and now we are 19 trillion in debt with 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities, hooray socialism!




That's Capitalist Imperialism, sir. Not Socialism! lmao!




Lmfao! Yup, it's all capitalism's fault, is that why Canada, Norway, and Denmark don't have any debt???



Capitalist states all

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22413861 - 10/21/15 02:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

Lmfao! Yup, it's all capitalism's fault, is that why Canada, Norway, and Denmark don't have any debt???




America doesn't have capitalism ... we have predatory, competition discouraging regulated markets.  Read Adam Smith and you'll understand what free market capitalism is ... we are far, far from it.

Ours is a mutant blend of government/military collusion with giant corporations to privatize profits, fund campaigns/enrich the political class and discourage competition.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

Edited by KauaiOrca (10/21/15 02:34 PM)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22413985 - 10/21/15 02:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


Reagan nearly tripled the US debt ... Under Clinton we saw some of the smallest % gains of debt in decades during his administration




Congress was controlled by dems during Reagan, by GOP during Clinton, all spending originates in the house, or are you really that fucking clueless?

Yeah, we shouldn't have went to war, but that's not what is driving out debt

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/23/does-the-united-states-have-128-trillion-in-unfunded-liabilities/

So keep your head in the sand if you want, I am very aware of what and who is driving our debt


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22414016 - 10/21/15 02:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:


Reagan nearly tripled the US debt ... Under Clinton we saw some of the smallest % gains of debt in decades during his administration




Congress was controlled by dems during Reagan, by GOP during Clinton, all spending originates in the house, or are you really that fucking clueless?

Yeah, we shouldn't have went to war, but that's not what is driving out debt

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/23/does-the-united-states-have-128-trillion-in-unfunded-liabilities/

So keep your head in the sand if you want, I am very aware of what and who is driving our debt




Multiple studies have shown that the total increases the Democratic controlled congress added to Reagan's budget amounted to a total of 8% of the increase in deficits under his administration.  Reagan proposed big budgets, got them and then borrowed a ton. That's reality.  He was anything but a fiscal hawk.  He knew the stimulative impact of big spending and that's exactly what he did ... his entire administration.

Take a look at what the Mises institute says about Reagan ... this is coming from a true Austrian Economics, Capitalism (Ron Paul bases his proposals on this) based think tank ...

https://mises.org/library/sad-legacy-ronald-reagan-0

Reagan was all about big government, big spending, big borrowing and blaming it on everyone else.  In other words, he was full of crap when it came to fiscal responsibility.

And once again, you're full of crap too.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22414169 - 10/21/15 03:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:


Reagan nearly tripled the US debt ... Under Clinton we saw some of the smallest % gains of debt in decades during his administration




Congress was controlled by dems during Reagan, by GOP during Clinton, all spending originates in the house, or are you really that fucking clueless?

Yeah, we shouldn't have went to war, but that's not what is driving out debt

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/23/does-the-united-states-have-128-trillion-in-unfunded-liabilities/

So keep your head in the sand if you want, I am very aware of what and who is driving our debt




Multiple studies have shown that the total increases the Democratic controlled congress added to Reagan's budget amounted to a total of 8% of the increase in deficits under his administration.  Reagan proposed big budgets, got them and then borrowed a ton. That's reality.  He was anything but a fiscal hawk.  He knew the stimulative impact of big spending and that's exactly what he did ... his entire administration.

Take a look at what the Mises institute says about Reagan ... this is coming from a true Austrian Economics, Capitalism (Ron Paul bases his proposals on this) based think tank ...

https://mises.org/library/sad-legacy-ronald-reagan-0

Reagan was all about big government, big spending, big borrowing and blaming it on everyone else.  In other words, he was full of crap when it came to fiscal responsibility.

And once again, you're full of crap too.




The fact is, Reagan couldn't have borrowed or spent anything without the consent of a DEMOCRAT controlled congress, that's a fact, and you have NOTHING that can dispute that


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22414190 - 10/21/15 03:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The budget for the Department of Education, which candidate Reagan promised to abolish along with the Department of Energy, has more than doubled to $22.7 billion, Social Security spending has risen from $179 billion in 1981 to $269 billion in 1986. The price of farm programs went from $21.4 billion in 1981 to $51.4 billion in 1987, a 140% increase. And this doesn't count the recently signed $4 billion "drought-relief" measure. Medicare spending in 1981 was $43.5 billion; in 1987 it hit $80 billion. Federal entitlements cost $197.1 billion in 1981—and $477 billion in 1987.




So, which of these would you have had Reagan abolish? These are the big govt, liberal utopia programs that you love! And yet, you bitch about Reagan spending money on them, you're so full of crap!


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22414205 - 10/21/15 03:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:


Reagan nearly tripled the US debt ... Under Clinton we saw some of the smallest % gains of debt in decades during his administration




Congress was controlled by dems during Reagan, by GOP during Clinton, all spending originates in the house, or are you really that fucking clueless?

Yeah, we shouldn't have went to war, but that's not what is driving out debt

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/23/does-the-united-states-have-128-trillion-in-unfunded-liabilities/

So keep your head in the sand if you want, I am very aware of what and who is driving our debt




Multiple studies have shown that the total increases the Democratic controlled congress added to Reagan's budget amounted to a total of 8% of the increase in deficits under his administration.  Reagan proposed big budgets, got them and then borrowed a ton. That's reality.  He was anything but a fiscal hawk.  He knew the stimulative impact of big spending and that's exactly what he did ... his entire administration.

Take a look at what the Mises institute says about Reagan ... this is coming from a true Austrian Economics, Capitalism (Ron Paul bases his proposals on this) based think tank ...

https://mises.org/library/sad-legacy-ronald-reagan-0

Reagan was all about big government, big spending, big borrowing and blaming it on everyone else.  In other words, he was full of crap when it came to fiscal responsibility.

And once again, you're full of crap too.




The fact is, Reagan couldn't have borrowed or spent anything without the consent of a DEMOCRAT controlled congress, that's a fact, and you have NOTHING that can dispute that




The budgets Reagan proposed were accepted by Congress.  He didn't propose big spending cuts.  And, of course Congress plays a big role in spending.  We all know that.

Would you say the same thing about the GOP Congress Obama will have had for 6 of his 8 years?  That they are more responsible for the increase in debt than he is?  Or will you blame it all on the two years of the Democrat controlled congress instead? 

You want it both ways ... blame Obama when he's President and give the GOP congress a free pass, but blame the Democrat congress when they're in power and give your Boy GWB a free pass.  LOL ... typical party pushing Republican tactic.  And, of course give Clinton's economic success credit to Gingrich and gang ... LMAO ...


--------------------
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-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22414284 - 10/21/15 03:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


Reagan nearly tripled the US debt ... Under Clinton we saw some of the smallest % gains of debt in decades during his administration




Congress was controlled by dems during Reagan, by GOP during Clinton, all spending originates in the house, or are you really that fucking clueless?

Yeah, we shouldn't have went to war, but that's not what is driving out debt

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/23/does-the-united-states-have-128-trillion-in-unfunded-liabilities/

So keep your head in the sand if you want, I am very aware of what and who is driving our debt




Multiple studies have shown that the total increases the Democratic controlled congress added to Reagan's budget amounted to a total of 8% of the increase in deficits under his administration.  Reagan proposed big budgets, got them and then borrowed a ton. That's reality.  He was anything but a fiscal hawk.  He knew the stimulative impact of big spending and that's exactly what he did ... his entire administration.

