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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 1 hour, 23 minutes
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22448802 - 10/29/15 11:28 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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hostileuniverse said:
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KauaiOrca said:
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hostileuniverse said:
Well golly gee, you're just to darn smart
Don't argue with the Woof guys! If you present facts, he'll just ignore them and claim you never presented them, reply with a gif and declare how dumb you are and how superior he is, then he'll tell you how dumb you are again, just in case you didn't catch it the first time
And that's how wibberals win
What you tend to do, in your argument/rhetoric style, is to present a stereotyped argument you disagree with and accuse your adversary of holding that argument, when, in fact, they don't or certainly haven't indicated they do.
For instance, you say lots of positive things about Trump. Trump has written extensively about deceiving his lenders and investors. Why do you support deceiving investors?
See how that works? It's dishonest.
Everyone on this thread wants to see less corruption, less collusion, less crony capitalism, less waste, less corporate welfare and less long term dependence on government. Yet you can't accept that. I accept you feel this way and so do the people you disagree with. Republicans and Democrats have, TOGETHER, created the mess we're in. It is not clear that the Republicans are serious about getting rid of crony capitalism, shrinking government, getting after fraud, cutting spending or cutting debt yet you just assume they are. I'm an independent that has been EXTREMELY disappointed in the GOP and just don't trust them anymore as a party.
Trump comes across to me as another big government blowhard that will enable even more crony capitalism and legislation that favors big corporations over small ones. To make deals you have to compromise and he keeps shouting MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY because everyone except me is incompetent or stupid or both. That's just not going to work when you need to compromise with the other party and others in your own party. Because I doubt Trump's ability to get much done doesn't mean I'm a socialism pushing commie as you and others keep asserting.
What you're forgetting is I don't want to give either party more money, and more power, and more control over our lives. There are voices here that claim the same thing, and then advocate for programs and candidates that will exponentially expand governmental control. You really can't have it both ways, either you're for more govt control over our lives or you're not, and people that want govt to control healthcare, the banks, salaries and every other facet of our lives can not claim to want less govt waste fraud or abuse
Yes, but you're forgetting the Titanic sank because of a fucking ICEBERG!
By the way, the fact that you present an ultimatum does not make it a reality. The world is not black and white.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
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Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22448814 - 10/29/15 11:32 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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What the fuck are you babbling on about?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22450880 - 10/29/15 08:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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hostileuniverse said: Forcing people to buy insurance plans they don't need or want?
No one knows when they're going to need health insurance. And if they don't have it, everyone else gets stuck paying their bill, because they can't afford medical care when their time comes.
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hostileuniverse said: Forcing banks to give loans to people who can't afford and shouldn't own a house?
That's a lie. No bank was forced to make loans to people who couldn't afford it. Banks wanted to make such loans because they made a killing from it. Then they resold those mortgages to the public at large with high ratings, even though they knew they were shit.
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hostileuniverse said: How does forcing employers to pay their employees more than their worth help those who are worth more?
Stop with the straw man arguments. No one is forcing employers to pay anyone more than they're worth. If an employee isn't worth the minimum wage, then any capitalist knows they shouldn't hire that person. They will retain those people only if they were previously underpaid.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22452477 - 10/30/15 06:56 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why should every 50 year old be forced to buy birth control? Surely the instance of NEEDING that is extremely low
Ever heard of the community reinvestment act? Did you know banks were forced give loans in poor communities or be faced with heavy penalties for discrimination? http://www.forbes.com/2008/07/18/fannie-freddie-regulation-oped-cx_yb_0718brook.html
So now employers are supposed to be fortune tellers? How the fuck are they supposed if someone is a worthless turd before they hire them? Thats a ridiculous statement
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22452594 - 10/30/15 07:45 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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hostileuniverse said: Why should every 50 year old be forced to buy birth control? Surely the instance of NEEDING that is extremely low
Wow, you really don't get the concept of insurance. Money is pooled together and paid to people as they need it. The 50 year old will be covered for the things he needs with money from people who may not need those same things.
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hostileuniverse said: Ever heard of the community reinvestment act? Did you know banks were forced give loans in poor communities or be faced with heavy penalties for discrimination? http://www.forbes.com/2008/07/18/fannie-freddie-regulation-oped-cx_yb_0718brook.html
That's not the same as "forcing banks to give loans to people who can't afford them". And only 6% of all sub-prime loans were CRA loans, which was an insignificant amount.
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hostileuniverse said: So now employers are supposed to be fortune tellers? How the fuck are they supposed if someone is a worthless turd before they hire them? Thats a ridiculous statement
That statement applies for any employee that is hired at any wage. There are a lot of people who get hired for jobs above the minimum wage that are worthless turds.
