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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22520742 - 11/13/15 11:47 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

:lolsy:

THis thread is hilarious....  :popcorn:


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22529168 - 11/15/15 07:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
:lolsy:

THis thread is hilarious....  :popcorn:




It's a good one


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22539353 - 11/17/15 08:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism and Socialism: Crash Course World History #33



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Edited by burgerbrain (11/17/15 08:55 PM)

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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22541344 - 11/18/15 10:48 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Take your ad-hominem elsewhere




says the poster with the fetish for false dilemmas.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: millzy]
    #22543254 - 11/18/15 06:41 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:

Take your ad-hominem elsewhere




says the poster with the fetish for false dilemmas.




Oh yeah, more ad-hominem eh? How is ad-hominem related to a false dilemma? Where did I propose a false dilemma?

Libs are too easy


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22543441 - 11/18/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

this:

Quote:

Poverty? Government stooges will fix it.
Corrupt government? Government stooges will fix it.
Income inequality? Government stooges will fix it.
Geopolitics? Government stooges will fix it.
Racism? Government stooges will fix it.




is a false dilemma.

the underlying assumption seems to be that private organizations are the better alternative to government. but the even more pernicious underlying assumption is that the only choice is between either government or private organizations. false dilemmas revolve around the presentation of two bad options while omitting a third alternative. what's the third alternative in this instance you ask? i'll give you a hint: we live there.


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Edited by millzy (11/18/15 07:24 PM)

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: millzy]
    #22543529 - 11/18/15 07:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
this:

Quote:

Poverty? Government stooges will fix it.
Corrupt government? Government stooges will fix it.
Income inequality? Government stooges will fix it.
Geopolitics? Government stooges will fix it.
Racism? Government stooges will fix it.




is a false dilemma.

the underlying assumption seems to be that private organizations are the better alternative to government. but the even more pernicious underlying assumption is that the only choice is between either government or private organizations. false dilemmas revolve around the presentation of two bad options while omitting a third alternative. what's the third alternative in this instance you ask? i'll give you a hint: we live there.




"Government vs Private" is not a false dilemma-It's a reality. It's two opposite ends of the political spectrum.

We can have Government sponsored Private enterprise like we have now in the US but it doesn't remove the problem that Government opposes Private enterprise because Gov can only sponsor a select few (using private, taxpayer money-the government doesn't have ANY money that it doesn't steal from the Private sector), and that hurts other private enterprise (namely the little guy who can't buy government) who can't get government sponsorship.

So you're saying you prefer this FALSE "3rd option", like what we have now? Corporations teamed up with government to fuck the little guy.

Can you give us a few examples of where government does better than private organizations? No, welfare doesn't count.

PS. This thread is a response to another thread named:
Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness
where this liberal said the exact same shit-just from a liberals' perspective

Edited by burgerbrain (11/18/15 07:48 PM)

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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22543695 - 11/18/15 07:55 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

the third alternative would be a society where both government and private interests work in harmony to serve everyone, as you've said. i don't think that's what we have now, but what we have now is much closer to either of those options you're presenting.

it's also a strawman to say that "liberals" are totalitarian.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: millzy]
    #22543774 - 11/18/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
the third alternative would be a society where both government and private interests work in harmony to serve everyone, as you've said. i don't think that's what we have now, but what we have now is much closer to either of those options you're presenting.

it's also a strawman to say that "liberals" are totalitarian.




But government and corporations are making things more difficult for people. I'm not sure how you plan to go this route when obviously whatever you intend the government to be, will corrupt. Are you saying it won't corrupt? Heheh. They're thieves, stealing from PEOPLE like you and me, and you're saying that it will never be corrupted?


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22543826 - 11/18/15 08:11 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

i agree that things are fucked up. i don't know what's so unreasonable about proposing that we fix things.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: millzy]
    #22543897 - 11/18/15 08:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
i agree that things are fucked up. i don't know what's so unreasonable about proposing that we fix things.