Take a look at what the Mises institute says about Reagan ... this is coming from a true Austrian Economics, Capitalism (Ron Paul bases his proposals on this) based think tank ...

https://mises.org/library/sad-legacy-ronald-reagan-0

Reagan was all about big government, big spending, big borrowing and blaming it on everyone else.  In other words, he was full of crap when it came to fiscal responsibility.

And once again, you're full of crap too.




The fact is, Reagan couldn't have borrowed or spent anything without the consent of a DEMOCRAT controlled congress, that's a fact, and you have NOTHING that can dispute that




The budgets Reagan proposed were accepted by Congress.  He didn't propose big spending cuts.  And, of course Congress plays a big role in spending.  We all know that.

Would you say the same thing about the GOP Congress Obama will have had for 6 of his 8 years?  That they are more responsible for the increase in debt than he is?  Or will you blame it all on the two years of the Democrat controlled congress instead? 

You want it both ways ... blame Obama when he's President and give the GOP congress a free pass, but blame the Democrat congress when they're in power and give your Boy GWB a free pass.  LOL ... typical party pushing Republican tactic.  And, of course give Clinton's economic success credit to Gingrich and gang ... LMAO ...




No, actually  don't, YOU do, I fully blame GOP for overspending, but when GOP tries to curb the spending, what do dems cry? "They're starving children, shutting down the govt, seniors won't get their checks!" You seem to have a very selective memory about what happens when budget cuts are even proposed

Congress plays a huge role in spending, it dems who refuse to cut ANY spending ANY where, you're either blind or willfully ignorant,


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22414796 - 10/21/15 05:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
No, actually  don't, YOU do, I fully blame GOP for overspending, but when GOP tries to curb the spending, what do dems cry? "They're starving children, shutting down the govt, seniors won't get their checks!" You seem to have a very selective memory about what happens when budget cuts are even proposed

Congress plays a huge role in spending, it dems who refuse to cut ANY spending ANY where, you're either blind or willfully ignorant,




That's because the places the want to cut money, and the amount of money they want to cut are not realistic or beneficial to society.

The only candidate I can think of on the GOP side that's reasonable on SOME fiscal issues is Rand Paul. He's the one who wants to cut military spending and draw back out of the wars. He goes way over the edge with other programs though.

Donald Trump wants to 'Rebuild our military'!!! LMAO!!! That's right, I said 'Rebuild'! lolz!!!

Sure, lets dump more money into the BIGGEST waste black fucking hole we have.


--------------------
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FARTS
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Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22414832 - 10/21/15 06:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
No, actually  don't, YOU do, I fully blame GOP for overspending, but when GOP tries to curb the spending, what do dems cry? "They're starving children, shutting down the govt, seniors won't get their checks!" You seem to have a very selective memory about what happens when budget cuts are even proposed

Congress plays a huge role in spending, it dems who refuse to cut ANY spending ANY where, you're either blind or willfully ignorant,




That's because the places the want to cut money, and the amount of money they want to cut are not realistic or beneficial to society.

The only candidate I can think of on the GOP side that's reasonable on SOME fiscal issues is Rand Paul. He's the one who wants to cut military spending and draw back out of the wars. He goes way over the edge with other programs though.

Donald Trump wants to 'Rebuild our military'!!! LMAO!!! That's right, I said 'Rebuild'! lolz!!!

Sure, lets dump more money into the BIGGEST waste black fucking hole we have.




Obama came in as the biggest anti-military spending US president since Carter, then what happened?  Full spending ahead!!

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22414854 - 10/21/15 06:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Obama is one of the maybe 5 Americans who can't run for president in 2016.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22414856 - 10/21/15 06:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
No, actually  don't, YOU do, I fully blame GOP for overspending, but when GOP tries to curb the spending, what do dems cry? "They're starving children, shutting down the govt, seniors won't get their checks!" You seem to have a very selective memory about what happens when budget cuts are even proposed

Congress plays a huge role in spending, it dems who refuse to cut ANY spending ANY where, you're either blind or willfully ignorant,




That's because the places the want to cut money, and the amount of money they want to cut are not realistic or beneficial to society.

The only candidate I can think of on the GOP side that's reasonable on SOME fiscal issues is Rand Paul. He's the one who wants to cut military spending and draw back out of the wars. He goes way over the edge with other programs though.

Donald Trump wants to 'Rebuild our military'!!! LMAO!!! That's right, I said 'Rebuild'! lolz!!!

Sure, lets dump more money into the BIGGEST waste black fucking hole we have.





Yeah, because 19 TRILLION  in debt is beneficial to society, do you even think about the shit you post?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22414872 - 10/21/15 06:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

^ what about that post leads you to believe he's advocating more debt?

Jesus Christ :facepalm:


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22414879 - 10/21/15 06:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
^ what about that post leads you to believe he's advocating more debt?

Jesus Christ :facepalm:




Are you retarded? 18 TRILLION in additional spending with no way to pay for it


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22414913 - 10/21/15 06:20 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
^ what about that post leads you to believe he's advocating more debt?

Jesus Christ :facepalm:




Are you retarded? 18 TRILLION in additional spending with no way to pay for it




If you're referring to Bernie, that 18 Trillion is not 'additional spending'. He also has a plan to pay for it.


--------------------
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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22414950 - 10/21/15 06:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

LOL that $18T article has been thoroughly debunked.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22414994 - 10/21/15 06:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
LOL that $18T article has been thoroughly debunked.




I noticed you didn't cite a source, is it because your whole post is bullshit?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22415209 - 10/21/15 07:14 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
LOL that $18T article has been thoroughly debunked.




I noticed you didn't cite a source, is it because your whole post is bullshit?




No it's because you don't even agree with your own sources, let alone others'.


But here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2015/09/15/no-bernie-sanders-is-not-going-to-bankrupt-america-to-the-tune-of-18-trillion/


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22415231 - 10/21/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

How about a letter from the guy whose research was cited by the Wall Street Journal?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerald-friedman/the-wall-street-journal-k_b_8143062.html

He said the WSJ's interpretation of his numbers was a big mistake.

How many times do conservatives have to be proven wrong until they finally start to question their sources???


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22415251 - 10/21/15 07:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I've already posted the WaPo link several times when the $18T number is brought up, I guess these people have short term memory loss idk :shrug:


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22415366 - 10/21/15 07:46 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I think it's worse than short term memory loss - they don't seem to read the evidence proving their points wrong.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22415377 - 10/21/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I think it's worse than short term memory loss - they don't seem to read the evidence proving their points wrong.  :shrug:




Washington post is hardly credible, but even with that, you think this is revenue neutral? Y'all fucked in the head...


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22415418 - 10/21/15 07:57 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

everyone is always so up in arms about debt.  Now don't get me wrong, i think reserve banking is a horrible scam on the public. However, it is the system we have adopted.  Here's the thing that people forget about our monetary system: every single federal reserve note (dollar bill) represents 1 dollar+interest.  Thats because the assets backing those dollars are debt. (the full faith and credit of the united states government) No debt=no dollars.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22415461 - 10/21/15 08:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
everyone is always so up in arms about debt.  Now don't get me wrong, i think reserve banking is a horrible scam on the public. However, it is the system we have adopted.  Here's the thing that people forget about our monetary system: every single federal reserve note (dollar bill) represents 1 dollar+interest.  Thats because the assets backing those dollars are debt. (the full faith and credit of the united states government) No debt=no dollars.


p

That is severe BS, no debt= no dollars? That's maybe the most crazy shit I've seen put forward, just strait up insanity


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #22415470 - 10/21/15 08:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Obumble jacked up the debt more than all previous presidents in our 200 year history combined. That is a fact and the left can not erase it. Instead of getting a great economy out of the deal, roads fixed, mass transportation, r+d into things we need, instead of that we get bombs blowing up arabs. Only psychopaths think that is a good deal. Our economy is creaking and many signs point to a crash ahead. Who will we blame that on, shrub? Maybe Reagan?