As I said before, the employer has an obligation to his company to fire people who aren't worth their pay and hire someone else who is. There's nothing illegal about that.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22452610 - 10/30/15 07:52 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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As I said before, the employer has an obligation to his company to fire people who aren't worth their pay and hire someone else who is. There's nothing illegal about that.
Right, and when they fire those idiots, they have to pay them unemployment, which leads to a slower rate of hiring because they have to be so cautious. thats why increasing it hurts entry level applicants, driving up unemployment for those just entering the job market
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22452621 - 10/30/15 07:55 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wow, you really don't get the concept of insurance. Money is pooled together and paid to people as they need it. The 50 year old will be covered for the things he needs with money from people who may not need those same things.
And forcing people to buy insurance for things they will NEVER need is retarded. Before Obamacare, you actually had options for customizing your plan, and it worked quite well, now they're all the same! Welcome to the Borg, prepare to be assimilated
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22452644 - 10/30/15 08:01 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Wow, you really don't get the concept of insurance. Money is pooled together and paid to people as they need it. The 50 year old will be covered for the things he needs with money from people who may not need those same things.
And forcing people to buy insurance for things they will NEVER need is retarded. Before Obamacare, you actually had options for customizing your plan, and it worked quite well, now they're all the same! Welcome to the Borg, prepare to be assimilated
As a small business owner (since 1996) that paid years and years of premiums for up to 65 employees, I can tell you that the "old system" was expensive, went up in terms of cost every year, often with double digit % increases, and was very unfair in terms of how it treated things like pre-existing conditions.
Proclaiming that the US Health Insurance system pre-obamacare was a great system, is an absolute and total lie. It was a mess that favored big corporations and made it very difficult for small companies or independent contractors to compete. The system is fairer now although I do think Obama absolutely blew it in terms of the giveaways to insurance corporations. A single payer options should have been included.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22452647 - 10/30/15 08:03 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
That statement applies for any employee that is hired at any wage. There are a lot of people who get hired for jobs above the minimum wage that are worthless turds.
As I said before, the employer has an obligation to his company to fire people who aren't worth their pay and hire someone else who is. There's nothing illegal about that.
Right, and when they fire those idiots, they have to pay them unemployment, which leads to a slower rate of hiring because they have to be so cautious. thats why increasing it hurts entry level applicants, driving up unemployment for those just entering the job market
You're not listening. "That statement applies for any employee that is hired at any wage."
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22452665 - 10/30/15 08:11 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
As I said before, the employer has an obligation to his company to fire people who aren't worth their pay and hire someone else who is. There's nothing illegal about that.
Right, and when they fire those idiots, they have to pay them unemployment, which leads to a slower rate of hiring because they have to be so cautious. thats why increasing it hurts entry level applicants, driving up unemployment for those just entering the job market
Hiring, training and keeping good people is one of the most important tasks of running a good business. A lot of owners do a terrible job at it and "blame the system" for their inability to attract and keep good people. Any business owner that is not growing or prospering because of his/her fear of possible payout of unemployment insurance is, most likely, a shitty business owner.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 3 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22452821 - 10/30/15 09:21 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Wow, you really don't get the concept of insurance. Money is pooled together and paid to people as they need it. The 50 year old will be covered for the things he needs with money from people who may not need those same things.
And forcing people to buy insurance for things they will NEVER need is retarded. Before Obamacare, you actually had options for customizing your plan, and it worked quite well, now they're all the same! Welcome to the Borg, prepare to be assimilated
As a small business owner (since 1996) that paid years and years of premiums for up to 65 employees, I can tell you that the "old system" was expensive, went up in terms of cost every year, often with double digit % increases, and was very unfair in terms of how it treated things like pre-existing conditions.
Proclaiming that the US Health Insurance system pre-obamacare was a great system, is an absolute and total lie. It was a mess that favored big corporations and made it very difficult for small companies or independent contractors to compete. The system is fairer now although I do think Obama absolutely blew it in terms of the giveaways to insurance corporations. A single payer options should have been included.
Yeah, before Obama care was a shitfest, and now after Obama care seems to vary based on the individual circumstances, but still a shitfest.
Single payer is the best option, private insurance should NOT be involved in health care.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
#22452841 - 10/30/15 09:26 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Single payer is the best option, private insurance should NOT be involved in health care.
I agree with you ... Single payer for the basics and supplemental on the private market if and only if you want it.
End of life care is where most of the money is spent and we really have no answer at all on how to get those costs under control. A person in their 70's havingthree heart operations in a 5 year span is becoming more and more common. Our system was never set up to deal with that kind of expense.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 3 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22452872 - 10/30/15 09:38 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
qman said:
Single payer is the best option, private insurance should NOT be involved in health care.
I agree with you ... Single payer for the basics and supplemental on the private market if and only if you want it.
