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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22391590 - 10/17/15 12:53 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: A perfect explanation, though I'm afraid it will be over his head. I guess we'll see...
See what I mean? I think I've earned the right to be an asshole now! I wrote that whole paragraph, afterall!
You're not arguing against me, you're arguing against Falcon's link.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
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Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22391848 - 10/17/15 04:04 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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burgerbrain said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: He went on to explain that it's simply harder to determine median wealth.
I explained above why median wealth is more relevant, and obviously Professor Davies agrees with me or he wouldn't have used median wealth.
Wrong again. In the link you provided:
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Professor Davies was kind enough to lay out the technical issues for me. First, of all, data for mean wealth is more reliable than median wealth.
It does mean that the average wealth is more relevant than median wealth.
I guess you can't read.
More reliable is not even close to the same as more relevant. If mean was more relevant, he'd have used the mean.
Again, he went on to say median was more difficult to determine, not that it's less relevant.
Are you not able to understand the difference? Even drunk liberals can.
You are correct, Super-Lib, median wealth (net worth) is the correct way to analyze this kind of a distribution. Average can give some information that's useful I would assume, since distribution of wealth in households is surely a normal (gaussian) type distribution. I believe the government uses median binned by quintile to analyze changes in net worth of households.
since the net worth of some households is negative, then you actually calculate the RMS value which gives the point at which about 68% of all households wealth would fall under--that is if you are interested in an 'average'
median requires you know every samples value (net wealth) so when you find the middle number, the distribution is divided into upper and lower halfs. A cumulative distribution function of wealth by household would be an interesting plot to see.
Now, here is the hard part. By itself, the median wealth really doesn't tell us anything useful. But if we analyze it over time for changes by group it becomes highly useful.
So if you look at wealth distribution between 2000 and 2015, you will see that there are lots of factors that play into 'wealth;
first, its a normal distribution. only a few people are going to have super big wealth. Or really super low.
And you can also see who made out--people ages 65~75, or bachelors or better, faired better and had a wealth increase in most cases.
going down in age, and socioeconomic class, people with little or no net worth, people with less than a bachelors, took it up the ass bigtime.
Why?
The key is the 65 to 75 group (retirees) who had some wealth saved. They did quite well, with a large increase overall in net wealth because they have a guaranteed income (retirement, SS) and saved money that invested properly, grows.
People with no savings had nothing to grow, and if they lost their jobs, their wealth really dropped.
here's the kicker. government can't just borrow and create money and make people have better wealth--when they go in debt, the value of money falls, so the lower income still lose out. 
the government can distort the system by high taxation, but then the distribution wouldn't be normal--say in the extreme if all money was evenly distributed among people. what would happen is eventually, the distribution would return to a normal (bell shaped) distribution and we would be in the same situation. and someone really good at stats can prove this by the central limit theorem.
Raising the minimum wage would slightly increase the wealth of some individuals IF it didn't cause people to lose jobs.
So, how to increase wealth>
improve your education get a better job save money.
That's really the only way. government programs distort the system and cause the dick to go deeper into the little guy.
I'll post those stats if I find them, I think it is by Gottlieb and smith. The analysis is my conclusion from looking at the data.
Interesting that the 65~75 age group made out like bandits. Just shows why the D's like to use the false rhetoric that 'republicans want to push granny over the cliff' Because the 65~75 retirees are 'getting theirs' and they don't want to be cast down to the heathens.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: starfire_xes]
#22392519 - 10/17/15 09:58 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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starfire_xes said: You are correct, Super-Lib, median wealth (net worth) is the correct way to analyze this kind of a distribution.
Thanks for stepping in, fellow engineer. It's really a question of mathematics, not politics, unless you start with the conclusion you want and work your way backwards to see which methodology gets you there.
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starfire_xes said: By itself, the median wealth really doesn't tell us anything useful. But if we analyze it over time for changes by group it becomes highly useful.
While I agree changes over time are highly relevant, I also think median on it's own is very relevant too. Median tells us exactly how the guy in the middle is doing. I'm not too interested in how the top 400 is doing, or even the bottom one million for that matter. I'd like to know how a population is doing as a whole, and the guy in the middle is a reasonable indicator. Or perhaps the mathematical mode is also a good indicator. (One estimate says the mode is only 40% of the median.
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starfire_xes said: government can't just borrow and create money and make people have better wealth--when they go in debt, the value of money falls, so the lower income still lose out. 
I agree, and that's why I support ending the social security cap, which currently allows people making over $117,000 to pay less than the 6.2% everyone else has to pay. No borrowing required. And for those who call me 'jealous', I'm no longer paying into social security this year, so I'd be one of the folks paying for this. But it's worth it to me to save social security for everyone else - I come from a humble background and have a lot of less fortunate friends.
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starfire_xes said: Raising the minimum wage would slightly increase the wealth of some individuals IF it didn't cause people to lose jobs.
Empirical evidence has been posted many times saying it has a negligible effect on jobs in the short term, and a positive effect on jobs in the long term, because so many people would have so much more money to spend, and that's good for the economy. I haven't seen empirical evidence to the contrary.
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starfire_xes said: government programs distort the system and cause the dick to go deeper into the little guy.
I have no idea what your math is behind this conclusion. You can increase wealth for the middle class by increasing minimum wage, by using a progressive tax system, by ensuring unions have a voice in business, etc.
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starfire_xes said: I'll post those stats if I find them, I think it is by Gottlieb and smith. The analysis is my conclusion from looking at the data.