The idiot in the white house wants more troops in Afghanistan, indefinitely. The billions he threw around in Syria have yielded nothing except grief for the civilians, death and displacement.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22415491 - 10/21/15 08:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Nope, sorry, i know it sounds crazy, but thats the monetary system we live under.

give this book a read if you are feeling up to it.  I disagree with some of the author's conclusions, but his facts are solid.  It is about the Federal Reserve, but it also has a nice short history of money.
https://archive.org/details/CreatureFromJekyllIslandByG.Edward-G.EdwardGriffin


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22415785 - 10/21/15 09:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Great book :highfive:


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22416114 - 10/21/15 11:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
everyone is always so up in arms about debt.  Now don't get me wrong, i think reserve banking is a horrible scam on the public. However, it is the system we have adopted.  Here's the thing that people forget about our monetary system: every single federal reserve note (dollar bill) represents 1 dollar+interest.  Thats because the assets backing those dollars are debt. (the full faith and credit of the united states government) No debt=no dollars.


p

That is severe BS, no debt= no dollars? That's maybe the most crazy shit I've seen put forward, just strait up insanity




That's how reserve banking works. It is ridiculous, btw.


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22416435 - 10/22/15 01:43 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Washington post is hardly credible



Dude, the guy whose research was cited by the Wall Street Journal said the Journal was full of shit.  Obviously in this case the Washington post was proven correct.  :facepalm:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22416476 - 10/22/15 02:05 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
give this book a read if you are feeling up to it.  It is about the Federal Reserve, but it also has a nice short history of money.
https://archive.org/details/CreatureFromJekyllIslandByG.Edward-G.EdwardGriffin



Great book :highfive:



I read it.  The author is a batshit crazy conspiracy nut.  I wrote an extensive review of what he gets wrong and why, but I can't seem to find it here.  Perhaps it was in a Facebook discussion.  Does anyone know if there's a way to search Facebook for old posts?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22416507 - 10/22/15 02:32 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I found an early draft of my critique of The Creature from Jekyll Island.  It's incomplete, but gets a few good points across:


Claim #1.  The Federal Reserve is a cartel designed to eliminate competition in banking and thereby generate huge profits for its members

First of all, the Federal Reserve and the banks are VERY different.  How often do you ask the Federal Reserve for a home loan, or deposit your paycheck into a Federal Reserve checking account?  Banks are everywhere, with no sign of a banking monopoly.
Second, virtually all profits of the Fed go to the Government, except a nominal fee for member banks
Third, see how much the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, makes each year and how much he is worth.


Claim #2.  Banks make huge profits from the Federal Reserve because if the Fed loans money to the Government, that money is now available for people to deposit into banks, which then collect more interest on it

True, it also means EVERYONE has more money, some of it gets deposited into banks and some of it gets spent to stimulate the economy (banks just get a piece of the action that everyone else is getting)


Claim #3.  By creating new money, existing money is diluted and the Government is making out while everyone else loses ("Inflation is a tax").

True, except this is no secret.  Everyone knows there is about a 3% inflation rate per year (on average) and people invest or save accordingly.  Most people get a cost of living adjustment each year to their salary to adjust for this, so they're not really losing money (unless they stash money in their couch, and don't invest it to make up for inflation).


Claim #4.  Inflation allowed Governments to collect an extra 40% - 80% tax without the people knowing it.

Not in the US.  Inflation here is about 3% (not 40% - 80%), and EVERY business KNOWS about it.


Claim #5.  The Fed allows banks to charge interest on "money" that doesn't even exist.

This allows businesses to borrow money at a lower interest rate, which helps businesses.



I wished I could find the final version, as this one was just the beginning.  Oh well.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #22416983 - 10/22/15 06:55 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

It is our FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING SYSTEM that creates most of the money that is in circulation.  There are advantages and disadvantages to this system of lending but if you want to get rid of it, you need some way of creating all the money needed to build the buildings, fund mortgages, fund corporate expansion, etc.

The money supply is NEVER fixed.  It is dynamic and always changing.  It is LENDING that generates our money supply. 

We could have a discussion about derivatives now given the total value of the derivatives market is now over 850 TRILLION dollars.  This is the latest greatest scam of how the wealthiest create assets out of fictional debt generated by enormous leverage off of margin (borrowing) accounts.  In essence you borrow huge sums (often 200X what your capital is) and trade with it then take the profits and convert that to assets.  Unfortunately about .0001% of Americans understand how this works and this is the real problem with America's financial system and the underlying cause of the 08/09 financial crisis.  Derivatives are the equivalent of financial WMD's the way they are now being used and traded by giant financial institutions, many though dark pools of investment capital.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22417100 - 10/22/15 07:51 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Do your panties get wet when you think about derivatives? Unless you are trading in them, they have zero effect on your life, lol

Before 1913, we didn't even have the fed, how did anything get done?


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22417112 - 10/22/15 07:54 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Do your panties get wet when you think about derivatives? Unless you are trading in them, they have zero effect on your life, lol

Before 1913, we didn't even have the fed, how did anything get done?




America had several iterations of central banks before 1913.  Central Banks were generally brought in because congress did a poor job themselves of managing the money supply. Do you really want congress to use the  money supply as a tool during the political cycle?  I can't imagine a worse way to manage our money supply then to give it to partisan politicians looking to score points each election cycle.

Derivatives have a huge impact on investments ... you just don't understand them.  Options, futures, currencies ... all depend on derivatives trading.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22417125 - 10/22/15 07:59 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Unfortunately about .0001% of Americans understand how this works




You're so smart

It's not fair that the top 1% have 99% of the knowledge, we definitely need to break up the big colleges


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22417156 - 10/22/15 08:10 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Do your panties get wet when you think about derivatives? Unless you are trading in them, they have zero effect on your life, lol

Before 1913, we didn't even have the fed, how did anything get done?




America had several iterations of central banks before 1913.  Central Banks were generally brought in because congress did a poor job themselves of managing the money supply. Do you really want congress to use the  money supply as a tool during the political cycle?  I can't imagine a worse way to manage our money supply then to give it to partisan politicians looking to score points each election cycle.

Derivatives have a huge impact on investments ... you just don't understand them.  Options, futures, currencies ... all depend on derivatives trading.




One of my moms friends was trying to show me how to use a program to trade on Forex... for some reason I got the impression that currency trading was illegal for US citizens. I was in highschool, so I didn't quite understand all of it, but I wanted to!

Shit, even guys like you and me could take out loans and trade them for profits... the only problem is they use complex computer programs and insider knowledge to turn a profit... I don't know how it works. I think they prefer it that way >.<


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22417225 - 10/22/15 08:36 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Do your panties get wet when you think about derivatives? Unless you are trading in them, they have zero effect on your life, lol

Before 1913, we didn't even have the fed, how did anything get done?