We need to start controlling our shitty moron scumbucket lawyer government.

Let's start with more Amendments to the Constitution that look similar to the 1st - 10th.

I'll begin:

28th Amendment "The government shall not spend more than it takes in, yearly budget shall not exceed the tax revenue. State and Federal government Tax revenue limited to 10% of Gross Domestic Product, no matter the GDP levels. The government cannot borrow on behalf of its citizens"

29th "No personal activity shall be banned unless the activity can be proved, beyond a reasonable doubt, to provide harm to other citizens. Each citizen is allowed to own their mind, soul, and body and cannot go to jail, or be persecuted for a 'victimless crime' "


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Edited by burgerbrain (11/18/15 08:28 PM)

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22544251 - 11/18/15 09:43 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

oh burgerbrains, you say that you love the constitution, yet here you are promoting an amendment to gut it.

I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but taxes are not theft, the federal government does have the power to levy taxes, borrow money, and congress can ban any activity it wants if it relates to interstate or foreign commerce.  Thats the way the cookie crumbles i guess. At least until you can get those amendments passed


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22544389 - 11/18/15 10:12 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
oh burgerbrains, you say that you love the constitution, yet here you are promoting an amendment to gut it.

I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but taxes are not theft, the federal government does have the power to levy taxes, borrow money, and congress can ban any activity it wants if it relates to interstate or foreign commerce.  Thats the way the cookie crumbles i guess. At least until you can get those amendments passed




"Taxes are not theft" That's your opinion.. an ill-informed opinion but still an opinion.

There are problems with the Constitution, is that your point? That's why I said "Amendments to the Constitution that look similar to the 1st - 10th." - I specified pro-freedom, pro-individualism Amendments, and yes there are others besides the 1st through 10th.

I guess you didn't want to contribute any Amendments due to your full faith in our government system and leaders. Maybe one day these Amendments will be passed-won't be with your help it seems.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22544533 - 11/18/15 10:44 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"Taxes are not theft" That's your opinion.. an ill-informed opinion but still an opinion.






Taxes are not theft.  That's a fact Jack.  By definition.
all definitions courtesy of http://www.merriam-webster.com/
Quote:



tax

transitive verb \ˈtaks\

: to require (someone) to pay a tax

: to require someone to pay a tax on (something)

: to require a lot from (something or someone) : to put demands on (something or someone)

Full Definition of TAX
1
:  to assess or determine judicially the amount of (costs in a court action)
2
:  to levy a tax on
3
obsolete :  to enter (a name) in a list <there went out a decree…that all the world should be taxed — Luke 2:1(Authorized Version)>
4
:  charge, accuse <taxed him with neglect of duty>; also :  censure
5
:  to make onerous and rigorous demands on <the job taxed her strength>
— tax·able
\ˈtak-sə-bəl\ adjective
— tax·er noun

   
noun, often attributive

: an amount of money that a government requires people to pay according to their income, the value of their property, etc., and that is used to pay for the things done by the government
Full Definition of TAX
1
a :  a charge usually of money imposed by authority on persons or property for public purposes
b :  a sum levied on members of an organization to defray expenses
2
:  a heavy demand

transitive verb \ˈtaks\

: to require (someone) to pay a tax

: to require someone to pay a tax on (something)

: to require a lot from (something or someone) : to put demands on (something or someone)
Full Definition of TAX
1
:  to assess or determine judicially the amount of (costs in a court action)
2
:  to levy a tax on
3
obsolete :  to enter (a name) in a list <there went out a decree…that all the world should be taxed — Luke 2:1(Authorized Version)>
4
:  charge, accuse <taxed him with neglect of duty>; also :  censure
5
:  to make onerous and rigorous demands on <the job taxed her strength>





