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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22354121 - 10/09/15 10:35 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>We can look at cable providers for an example of this.  There's very little government interference but it's just too expensive to lay new cable lines to compete in the market.

Ever heard of satellite? How about direct streaming over the net?




The speeds are shit and the prices high.  They don't compete with cable providers.  They provide service in the boonies where there's no other option.

*edit*  And I was referring to cable internet providers.  Cable TV is a luxury and I don't give a shit if someone monopolizes something I don't fucking need to function in modern society.

Quote:

>Another prime example is the hedge fund manager that jacked the price of a med up 5000% after buying the factory that produces it.  This is the generic form of the drug, there's just no competition in the market.

Now competitors have a motive to compete, they can make a lot of money at that price and the price will come down.




Compete and get into a price war over a medicine that has a very inflexible demand curve.  Good luck with that.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


Edited by paperbackwriter (10/09/15 10:37 AM)


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22354141 - 10/09/15 10:41 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

That's bullshit.  There's countries with higher GDP than us that have less income inequality.




So what does motivate people to get a better job or move up in a company?


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22354147 - 10/09/15 10:42 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Income inequality is a GOOD thing, it motivates people...




It's actually not a good thing for the overall economy, case in the point is the US and its very slow rate of growth the past 10 years.

If the economic opportunities are present, then the inequality can be a very motivating factor (after WW2)!!  That's not the case today, the only things the massive inequality creates is frustration and anger.

The problem with today is the very rich haven't suffered at all in this economic downturn, even during the Great Depression the rich got burned big time, today it's only been the bottom 70%.

There's a reason why the inequality is so massive today and it has nothing to with motivation or talent, it's called financial games at the top.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354166 - 10/09/15 10:48 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

>The speeds are shit and the prices high.  They don't compete with cable providers.  They provide service in the boonies where there's no other option.

Oh really? You should get out more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_Internet_access

Satellite Internet access is Internet access provided through communications satellites. Modern satellite Internet service is typically provided to users through geostationary satellites that can offer high data speeds,[2] with newer satellites using Ka band to achieve downstream data speeds up to 50 Mbps.[3]


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22354168 - 10/09/15 10:49 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

That's bullshit.  There's countries with higher GDP than us that have less income inequality.




So what does motivate people to get a better job or move up in a company?




Change.  Desire to learn something new.  Desire to have more responsibility.

And I'm not talking about zero income inequality.  I don't believe any country has that.  But the conversation was about income inequality in the U.S. and how to fix it without government intervention.

I think qman did a great job outlining the issue and I have nothing more to add.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22354180 - 10/09/15 10:55 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>The speeds are shit and the prices high.  They don't compete with cable providers.  They provide service in the boonies where there's no other option.

Oh really? You should get out more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_Internet_access

Satellite Internet access is Internet access provided through communications satellites. Modern satellite Internet service is typically provided to users through geostationary satellites that can offer high data speeds,[2] with newer satellites using Ka band to achieve downstream data speeds up to 50 Mbps.[3]




I can get double that here for $70 a month.

For satellite services 15 mbps starts at $130.  I can't find these 50mbps packages but I don't see how they can possibly be competitive with that big of a price gap.

It also looks like the latency issue hasn't been fixed (and probably won't be, takes time to send shit to space and back).  Good luck gaming or streaming with satellite.

I used to do tech support for a satellite internet provider, you're really barking up the wrong tree Stoney.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22354234 - 10/09/15 11:09 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

There is also cellular internet with reasonably priced data plans. Many states or municipalities have laws mandating cable and phone companies to share their poles at a reasonable cost. Latency to a geostationary satellite is not going to be an issue. A couple thousand mile round trip at the speed of light is not long.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Posts: 1,888
Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22354254 - 10/09/15 11:14 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
There is also cellular internet with reasonably priced data plans. Many states or municipalities have laws mandating cable and phone companies to share their poles at a reasonable cost. Latency to a geostationary satellite is not going to be an issue. A couple thousand mile round trip at the speed of light is not long.




Latency is an issue, especially for gaming, and the latency I saw in an article posted on February of this year shows it's still much higher than cable.  This was a common complaint we got when I worked in the industry.