America had several iterations of central banks before 1913.  Central Banks were generally brought in because congress did a poor job themselves of managing the money supply. Do you really want congress to use the  money supply as a tool during the political cycle?  I can't imagine a worse way to manage our money supply then to give it to partisan politicians looking to score points each election cycle.

Derivatives have a huge impact on investments ... you just don't understand them.  Options, futures, currencies ... all depend on derivatives trading.




One of my moms friends was trying to show me how to use a program to trade on Forex... for some reason I got the impression that currency trading was illegal for US citizens. I was in highschool, so I didn't quite understand all of it, but I wanted to!

Shit, even guys like you and me could take out loans and trade them for profits... the only problem is they use complex computer programs and insider knowledge to turn a profit... I don't know how it works. I think they prefer it that way >.<




Just ask porka, she knows how they work and can prolly show you, I'd ask her to show me, but I don't think she likes me


--------------------
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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22417239 - 10/22/15 08:43 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Unfortunately about .0001% of Americans understand how this works




You're so smart






Appreciate that.  I can't say the same about you.  You should ask more questions, listen more and resist the temptation to remind us, over and over again, how ignorant you are about socialism, capitalism, our monetary system and business in general.


--------------------
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-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22417263 - 10/22/15 08:53 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I found an early draft of my critique of The Creature from Jekyll Island.  It's incomplete, but gets a few good points across:


Claim #1.  The Federal Reserve is a cartel designed to eliminate competition in banking and thereby generate huge profits for its members

First of all, the Federal Reserve and the banks are VERY different.  How often do you ask the Federal Reserve for a home loan, or deposit your paycheck into a Federal Reserve checking account?  Banks are everywhere, with no sign of a banking monopoly.
Second, virtually all profits of the Fed go to the Government, except a nominal fee for member banks
Third, see how much the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, makes each year and how much he is worth.


Claim #2.  Banks make huge profits from the Federal Reserve because if the Fed loans money to the Government, that money is now available for people to deposit into banks, which then collect more interest on it

True, it also means EVERYONE has more money, some of it gets deposited into banks and some of it gets spent to stimulate the economy (banks just get a piece of the action that everyone else is getting)


Claim #3.  By creating new money, existing money is diluted and the Government is making out while everyone else loses ("Inflation is a tax").

True, except this is no secret.  Everyone knows there is about a 3% inflation rate per year (on average) and people invest or save accordingly.  Most people get a cost of living adjustment each year to their salary to adjust for this, so they're not really losing money (unless they stash money in their couch, and don't invest it to make up for inflation).


Claim #4.  Inflation allowed Governments to collect an extra 40% - 80% tax without the people knowing it.

Not in the US.  Inflation here is about 3% (not 40% - 80%), and EVERY business KNOWS about it.


Claim #5.  The Fed allows banks to charge interest on "money" that doesn't even exist.

This allows businesses to borrow money at a lower interest rate, which helps businesses.



I wished I could find the final version, as this one was just the beginning.  Oh well.




Re: #1: There are definitely signs of near monopolies in banking, and certainly collusion. But as far as Fed profits go, the member banks are more concerned with policy.

I pretty much agree with you on the rest though. The specifics get overblown and sensationalized, but I still disagree with the concept of fractional reserve banking.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22417283 - 10/22/15 09:03 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

Just ask porka, she knows how they work and can prolly show you, I'd ask her to show me, but I don't think she likes me




Way over your pay grade, Hostile.  I've already given you a reading list which you haven't even started on.  You need some basic education on capitalism, communism, socialism, free markets, how our lending system works ...

Basic homework, bud.  That's where you should start.  Get past the slogans and develop your mind.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22417321 - 10/22/15 09:15 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I found an early draft of my critique of The Creature from Jekyll Island.  It's incomplete, but gets a few good points across:


Claim #1.  The Federal Reserve is a cartel designed to eliminate competition in banking and thereby generate huge profits for its members

First of all, the Federal Reserve and the banks are VERY different.  How often do you ask the Federal Reserve for a home loan, or deposit your paycheck into a Federal Reserve checking account?  Banks are everywhere, with no sign of a banking monopoly.
Second, virtually all profits of the Fed go to the Government, except a nominal fee for member banks
Third, see how much the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, makes each year and how much he is worth.


Claim #2.  Banks make huge profits from the Federal Reserve because if the Fed loans money to the Government, that money is now available for people to deposit into banks, which then collect more interest on it

True, it also means EVERYONE has more money, some of it gets deposited into banks and some of it gets spent to stimulate the economy (banks just get a piece of the action that everyone else is getting)


Claim #3.  By creating new money, existing money is diluted and the Government is making out while everyone else loses ("Inflation is a tax").

True, except this is no secret.  Everyone knows there is about a 3% inflation rate per year (on average) and people invest or save accordingly.  Most people get a cost of living adjustment each year to their salary to adjust for this, so they're not really losing money (unless they stash money in their couch, and don't invest it to make up for inflation).


Claim #4.  Inflation allowed Governments to collect an extra 40% - 80% tax without the people knowing it.

Not in the US.  Inflation here is about 3% (not 40% - 80%), and EVERY business KNOWS about it.


Claim #5.  The Fed allows banks to charge interest on "money" that doesn't even exist.

This allows businesses to borrow money at a lower interest rate, which helps businesses.



I wished I could find the final version, as this one was just the beginning.  Oh well.




"Fed loans money to the government"

How so?

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22417333 - 10/22/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

How so?




US Treasuries are exchanged for Federal Reserve Notes.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22417356 - 10/22/15 09:28 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"Fed loans money to the government"

How so?




https://archive.org/details/CreatureFromJekyllIslandByG.Edward-G.EdwardGriffin

page 193


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22417375 - 10/22/15 09:35 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Obumble jacked up the debt more than all previous presidents in our 200 year history combined. That is a fact and the left can not erase it. Instead of getting a great economy out of the deal, roads fixed, mass transportation, r+d into things we need, instead of that we get bombs blowing up arabs. Only psychopaths think that is a good deal. Our economy is creaking and many signs point to a crash ahead. Who will we blame that on, shrub? Maybe Reagan?

The idiot in the white house wants more troops in Afghanistan, indefinitely. The billions he threw around in Syria have yielded nothing except grief for the civilians, death and displacement.




Well said. Obumble is doing his best to destroy our country


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22417378 - 10/22/15 09:36 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

Just ask porka, she knows how they work and can prolly show you, I'd ask her to show me, but I don't think she likes me




Way over your pay grade, Hostile.  I've already given you a reading list which you haven't even started on.  You need some basic education on capitalism, communism, socialism, free markets, how our lending system works ...

Basic homework, bud.  That's where you should start.  Get past the slogans and develop your mind.





Typical ad-hominem attacks from the left


--------------------

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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22417382 - 10/22/15 09:37 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:

How so?




US Treasuries are exchanged for Federal Reserve Notes.




Yep.

What most people don't understand is #5, banks charging interest on money that doesn't even exist.

That's why in a real booming economy, owning bank equities can be a great investment.

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22417386 - 10/22/15 09:37 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Typical ad-hominem attacks from the left




Except, of course, that I'm not a lefty ... not even close ... and am probably more fiscally conservative than you are.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22417390 - 10/22/15 09:38 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Typical ad-hominem attacks from the left




Except, of course, that I'm not a lefty ... not even close ... and am probably more fiscally conservative than you are.