Quote:

levy
verb

: to use legal authority to demand and collect (a fine, a tax, etc.)
lev·ied levy·ing
Full Definition of LEVY
transitive verb
1
a :  to impose or collect by legal authority <levy a tax>
b :  to require by authority
2
:  to enlist or conscript for military service
3
:  to carry on (war) :  wage
intransitive verb
:  to seize property




Now, compare and contrast

Quote:



noun \ˈtheft\

: the act or crime of stealing

Full Definition of THEFT
1
a :  the act of stealing; specifically :  the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it
b :  an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property
2
obsolete :  something stolen
3
:  a stolen base in baseball






Quote:

: Steal
to take (something that does not belong to you) in a way that is wrong or illegal

: to take (something that you are not supposed to have) without asking for permission

: to wrongly take and use (another person's idea, words, etc.

Full Definition of STEAL
intransitive verb
1
:  to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as a habitual or regular practice
2
:  to come or go secretly, unobtrusively, gradually, or unexpectedly
3
:  to steal or attempt to steal a base
transitive verb
1
a :  to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully <stole a car>
b :  to take away by force or unjust means <they've stolen our liberty>
c :  to take surreptitiously or without permission <steal a kiss>
d :  to appropriate to oneself or beyond one's proper share :  make oneself the focus of <steal the show>
2
a :  to move, convey, or introduce secretly :  smuggle
b :  to accomplish in a concealed or unobserved manner <steal a visit>
3
a :  to seize, gain, or win by trickery, skill, or daring <a basketball player adept at stealing the ball> <stole the election>
b of a base runner :  to reach (a base) safely solely by running and usually catching the opposing team off guard




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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22544662 - 11/18/15 11:17 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

You kind of have a point balls: Taxation is a FORM of theft. As we can see here:

Quote:


noun \ˈtheft\

: the act or crime of stealing

Full Definition of THEFT
1
a :  the act of stealing; specifically :  the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it





When the government comes along and takes my income (personal property), this is theft. Are you saying that I'm not the rightful owner of the income (personal property) I earn through labor?

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22544785 - 11/18/15 11:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

i'm saying that it isn't felonious for the government to levy a tax against you


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22544800 - 11/18/15 11:53 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
i'm saying that it isn't felonious for the government to levy a tax against you




LOL because the word felonious implies the law, which is controlled by the government. Fucking circle logic. So, according to your logic; the government can take whatever they want from me as long as they call it a "tax" good logic there, liberal


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22545506 - 11/19/15 07:40 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
i'm saying that it isn't felonious for the government to levy a tax against you




LOL because the word felonious implies the law, which is controlled by the government. Fucking circle logic. So, according to your logic; the government can take whatever they want from me as long as they call it a "tax" good logic there, liberal




The govt reminds me of Palpatine in Episode I, the goofy guy asks "is that legal?" Palpatine responds "I will make it legal"

This is what govt does, anything they want to do, even if it's illegal, they just write and enact a law, and MAKE it legal... Even stealing...


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Offlinepsilynut
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22545577 - 11/19/15 08:14 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LOL because the word felonious implies the law, which is controlled by the government. Fucking circle logic. So, according to your logic; the government can take whatever they want from me as long as they call it a "tax" good logic there, liberal



 
That's true , it's how we won ww2 . Superhigh taxes .  Govt controlled everything .  Your 28th amendment would lead to geting our asses kicked in another major war . 
  What kind of national security would a govt with no power or money provide for us?

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: psilynut]
    #22545663 - 11/19/15 08:38 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:

LOL because the word felonious implies the law, which is controlled by the government. Fucking circle logic. So, according to your logic; the government can take whatever they want from me as long as they call it a "tax" good logic there, liberal



 
That's true , it's how we won ww2 . Superhigh taxes .  Govt controlled everything .  Your 28th amendment would lead to geting our asses kicked in another major war . 
  What kind of national security would a govt with no power or money provide for us?




It's how we won a lot of wars, but after the war, the high taxation should go away, agree?


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