Also the topic of discussion is government intervention.  Bringing up states and municipalities forcing companies to share their property is kinda proving my point about monopolies (which burgerbrain refuses to discuss).


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22354520 - 10/09/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Well lets see, the speed of light being 186k mps and the distance being lets say 2k miles round trip we have 2/186 or about 11 milliseconds of lag. If the satellite was within 500 miles then you could cut that in half.

No one said states and counties had to give up their property, they simply have to allow access at reasonable rates because they are using the public domain and public property in the first place.

We need a tiny bit of socialism but not the whole tamale. We certainly do not need communism in govt.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Posts: 1,888
Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22354561 - 10/09/15 12:54 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Well lets see, the speed of light being 186k mps and the distance being lets say 2k miles round trip we have 2/186 or about 11 milliseconds of lag. If the satellite was within 500 miles then you could cut that in half.

No one said states and counties had to give up their property, they simply have to allow access at reasonable rates because they are using the public domain and public property in the first place.

We need a tiny bit of socialism but not the whole tamale. We certainly do not need communism in govt.




You're forgetting rely time.  The time it takes for the satellite to route your packets and send it back to earth.  There's also all the earth based rely time.

800-2000ms ping was what the article I read mentioned which sounds a hell of a lot better than it was ten years ago when I was in the industry.  Two seconds is still an eternity of lag when playing games on the internet.

Point is, it's not competitive.  It's a great option for people that can't get cable internet but it doesn't compete, in either performance or price, with cable based ISPs.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22356477 - 10/09/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Well lets see, the speed of light being 186k mps and the distance being lets say 2k miles round trip we have 2/186 or about 11 milliseconds of lag. If the satellite was within 500 miles then you could cut that in half.

No one said states and counties had to give up their property, they simply have to allow access at reasonable rates because they are using the public domain and public property in the first place.

We need a tiny bit of socialism but not the whole tamale. We certainly do not need communism in govt.




You're forgetting rely time.  The time it takes for the satellite to route your packets and send it back to earth.  There's also all the earth based rely time.

800-2000ms ping was what the article I read mentioned which sounds a hell of a lot better than it was ten years ago when I was in the industry.  Two seconds is still an eternity of lag when playing games on the internet.

Point is, it's not competitive.  It's a great option for people that can't get cable internet but it doesn't compete, in either performance or price, with cable based ISPs.





Hardly anyone actually "needs" that extra speed. In the internet market there is plenty of competition, but wait until the FCC/Gov is done with it.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22357340 - 10/10/15 01:03 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Lets look at how unaffordable it is for new companies to lay fiber and compete in the market.  Now, would one of the main reasons for that be the maze of beaurocratic regulations and fees and studies and other forms of government interference in the market?  Yes.

or how about the high cost of homes in California?  Does it have something to do with the ~$45,000 per new home cost that california government regulations add to the price?

Another variant of this is 'the closing' at a home sale.  THis is basically a feeding frenzy for a plethora of individuals from various sectors of the economy and government who come to dip their beaks on the money from a home sale generated by government mandated requirements, fees, and licenses.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22357418 - 10/10/15 01:37 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Lets look at how unaffordable it is for new companies to lay fiber and compete in the market.  Now, would one of the main reasons for that be the maze of beaurocratic regulations and fees and studies and other forms of government interference in the market?  Yes.

or how about the high cost of homes in California?  Does it have something to do with the ~$45,000 per new home cost that california government regulations add to the price?

Another variant of this is 'the closing' at a home sale.  THis is basically a feeding frenzy for a plethora of individuals from various sectors of the economy and government who come to dip their beaks on the money from a home sale generated by government mandated requirements, fees, and licenses.




I couldn't have said it better.

Of course these socialist scum never mention the added cost of gov' meddling-they don't discuss those things (IE. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/12/hey-barney-frank-the-government-did-cause-the-housing-crisis/249903/). It's disgusting the way these collectivists think-they've never even heard of the inflation tax. Poor morons are becoming/are currently slaves and don't even know it.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22357836 - 10/10/15 07:04 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Lets look at how unaffordable it is for new companies to lay fiber and compete in the market.  Now, would one of the main reasons for that be the maze of beaurocratic regulations and fees and studies and other forms of government interference in the market?  Yes.