Not a lefty? Fiscally conservative? It looks like you're gonna vote for Bernie, what the fuck are you talking about? Give specific examples of your conservatism.


--------------------

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22417407 - 10/22/15 09:42 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:

How so?




US Treasuries are exchanged for Federal Reserve Notes.




Yep.

What most people don't understand is #5, banks charging interest on money that doesn't even exist.

That's why in a real booming economy, owning bank equities can be a great investment.




Banks do charge interest on money they don't actually "have" and, of course, they accept the risk of default on that as well.  Therein lies the leverage that can wipe a bank out quickly when real estate prices drop quickly and why our country is so quick to act to prevent big real estate drops.  Fractional reserve lending is a big form of leverage ...

I think the answer is to keep the FED going but also introduce a COMPETING currency issued by the US treasury directly so that there is more competition to Federal Reserve Notes.  Lincoln tried it and so did Kennedy but we need a much bigger injection of US DOLLARS (not Fed Reserve Notes) into our system that are targeted more toward the real economy and not the uber investment economy of share buybacks, financial engineering and covering giant margin accounts.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22417464 - 10/22/15 09:58 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

Just ask porka, she knows how they work and can prolly show you, I'd ask her to show me, but I don't think she likes me




Way over your pay grade, Hostile.  I've already given you a reading list which you haven't even started on.  You need some basic education on capitalism, communism, socialism, free markets, how our lending system works ...

Basic homework, bud.  That's where you should start.  Get past the slogans and develop your mind.





Typical ad-hominem attacks from the left




I don't think you understand how logic works.  Someone can reach the right conclusion for the wrong reasons.

Your biggest fallacy is 'Argument from Fallacy'.

Argument from fallacy is the formal fallacy of analyzing an argument and inferring that, since it contains a fallacy, its conclusion must be false.

Also ad-hominem is only a fallacy when you use it to reach a conclusion.  Orca telling you that you should really educate yourself on a topic before trying to discuss it is sound advice.  Orca saying you're wrong because you're a lefty (see what I did there :wink:) is ad-hominem.

*edit*  Additionally if Orca just said you're dumb.  That's not ad-hominem.  There's no argument attached.  It's just a statement of fact or opinion.

If Orca said, you're dumb, because you don't read up on topics before commenting on them, that's also not ad-hominem.  Orca would be using the argument BB doesn't read up on topics before commenting on them to reach the conclusion that burgerbrain is dumb.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

Edited by paperbackwriter (10/22/15 10:05 AM)

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22417503 - 10/22/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Not a lefty? Fiscally conservative? It looks like you're gonna vote for Bernie, what the fuck are you talking about? Give specific examples of your conservatism.




Where have I indicated anywhere I'm voting for Bernie?  Show one quote on that? 

Here is my economic plan to fix our economy ...

1) Break up the big banks, instate the Volker Rule and put taxes on all forms of high frequency trading ... especially bid/offers that don't get executed
2) Make importation of middle east oil illegal after 2020.  Pass a energy independence act for the Americas.
3) Create an OPTION for corporations to pay a 10% corporate rate if the VOLUNTARILY shrink the pay gap, top to bottom to no more than 25x.  If they don't want that option, they stay with the current corporate tax plan.  Include overseas outsourcing of jobs in the formula.
4) Encourage overseas corporate money to come home if it parks for 5 years in a technology investment bank focused on next generation energy and nano technology lending to smaller startups.
5) Expand the community college network dramatically and make it an integral part of how all forms of government assistance are handed out ... want food stamps?  Go to class and get job training.
6) Increase taxes dramatically on any income over 10 million a year. 
7) Dramatic campaign finance reform that takes the advantage the wealthy have AWAY so that every voter's voice is equal.
8) Force all politicians, CEO's and Lobbyists to disclose, every quarter, every meeting, agreement and discussion topic they had in terms of influencing political votes or face teethy prosecution.
9) Give labor an equal number of seats on corporate boards the way Germany does it.
10) Create a teaching corps of nationwide navy seal quality teaching trainers to start spreading top performer best teaching practices to every school.

You call that a liberal manifesto?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22417523 - 10/22/15 10:17 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I see you as progressive Orca.  You support a lot of radical changes.  That's a progressive agenda.

The term left and right originated during the french revolution by the way.  Those on the left wanted democracy, those on the right supported the monarchy.

I think a degree of progressiveness and conservatism is in all of us.  It's the desire to keep the kids safe in the cave vs. the need to adapt.  At least that's how I see it.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

Edited by paperbackwriter (10/22/15 10:21 AM)

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22417659 - 10/22/15 11:00 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I see you as progressive Orca.  You support a lot of radical changes.  That's a progressive agenda.

The term left and right originated during the french revolution by the way.  Those on the left wanted democracy, those on the right supported the monarchy.

I think a degree of progressiveness and conservatism is in all of us.  It's the desire to keep the kids safe in the cave vs. the need to adapt.  At least that's how I see it.




In our hyper sensitive political era, certain words carry truckloads of baggage ... "Progressive" is one of those words as it has now been tagged as a word that applies to the most liberal wing of the Democratic party.  I actually favor lower corporate taxes for companies that shrink the pay gap ... prefer a lot more accountability for many of our safety net programs, favor a shrinking of the Federal Government's influence on issues like education and commerce ... I'd like to see the country move toward a more regional governing model with much less spending at the Federal level ... I do think that many of our social programs have fostered and perpetuated government dependence and institutional poverty and I agree we need huge reforms of our immigration policies and enforcement to include the deportation of a lot (certainly not 11 million) of people that shouldn't be here.  I'd like to see the Federal Government accountable for balancing the budget and much more long term budgeting and planning in the process. 

I guess what I'm against most are the institutional candidates that push more and more of this mafia like two party control system on the country ... the Bush/Clinton situation nauseates me ...


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22417710 - 10/22/15 11:12 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I hear ya.  Liberal has changed a lot since Locke too.

I think most of us can agree that our democracy has become very corrupt and polluted by money.

I wonder if spying on us and arresting whistleblowers is what Obama meant when he said his administration would be transparent.

:obamafrown:


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22417826 - 10/22/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Obumble jacked up the debt more than all previous presidents in our 200 year history combined. That is a fact and the left can not erase it. Instead of getting a great economy out of the deal, roads fixed, mass transportation, r+d into things we need, instead of that we get bombs blowing up arabs. Only psychopaths think that is a good deal. Our economy is creaking and many signs point to a crash ahead. Who will we blame that on, shrub? Maybe Reagan?

The idiot in the white house wants more troops in Afghanistan, indefinitely. The billions he threw around in Syria have yielded nothing except grief for the civilians, death and displacement.




Well said. Obumble is doing his best to destroy our country




Your screen name is as apt as hostile's avatar.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22418358 - 10/22/15 01:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I hear ya.  Liberal has changed a lot since Locke too.

I think most of us can agree that our democracy has become very corrupt and polluted by money.

I wonder if spying on us and arresting whistleblowers is what Obama meant when he said his administration would be transparent.

:obamafrown:




Obama has been a serious disappointment on a number of fronts ... The sheer dysfunction of our political process that is always in "next election mode" is a much bigger disappointment.  I don't think it's even possible in our current political environment for a President to have the kind of impact the voters would like to see.  Having said that, Obama blew his first 2 years when he had a strong majority ... immigration reform, a serious infrastructure rebuilding plan and trade reform to bring jobs home would have had more impact ...

