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hostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
#22481673 - 11/05/15 03:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: Sure have. did you have a point?
You're being purposeful obtuse, aren't you?
I certainly hope so because Nobody can be that dumb, except maybe Bernie supporters...
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22481713 - 11/05/15 04:10 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-socialist-programs-and-social-programs
Quote:
Michael McIntyre, Associate Professor and Chair, Department of International Studies, DePaul Un... 472 Views I think that the term "social programs" is etymologically related to the nineteenth-century "social question," that is, the question of what to do with or about a new class, urban wage-laborers working, often, in large factories (large, that is, compared to what was known before the industrial revolution), a class that was alternately (or simultaneously) perceived as pitiable and threatening. Dickens's The Adventures of Oliver Twist is perhaps the archetypal novel of the social question.
Responses to the social question could range from harshly repressive (the Poor Laws) to integrative (Bismackian social provision). "Social programs" can refer, then, to all kinds of programs on the integrative end of spectrum. That in Germany they were inaugurated under Bismarck indicates that conservative politicians can sponsor social programs, so social programs are not per se "socialist". On the other hand, there certainly is a long history of socialist parties promoting the extension of social provision. Think, for example, of the 1945 Labour government under Clement Attlee and its creation of the modern British welfare state, most notably the NHS. The NHS, once established, though, became the property of all British governments, Conservative or Labour, and none of them have dared to try to kill it outright (although Cameron may be trying to do so indirectly).
And this, of course, brings us to Obamacare and its putative role as the advance guard of a socialist agenda. Certainly, Obamacare would rank as a social program. But is it a socialist program? Surely not. By now its pedigree is well-known: it closely resembles the program once proposed by the Heritage Foundation, the 1990s Republican alternative to the Clinton health care program, and Romneycare in Massachusetts. Socialist? Oh, hell no! For that matter, is Medicare socialist? It is, after all, basically a single-payer program for everyone over 65 (though with supplemental private insurance and, since the Bush years, a nose under the tent for private insurers). Single-payer advocates in the US refer to their proposal as "Medicare for all". Surely Medicare is far more "socialist" than Obamacare? But is Medicare socialist? Really? Because no one in the US, even the people who are really trying to strangle Medicare quietly in the night (Paul Ryan et al.), dare oppose it outright. Medicare in the US is like the NHS in Britain. Everyone claims it.
This suggests that while "socialist" parties advocate the extension of social provision, "social programs" alone are not "socialist" independent of their political context. That context, as Joshua Engel and Judith Meyer suggest, relies on a history of both mass-based socialist parties and the post-1917 division of those parties into social-democratic and communist wings. Social-democratic parties have by and large given up on the fight for collective ownership of the forces of production. The last serious attempt by a social-democratic party to achieve this end was the failed Maidner Plan of Sweden's Social Democratic Party in the 1970s-80s, or perhaps the widespread (and later reversed) nationalizations in the first years of the Mitterand presidency in France. By now, social-democratic parties don't even bother to pay this goal lip service. The Labour Party's repudiation of Clause IV in the late 1990s may be taken as emblematic of this retreat. So, if social programs were ever "socialist" in virtue of their promotion by parties that had a socialist agenda, that day is now long gone. Since the United States never had a mass socialist party (Eugene Debs, in his best year, got something like 6% of the vote), the claim that any social program in the United States is "socialist" is a laughable fantasy.
*bold, and underline added by me for emphasis
does that answer your question?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22481905 - 11/05/15 04:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Look who the dumb one is...
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22481957 - 11/05/15 04:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Look who the dumb one is... 
Falcon is looking in the mirror again!
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
#22519929 - 11/13/15 08:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
burgerbrain said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Look who the dumb one is... 
Falcon is looking in the mirror again!

Fucking owned
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
#22519956 - 11/13/15 08:43 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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yeah smart guy, keep patting yourself on the back. its hilarious
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
#22519998 - 11/13/15 08:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: yeah smart guy, keep patting yourself on the back. its hilarious
Hehe, smarter than you. What's hilarious is liberals and their ad-hominem
Edited by burgerbrain (11/13/15 09:15 PM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
#22520026 - 11/13/15 09:03 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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yep, you're so smart that the brilliance of your posts is actually blinding. in fact, you're so smart, that you should just start posting in the pub so more people can have the benefit of your wisdom.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
#22520077 - 11/13/15 09:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: yep, you're so smart that the brilliance of your posts is actually blinding. in fact, you're so smart, that you should just start posting in the pub so more people can have the benefit of your wisdom.
lol, what? the pub? I don't get it...
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
#22520097 - 11/13/15 09:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
burgerbrain said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: yeah smart guy, keep patting yourself on the back. its hilarious
Hehe, smarter than you. What's hilarious is liberals and their ad-hominem
Quote:
ballsalsa said: yep, you're so smart that the brilliance of your posts is actually blinding.
Hehe, thanks for admitting that I'm smarter than you.
Edited by burgerbrain (11/13/15 09:32 PM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22520288 - 11/13/15 09:53 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: yep, you're so smart that the brilliance of your posts is actually blinding. in fact, you're so smart, that you should just start posting in the pub so more people can have the benefit of your wisdom.
lol, what? the pub? I don't get it...
thats because you aren't super smart like burgerbrains
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
#22520389 - 11/13/15 10:04 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: yep, you're so smart that the brilliance of your posts is actually blinding. in fact, you're so smart, that you should just start posting in the pub so more people can have the benefit of your wisdom.
lol, what? the pub? I don't get it...
thats because you aren't super smart like burgerbrains
hu is smarter than you, obviously.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
#22520439 - 11/13/15 10:14 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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obviously.
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
#22520452 - 11/13/15 10:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: obviously.
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
#22520510 - 11/13/15 10:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: obviously.
Try to answer the questions next time, lib.
PS.
Thanks for admitting that most conservatives are smarter than you.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22520620 - 11/13/15 11:03 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: obviously.

BTW, what happened to you in the GMO labeling debate? i noticed that you disappeared when the discussion turned technical
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
#22520625 - 11/13/15 11:04 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
burgerbrain said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: obviously.
Try to answer the questions next time, lib.
PS.
Thanks for admitting that most conservatives are smarter than you.
you probably just outsmarted me into that admission, so no thanks necessary.
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
#22520631 - 11/13/15 11:05 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
burgerbrain said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: obviously.
Try to answer the questions next time, lib.
PS.
Thanks for admitting that most conservatives are smarter than you.
you probably just outsmarted me into that admission, so no thanks necessary.
I'm glad you are starting to see your liberal ways. Do you now regret voting for Obowelmovement?
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
#22520638 - 11/13/15 11:08 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: obviously.

BTW, what happened to you in the GMO labeling debate? i noticed that you disappeared when the discussion turned technical
lol, what? you mean when the debate turned idiotic? I don't see any reason to waste my time reading mindless drivel, dissecting it, pointing out its many flaws, my point then, as it still is, is non GMO food is labeled as such, no need to add to it, the difference in labeling is just a shell game, when there is actual scientific evidence, I'll indulge it, until then, its all knee-jerk reaction, like most liberal ideology...
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22520658 - 11/13/15 11:13 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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