It's also a fact that your return on investment is higher when you corner a market.  Laying fibre optic lines costs money.  When you already have competition going in your incentive is less.

Maybe bureaucracy is one reason.  But it's not the fucking main reason.

Nice try though.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22358226 - 10/10/15 09:38 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Lets look at how unaffordable it is for new companies to lay fiber and compete in the market.  Now, would one of the main reasons for that be the maze of beaurocratic regulations and fees and studies and other forms of government interference in the market?  Yes.




It's also a fact that your return on investment is higher when you corner a market.  Laying fibre optic lines costs money.  When you already have competition going in your incentive is less.

Maybe bureaucracy is one reason.  But it's not the fucking main reason.

Nice try though.





I guess it would be easy for you to come up with other reasons then, but you didn't. Unfortunate.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22358648 - 10/10/15 11:10 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I did give other reasons.  The incentive for entering a market with no competition is higher than one with established competition.  If the start up costs is high the incentive has to be worth it or it's a bad investment.

The start up cost can be related to government interference but in this case it's hardly the main cost.  Laying fiber optics cable is.

Here's an explanation.

https://www.quora.com/Does-Comcasts-near-monopoly-stem-ultimately-from-government-regulations-and-or-subsidies

And some examples of the cost.

http://blog.performantnetworks.com/2012/11/how-much-does-rural-fiber-really-cost.html

http://www.thewire.com/technology/2013/04/google-fiber-next-city/64048/

In other words my reason hasn't changed since I first brought this up.  As I eluded to earlier I've worked in the ISP sector and have had to explain this to customers.

Starfire and you want to blame everything on the government.  Talk about intellectual laziness.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22359689 - 10/10/15 03:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Paper, I thought you were in favor of socialism? Then you should want the govt to subsidize fiber optic cable.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22359756 - 10/10/15 03:50 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"What I mean by this is that proponents of these ideals always seem to have a swift answer to the most complex problems the world faces.

Poverty? Government stooges will fix it.
Corrupt government? Government stooges will fix it.
Income inequality? Government stooges will fix it.
Geopolitics? Government stooges will fix it.
Racism? Government stooges will fix it.

Granted, these views don't represent all the proponents of said philosophies, but I'm speaking on what I see most often. And here's the root of the problem: There is no single vial of snake oil that will cure all of society's ills, and your typical Collectivist believes just the opposite.

And they do so because it's EASY to think that way."











Really? :facepalm3:

You are a ridiculous fucking clown, dude.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22359762 - 10/10/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Income inequality is a GOOD thing, it motivates people...




It's actually not a good thing for the overall economy, case in the point is the US and its very slow rate of growth the past 10 years.

If the economic opportunities are present, then the inequality can be a very motivating factor (after WW2)!!  That's not the case today, the only things the massive inequality creates is frustration and anger.

The problem with today is the very rich haven't suffered at all in this economic downturn, even during the Great Depression the rich got burned big time, today it's only been the bottom 70%.

There's a reason why the inequality is so massive today and it has nothing to with motivation or talent, it's called financial games at the top.




:whathesaid:

Why can't the other conservatives around here be even 1/10 as smart as qman?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22359937 - 10/10/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"What I mean by this is that proponents of these ideals always seem to have a swift answer to the most complex problems the world faces.

Poverty? Government stooges will fix it.
Corrupt government? Government stooges will fix it.
Income inequality? Government stooges will fix it.
Geopolitics? Government stooges will fix it.
Racism? Government stooges will fix it.

Granted, these views don't represent all the proponents of said philosophies, but I'm speaking on what I see most often. And here's the root of the problem: There is no single vial of snake oil that will cure all of society's ills, and your typical Collectivist believes just the opposite.

And they do so because it's EASY to think that way."











Really? :facepalm3:

You are a ridiculous fucking clown, dude.





Take your ad-hominem elsewhere


--------------------


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