He allowed the insurance corporations to get what they wanted ... big mistake.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22418422 - 10/22/15 01:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Obama has been a serious disappointment on a number of fronts ... The sheer dysfunction of our political process that is always in "next election mode" is a much bigger disappointment.  I don't think it's even possible in our current political environment for a President to have the kind of impact the voters would like to see.  Having said that, Obama blew his first 2 years when he had a strong majority ... immigration reform, a serious infrastructure rebuilding plan and trade reform to bring jobs home would have had more impact ...

He allowed the insurance corporations to get what they wanted ... big mistake.




Yep.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22419206 - 10/22/15 05:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Not a lefty? Fiscally conservative? It looks like you're gonna vote for Bernie, what the fuck are you talking about? Give specific examples of your conservatism.




Where have I indicated anywhere I'm voting for Bernie?  Show one quote on that? 

Here is my economic plan to fix our economy ...

1) Break up the big banks, instate the Volker Rule and put taxes on all forms of high frequency trading ... especially bid/offers that don't get executed
2) Make importation of middle east oil illegal after 2020.  Pass a energy independence act for the Americas.
3) Create an OPTION for corporations to pay a 10% corporate rate if the VOLUNTARILY shrink the pay gap, top to bottom to no more than 25x.  If they don't want that option, they stay with the current corporate tax plan.  Include overseas outsourcing of jobs in the formula.
4) Encourage overseas corporate money to come home if it parks for 5 years in a technology investment bank focused on next generation energy and nano technology lending to smaller startups.
5) Expand the community college network dramatically and make it an integral part of how all forms of government assistance are handed out ... want food stamps?  Go to class and get job training.
6) Increase taxes dramatically on any income over 10 million a year. 
7) Dramatic campaign finance reform that takes the advantage the wealthy have AWAY so that every voter's voice is equal.
8) Force all politicians, CEO's and Lobbyists to disclose, every quarter, every meeting, agreement and discussion topic they had in terms of influencing political votes or face teethy prosecution.
9) Give labor an equal number of seats on corporate boards the way Germany does it.
10) Create a teaching corps of nationwide navy seal quality teaching trainers to start spreading top performer best teaching practices to every school.

You call that a liberal manifesto?




That list is full of liberal (progressive) doctrine. Get a clue; wealth inequality, pro-labor union, anti-oil, pro-taxes, anti-corporation garbage is not something you hear conservatives saying.

PS. You're either voting for Bernie or the next socialist that comes along. Are you are aren't you? You're not very clear on this subject.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22419221 - 10/22/15 05:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Posts: 3,131
Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22419224 - 10/22/15 05:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Not a lefty? Fiscally conservative? It looks like you're gonna vote for Bernie, what the fuck are you talking about? Give specific examples of your conservatism.




Where have I indicated anywhere I'm voting for Bernie?  Show one quote on that? 

Here is my economic plan to fix our economy ...

1) Break up the big banks, instate the Volker Rule and put taxes on all forms of high frequency trading ... especially bid/offers that don't get executed
2) Make importation of middle east oil illegal after 2020.  Pass a energy independence act for the Americas.
3) Create an OPTION for corporations to pay a 10% corporate rate if the VOLUNTARILY shrink the pay gap, top to bottom to no more than 25x.  If they don't want that option, they stay with the current corporate tax plan.  Include overseas outsourcing of jobs in the formula.
4) Encourage overseas corporate money to come home if it parks for 5 years in a technology investment bank focused on next generation energy and nano technology lending to smaller startups.
5) Expand the community college network dramatically and make it an integral part of how all forms of government assistance are handed out ... want food stamps?  Go to class and get job training.
6) Increase taxes dramatically on any income over 10 million a year. 
7) Dramatic campaign finance reform that takes the advantage the wealthy have AWAY so that every voter's voice is equal.
8) Force all politicians, CEO's and Lobbyists to disclose, every quarter, every meeting, agreement and discussion topic they had in terms of influencing political votes or face teethy prosecution.
9) Give labor an equal number of seats on corporate boards the way Germany does it.
10) Create a teaching corps of nationwide navy seal quality teaching trainers to start spreading top performer best teaching practices to every school.

You call that a liberal manifesto?




That list is full of liberal (progressive) doctrine. Get a clue; wealth inequality, pro-labor union, anti-oil, pro-taxes, anti-corporation garbage is not something you hear conservatives saying.




LMAO ... you see what you want to see ... What liberal calls for LOWER corporate taxes?  How about a tax incentive to bring all that untaxed corporate money back to the US?  More accountability for those getting govt assistance?  Focus on teaching quality to break the death grip of teacher's unions that protect crummy teachers?

Oh yeah ... that's Liberal doctrine.

No wonder you call yourself burger brain.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Posts: 962
Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22419244 - 10/22/15 05:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Not a lefty? Fiscally conservative? It looks like you're gonna vote for Bernie, what the fuck are you talking about? Give specific examples of your conservatism.




Where have I indicated anywhere I'm voting for Bernie?  Show one quote on that? 

Here is my economic plan to fix our economy ...

1) Break up the big banks, instate the Volker Rule and put taxes on all forms of high frequency trading ... especially bid/offers that don't get executed
2) Make importation of middle east oil illegal after 2020.  Pass a energy independence act for the Americas.
3) Create an OPTION for corporations to pay a 10% corporate rate if the VOLUNTARILY shrink the pay gap, top to bottom to no more than 25x.  If they don't want that option, they stay with the current corporate tax plan.  Include overseas outsourcing of jobs in the formula.
4) Encourage overseas corporate money to come home if it parks for 5 years in a technology investment bank focused on next generation energy and nano technology lending to smaller startups.
5) Expand the community college network dramatically and make it an integral part of how all forms of government assistance are handed out ... want food stamps?  Go to class and get job training.
6) Increase taxes dramatically on any income over 10 million a year. 
7) Dramatic campaign finance reform that takes the advantage the wealthy have AWAY so that every voter's voice is equal.
8) Force all politicians, CEO's and Lobbyists to disclose, every quarter, every meeting, agreement and discussion topic they had in terms of influencing political votes or face teethy prosecution.
9) Give labor an equal number of seats on corporate boards the way Germany does it.
10) Create a teaching corps of nationwide navy seal quality teaching trainers to start spreading top performer best teaching practices to every school.

You call that a liberal manifesto?




That list is full of liberal (progressive) doctrine. Get a clue; wealth inequality, pro-labor union, anti-oil, pro-taxes, anti-corporation garbage is not something you hear conservatives saying.




LMAO ... you see what you want to see ... What liberal calls for LOWER corporate taxes?  How about a tax incentive to bring all that untaxed corporate money back to the US?  More accountability for those getting govt assistance?  Focus on teaching quality to break the death grip of teacher's unions that protect crummy teachers?

Oh yeah ... that's Liberal doctrine.

No wonder you call yourself burger brain.




In Norway they have low corporate tax rates, and you would call those people "liberal". Accountability? You said people on food stamps should be forced to "go to class" On who's dime?

"10) Create a teaching corps of nationwide navy seal quality teaching trainers to start spreading top performer best teaching practices to every school."

Now you're spending more tax money, and making the socialist school system larger. Somehow this will fix the "crummy teachers"

What a bunch of liberal crap.

Go ad-hominem somewhere else, liberal.