Interesting that the 65~75 age group made out like bandits. Just shows why the D's like to use the false rhetoric that 'republicans want to push granny over the cliff' Because the 65~75 retirees are 'getting theirs' and they don't want to be cast down to the heathens. 
Seniors and grannys include 55 year olds. And yes, republicans want to take away from people in that age group.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/17/15 12:04 PM)
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Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#22393330 - 10/17/15 01:41 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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>I love how the left makes shit up about what the right is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03 fixed
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
#22393819 - 10/17/15 03:23 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Please explain. Thanks.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22394626 - 10/17/15 06:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
#22394702 - 10/17/15 06:35 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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burgerbrain said:

There you go! He's gonna fill it up!!!
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22394830 - 10/17/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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lol! That's right!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain] 1
#22394882 - 10/17/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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burgerbrain said:

Im pretty sure thats a Burberry wallet, so its okay if the liberal socialists empty that bitch out...
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Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse] 1
#22394904 - 10/17/15 07:21 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Bernie will make all wallets look like that.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
#22395182 - 10/17/15 08:17 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cool! I want a Burberry wallet!
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#22395198 - 10/17/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Cool! I want a Burberry wallet!
keep wanting, you'll never afford one under BS...
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22395247 - 10/17/15 08:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why do you think that? Everyone but the super rich would have more money, and of course the super rich could afford it. If you knew anything about Bernie (which you don't seem to), you'd know that he's about raising the standard for the poor and middle class, unlike everyone else who wants to raise it for the rich.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
Last seen: 22 minutes, 13 seconds
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22395646 - 10/17/15 10:09 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Why do you think that? Everyone but the super rich would have more money, and of course the super rich could afford it. If you knew anything about Bernie (which you don't seem to), you'd know that he's about raising the standard for the poor and middle class, unlike everyone else who wants to raise it for the rich. 
My kid's teacher was talking about Donald Trump in class today... He said, 'don't worry, Trump's going to fix everything!' lmao! This is why we have the worst education in the country.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22410930 - 10/20/15 07:50 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Why do you think that? Everyone but the super rich would have more money, and of course the super rich could afford it. If you knew anything about Bernie (which you don't seem to), you'd know that he's about raising the standard for the poor and middle class, unlike everyone else who wants to raise it for the rich. 
My kid's teacher was talking about Donald Trump in class today... He said, 'don't worry, Trump's going to fix everything!' lmao! This is why we have the worst education in the country.
Actually that teacher is probably the best teacher at your kid's school. Usually teachers vote democrap.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,337
Last seen: 22 minutes, 13 seconds
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
#22411636 - 10/20/15 10:41 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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burgerbrain said:
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Bigbadwooof said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Why do you think that? Everyone but the super rich would have more money, and of course the super rich could afford it. If you knew anything about Bernie (which you don't seem to), you'd know that he's about raising the standard for the poor and middle class, unlike everyone else who wants to raise it for the rich. 
My kid's teacher was talking about Donald Trump in class today... He said, 'don't worry, Trump's going to fix everything!' lmao! This is why we have the worst education in the country.
Actually that teacher is probably the best teacher at your kid's school. Usually teachers vote democrap.
That's because they're not uneducated willful fucking idiots.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22411783 - 10/20/15 11:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
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burgerbrain said:
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Bigbadwooof said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Why do you think that? Everyone but the super rich would have more money, and of course the super rich could afford it. If you knew anything about Bernie (which you don't seem to), you'd know that he's about raising the standard for the poor and middle class, unlike everyone else who wants to raise it for the rich. 
My kid's teacher was talking about Donald Trump in class today... He said, 'don't worry, Trump's going to fix everything!' lmao! This is why we have the worst education in the country.
Actually that teacher is probably the best teacher at your kid's school. Usually teachers vote democrap.
That's because they're not uneducated willful fucking idiots.
Hehe, what has voting democrap done for you? An Obamaphone?
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
#22412287 - 10/21/15 05:03 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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burgerbrain said:
Hehe, what has voting democrap done for you? An Obamaphone?
And what exactly has voting GOP gotten you? How is your world different as a result of your voting history?
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22412359 - 10/21/15 06:28 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said:
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burgerbrain said:
Hehe, what has voting democrap done for you? An Obamaphone?
And what exactly has voting GOP gotten you? How is your world different as a result of your voting history?
At this point I'd say it comes down to voting for whoever plans to do the LEAST damage to our economy and the middle class, clearly that choice is GOP
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22412377 - 10/21/15 06:40 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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hostileuniverse said:
At this point I'd say it comes down to voting for whoever plans to do the LEAST damage to our economy and the middle class, clearly that choice is GOP
In my lifetime, no administration did more damage to the country and our economy than GWB. The 08/09 economic train wreck stands alone as the most severe shock I've seen. Add to that 9/11, the Patriot Act and the Iraq invasion and his administration stands at the absolute pinnacle of total an complete incompetence. No one else even comes close.
Sure, you'll blame it all on Obama, no doubt ... that the recovery has been slow ... his fault ... he racked up the debt and so on. I find Obama to be an average Corporate President that surrounded himself with the usual economic characters that push more debt, more globalism and more corporate control.
McCain/Palin would have been a complete and total disaster, however and chances are we'd be in at least 2 more major ground wars if he had won. Trump would likely be even worse than McCain or GWB, if that's even conceivable with his go it alone, I know better than everyone else, all the Congress is stupid approach. He would be totally isolated with few allies. Hillary would be almost as bad ... maybe even worse because she's probably be impeached within a year or two.
No good choices out there right now.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
Edited by KauaiOrca (10/21/15 06:51 AM)
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