--------------------

Edited by burgerbrain (10/22/15 05:45 PM)

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22419510 - 10/22/15 06:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

>Additionally if Orca just said you're dumb.  That's not ad-hominem.  There's no argument attached.  It's just a statement of fact or opinion

Calling names is indeed an ad hominem and if he wanted to he could report it. Name calling is one of the lefts favorite ways to "debate" topics.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22419581 - 10/22/15 06:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:

I wonder if spying on us and arresting whistleblowers is what Obama meant when he said his administration would be transparent.

:obamafrown:





Why do people attempt to laugh at very serious situations? We're living in fucking Nazi Germany


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22419600 - 10/22/15 06:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Additionally if Orca just said you're dumb.  That's not ad-hominem.  There's no argument attached.  It's just a statement of fact or opinion

Calling names is indeed an ad hominem and if he wanted to he could report it. Name calling is one of the lefts favorite ways to "debate" topics.







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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22419601 - 10/22/15 06:42 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:

I wonder if spying on us and arresting whistleblowers is what Obama meant when he said his administration would be transparent.

:obamafrown:





Why do people attempt to laugh at very serious situations? We're living in fucking Nazi Germany




Lighten up bud ... this is a discussion board on a psychedelic mushrooms site. 

No one's changing the world here.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22419727 - 10/22/15 07:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:

I wonder if spying on us and arresting whistleblowers is what Obama meant when he said his administration would be transparent.

:obamafrown:





Why do people attempt to laugh at very serious situations? We're living in fucking Nazi Germany




Lighten up bud ... this is a discussion board on a psychedelic mushrooms site. 

No one's changing the world here.




It was just a question, don't get all upset.

Oh yeah, actually, we can change the world if we get the right ideas out.


--------------------

Edited by burgerbrain (10/22/15 08:00 PM)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22420660 - 10/22/15 10:16 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

First you would have to find the right ideas...


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22420665 - 10/22/15 10:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
First you would have to find the right ideas...





Hehe, nobody has proved me wrong yet


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22420687 - 10/22/15 10:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

on the contrary; your specious arguments tend to refute themselves. All it takes is a willingness to read and learn to know that most of what you have been spewing in here is garbage.  Notice that i said most. I have confidence that given enough time, you can improve that to maybe 50% hateful garbage, and from there, the sky's the limit.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22420692 - 10/22/15 10:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
on the contrary; your specious arguments tend to refute themselves. All it takes is a willingness to read and learn to know that most of what you have been spewing in here is garbage.  Notice that i said most. I have confidence that given enough time, you can improve that to maybe 50% hateful garbage, and from there, the sky's the limit.




Haha, more ad-hominem from someone whose ass I kick at debate.

Any examples, or just more attempted dumb insults from the defeated?


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22420711 - 10/22/15 10:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
on the contrary; your specious arguments tend to refute themselves. All it takes is a willingness to read and learn to know that most of what you have been spewing in here is garbage.  Notice that i said most. I have confidence that given enough time, you can improve that to maybe 50% hateful garbage, and from there, the sky's the limit.




Haha, more ad-hominem from someone whose ass I kick at debate.

Any examples, or just more attempted dumb insults from a defeated loser?






:carlinorgasm::lolsy::lmafo::rofl2::rockon::carlinorgasm::asianofapproval::tard::teehee::loldongs::burke::rofl2::lmafo:






I Formally Disagree.


--------------------
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FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Edited by Bigbadwooof (10/22/15 10:35 PM)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22420718 - 10/22/15 10:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
on the contrary; your specious arguments tend to refute themselves. All it takes is a willingness to read and learn to know that most of what you have been spewing in here is garbage.  Notice that i said most. I have confidence that given enough time, you can improve that to maybe 50% hateful garbage, and from there, the sky's the limit.




Haha, more ad-hominem from someone whose ass I kick at debate.

Any examples, or just more attempted dumb insults from a defeated loser?






:carlinorgasm::lolsy::lmafo::rofl2::rockon::carlinorgasm::asianofapproval::tard::teehee::loldongs::burke::rofl2::lmafo:




^Look another defeated whose ass I kick at debate


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22420786 - 10/22/15 10:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
on the contrary; your specious arguments tend to refute themselves. All it takes is a willingness to read and learn to know that most of what you have been spewing in here is garbage.  Notice that i said most. I have confidence that given enough time, you can improve that to maybe 50% hateful garbage, and from there, the sky's the limit.




Haha, more ad-hominem from someone whose ass I kick at debate.

Any examples, or just more attempted dumb insults from the defeated?






On the contrary; i think you are probably a good guy.  I've attacked your arguments, not you.  When i said that i have confidence in your ability to improve, i was being serious.  As for examples, all you have to do is re-read this thread or several others in which we have both participated.  Just because you pretend not to remember the many times i have refuted your arguments, doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Criticisms are not insults, but if you are looking for compliments i can oblige you somewhat.  Assuming that you are not trolling, you seem to be quite passionate about your beliefs.  I think that is a good first step.  But passion must be tempered by wisdom, which i don't think you have demonstrated, but i don't think it is outside of your grasp either.  Knowledge is not wisdom, but it can give you the perspective to make wisdom achievable. Therefore, i believe, that given enough time to contemplate and gain knowledge, you can become wise.
I look forward to seeing whether or not my hypothesis bears out in reality.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22420799 - 10/22/15 10:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
on the contrary; your specious arguments tend to refute themselves. All it takes is a willingness to read and learn to know that most of what you have been spewing in here is garbage.  Notice that i said most. I have confidence that given enough time, you can improve that to maybe 50% hateful garbage, and from there, the sky's the limit.




Haha, more ad-hominem from someone whose ass I kick at debate.

Any examples, or just more attempted dumb insults from the defeated?






On the contrary; i think you are probably a good guy.  I've attacked your arguments, not you.  When i said that i have confidence in your ability to improve, i was being serious.  As for examples, all you have to do is re-read this thread or several others in which we have both participated.  Just because you pretend not to remember the many times i have refuted your arguments, doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Criticisms are not insults, but if you are looking for compliments i can oblige you somewhat.  Assuming that you are not trolling, you seem to be quite passionate about your beliefs.  I think that is a good first step.  But passion must be tempered by wisdom, which i don't think you have demonstrated, but i don't think it is outside of your grasp either.  Knowledge is not wisdom, but it can give you the perspective to make wisdom achievable. Therefore, i believe, that given enough time to contemplate and gain knowledge, you can become wise.
I look forward to seeing whether or not my hypothesis bears out in reality.





Aaah so I can look at the examples of you losing in debate, and trust that I won each debate with you. I'm glad I can win each debate- you take on such easily beatable positions.

Yes I'm smarter than you, and more wise than you. You'll never be as smart as I am, and you'll never be as wise as I am.

Get a brain and get back to me.


--------------------

Edited by burgerbrain (10/22/15 11:00 PM)

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22420836 - 10/22/15 10:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Aaah so I can look at the examples of you losing in debate, and trust that I won each debate with you. I'm glad I can win each debate- you take on such easy positions to beat.

Yes I'm smarter than you, and more wise than you. You'll never be as smart as I am, and you'll never be as wise as I am.

Get a brain and get back to me.




lol! In what fucking universe dude? Please, give me one example of a time when you 'won a debate' with Balls. You are such a fucking megatroll it's unbelievable.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22420850 - 10/22/15 11:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Aaah so I can look at the examples of you losing in debate, and trust that I won each debate with you. I'm glad I can win each debate- you take on such easy positions to beat.

Yes I'm smarter than you, and more wise than you. You'll never be as smart as I am, and you'll never be as wise as I am.

Get a brain and get back to me.




lol! In what fucking universe dude? Please, give me one example of a time when you 'won a debate' with Balls. You are such a fucking megatroll it's unbelievable.





Here's an example, since you are unable to post anything productive.

ballsalsa said:
Quote:


do you remember?  As i recall, its was thoroughly shown that the USPS is a functioning social program that competes effectively with private competition.

How about the LADWP? were you in on that convo?  Again, much like the USPS, LADWP is profitable, while providing the same services as private competitors, and helping to fund the gov't.
As for the ACA, there is really nothing socialist about it.  It is corporate welfare for insurance companies, plain and simple.  The ACA is a perfect example of the thesis, antithesis, synthesis, scam that is perpetuated by the 2 party system.





U.S. Postal Service Records Second Quarter Loss of $1.9 Billion
Urges Congress to Pass Comprehensive Postal Legislation
WASHINGTON — The U.S. Postal Service ended the second quarter of its 2014 fiscal year (Jan. 1, 2014 – March 31, 2014) with a net loss of $1.9 billion. This marks the 20th of the last 22 quarters it has sustained a loss.
https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2014/pr14_031.htm


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22420884 - 10/22/15 11:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

we have discussed this ad nauseum. If you can't be bothered to look beyond the headline, and try to understand why the USPS is posting losses, then we have nothing further to talk about with regard to that topic.  If it makes you feel good to declare victory, go for it.  Or you could try debating with some intellectual integrity and honesty.  You might learn something.  I know i often do.  Maybe not though, since you're so much smarter than me.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22420896 - 10/22/15 11:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
we have discussed this ad nauseum. If you can't be bothered to look beyond the headline, and try to understand why the USPS is posting losses, then we have nothing further to talk about with regard to that topic.  If it makes you feel good to declare victory, go for it.  Or you could try debating with some intellectual integrity and honesty.  You might learn something.  I know i often do.  Maybe not though, since you're so much smarter than me.




Yes I am smarter than you and I proved it.

Only a dummy thinks that the USPS is quote "Again, much like the USPS, LADWP is profitable, while providing the same services as private competitors, and helping to fund the gov't."

I own you. The sooner you realize it the better.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22420945 - 10/22/15 11:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
we have discussed this ad nauseum. If you can't be bothered to look beyond the headline, and try to understand why the USPS is posting losses, then we have nothing further to talk about with regard to that topic.  If it makes you feel good to declare victory, go for it.  Or you could try debating with some intellectual integrity and honesty.  You might learn something.  I know i often do.  Maybe not though, since you're so much smarter than me.




Yes I am smarter than you and I proved it.

Only a dummy thinks that the USPS is quote "Again, much like the USPS, LADWP is profitable, while providing the same services as private competitors, and helping to fund the gov't."

I own you. The sooner you realize it the better.




:rolleyes:

My 14 year old is more enlightening/enlightened than you, sir.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22420956 - 10/22/15 11:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
we have discussed this ad nauseum. If you can't be bothered to look beyond the headline, and try to understand why the USPS is posting losses, then we have nothing further to talk about with regard to that topic.  If it makes you feel good to declare victory, go for it.  Or you could try debating with some intellectual integrity and honesty.  You might learn something.  I know i often do.  Maybe not though, since you're so much smarter than me.




Yes I am smarter than you and I proved it.

Only a dummy thinks that the USPS is quote "Again, much like the USPS, LADWP is profitable, while providing the same services as private competitors, and helping to fund the gov't."

I own you. The sooner you realize it the better.




:rolleyes:

My 14 year old is more enlightening/enlightened than you, sir.





Does your retarded 14 year old also think that the USPS is profitable?


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22420967 - 10/22/15 11:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Does your retarded 14 year old also think that the USPS is profitable?




Don't talk that way about her.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22420972 - 10/22/15 11:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Does your retarded 14 year old also think that the USPS is profitable?




Don't talk that way about her.




I asked you a question, you brought her up first.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22420976 - 10/22/15 11:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Does your retarded 14 year old also think that the USPS is profitable?




Don't talk that way about her.




I asked you a question, you brought her up first.




You better fucking drop this line, buddy.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22420982 - 10/22/15 11:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes#Philosophical_work
Quote:

To further demonstrate the limitations of these senses, Descartes proceeds with what is known as the Wax Argument. He considers a piece of wax; his senses inform him that it has certain characteristics, such as shape, texture, size, color, smell, and so forth. When he brings the wax towards a flame, these characteristics change completely. However, it seems that it is still the same thing: it is still the same piece of wax, even though the data of the senses inform him that all of its characteristics are different. Therefore, in order to properly grasp the nature of the wax, he should put aside the senses. He must use his mind. Descartes concludes:

    And so something that I thought I was seeing with my eyes is in fact grasped solely by the faculty of judgment which is in my mind.





Of course, Descartes was talking about the nature of perception, but i'm just using it to illuminate the need to look beyond the obvious. Rather than asking "what?" we need to be asking "why?"


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22420998 - 10/22/15 11:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes#Philosophical_work
Quote:

To further demonstrate the limitations of these senses, Descartes proceeds with what is known as the Wax Argument. He considers a piece of wax; his senses inform him that it has certain characteristics, such as shape, texture, size, color, smell, and so forth. When he brings the wax towards a flame, these characteristics change completely. However, it seems that it is still the same thing: it is still the same piece of wax, even though the data of the senses inform him that all of its characteristics are different. Therefore, in order to properly grasp the nature of the wax, he should put aside the senses. He must use his mind. Descartes concludes:

    And so something that I thought I was seeing with my eyes is in fact grasped solely by the faculty of judgment which is in my mind.





Of course, Descartes was talking about the nature of perception, but i'm just using it to illuminate the need to look beyond the obvious. Rather than asking "what?" we need to be asking "why?"





Heheh run Forrest, run


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22421004 - 10/22/15 11:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

well, you know what they say about horses and water.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22421021 - 10/22/15 11:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
well, you know what they say about horses and water.




You know what they say about cowards


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22421030 - 10/23/15 12:00 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

.

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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: saint leo jamaican]
    #22421114 - 10/23/15 12:30 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

saint leo jamaican said:
.




Cowards run away


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22421235 - 10/23/15 01:36 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

saint leo jamaican said:
.




Cowards run away




That is correct. Cowards run away from information and contemplation that might contradict their opinions.


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22422440 - 10/23/15 10:54 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

saint leo jamaican said:
.




Cowards run away




And the ignorant charge, with enthusiasm, into deeper and deeper fog.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Invisibleburgerbrain
Freedom Lover
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22424141 - 10/23/15 06:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

saint leo jamaican said:
.




Cowards run away




And the ignorant charge, with enthusiasm, into deeper and deeper fog.





Yeah liberals


--------------------

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Offlinehostileuniverse
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22424375 - 10/23/15 07:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

saint leo jamaican said:
.




Cowards run away




And the ignorant charge, with enthusiasm, into deeper and deeper fog.





Yeah liberals




Amazing, isn't it?


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com




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OfflineBigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,969
Last seen: 4 hours, 23 minutes
Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22424401 - 10/23/15 07:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Librawls are gurls and im a child


- conservative on this thread.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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