End of life care is where most of the money is spent and we really have no answer at all on how to get those costs under control. A person in their 70's havingthree heart operations in a 5 year span is becoming more and more common. Our system was never set up to deal with that kind of expense.
I believe universal health care systems in other countries practice sensible health care for the elderly, if they didn't the costs would spiral out of control. Ringing up $250-500k in costs during the last 12-18 months of a persons life makes no sense, all it does it get the doctors and others rich.
We have to have strict guidelines on how to treat them, doctors love performing a expensive operation on a 78 year old person, tons of money with no liability.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
#22452877 - 10/30/15 09:42 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
qman said:
Single payer is the best option, private insurance should NOT be involved in health care.
I agree with you ... Single payer for the basics and supplemental on the private market if and only if you want it.
End of life care is where most of the money is spent and we really have no answer at all on how to get those costs under control. A person in their 70's havingthree heart operations in a 5 year span is becoming more and more common. Our system was never set up to deal with that kind of expense.
I believe universal health care systems in other countries practice sensible health care for the elderly, if they didn't the costs would spiral out of control. Ringing up $250-500k in costs during the last 12-18 months of a persons life makes no sense, all it does it get the doctors and others rich.
We have to have strict guidelines on how to treat them, doctors love performing a expensive operation on a 78 year old person, tons of money with no liability.
Be careful, you're edging into Palin's "throw granny off the cliff" and "government death panels" territory ... LOL
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
#22452885 - 10/30/15 09:44 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
qman said:
Single payer is the best option, private insurance should NOT be involved in health care.
I agree with you ... Single payer for the basics and supplemental on the private market if and only if you want it.
End of life care is where most of the money is spent and we really have no answer at all on how to get those costs under control. A person in their 70's havingthree heart operations in a 5 year span is becoming more and more common. Our system was never set up to deal with that kind of expense.
I believe universal health care systems in other countries practice sensible health care for the elderly, if they didn't the costs would spiral out of control. Ringing up $250-500k in costs during the last 12-18 months of a persons life makes no sense, all it does it get the doctors and others rich.
We have to have strict guidelines on how to treat them, doctors love performing a expensive operation on a 78 year old person, tons of money with no liability.
Bring on the death panels! I hope all of you, in your later years are denied service and told to "go home and die"
My mother does home healthcare taking care of the elderly, her last client lived to be 99 years old because of modern medical improvements, we held our family holidays there, he was a great and wise man, the fact that you fucking people would have told him to go die in his seventies absolutely sickens me
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22452900 - 10/30/15 09:48 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Wow, you really don't get the concept of insurance. Money is pooled together and paid to people as they need it. The 50 year old will be covered for the things he needs with money from people who may not need those same things.
And forcing people to buy insurance for things they will NEVER need is retarded. Before Obamacare, you actually had options for customizing your plan, and it worked quite well, now they're all the same! Welcome to the Borg, prepare to be assimilated
As a small business owner (since 1996) that paid years and years of premiums for up to 65 employees, I can tell you that the "old system" was expensive, went up in terms of cost every year, often with double digit % increases, and was very unfair in terms of how it treated things like pre-existing conditions.
Proclaiming that the US Health Insurance system pre-obamacare was a great system, is an absolute and total lie. It was a mess that favored big corporations and made it very difficult for small companies or independent contractors to compete. The system is fairer now although I do think Obama absolutely blew it in terms of the giveaways to insurance corporations. A single payer options should have been included.
I never said it was a "great" system, I said it worked well, and it did
Premiums are still going up under Ocare, mine have doubled, so yeah, now that's a great plan!
As for pre existing conditions go, that's the point of insurance, you don't go get car insurance after youve wrecked your car, maybe y'all don't grasp the concept, wouldn't surprise me
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 3 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
#22452901 - 10/30/15 09:48 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
qman said:
Single payer is the best option, private insurance should NOT be involved in health care.
I agree with you ... Single payer for the basics and supplemental on the private market if and only if you want it.
End of life care is where most of the money is spent and we really have no answer at all on how to get those costs under control. A person in their 70's havingthree heart operations in a 5 year span is becoming more and more common. Our system was never set up to deal with that kind of expense.
I believe universal health care systems in other countries practice sensible health care for the elderly, if they didn't the costs would spiral out of control. Ringing up $250-500k in costs during the last 12-18 months of a persons life makes no sense, all it does it get the doctors and others rich.
We have to have strict guidelines on how to treat them, doctors love performing a expensive operation on a 78 year old person, tons of money with no liability.
Be careful, you're edging into Palin's "throw granny off the cliff" and "government death panels" territory ... LOL
Yeah, but what those morons never realize is that these medical professionals torture many of these elderly patients that are already half dead for profit and personal gain.
It's beyond unethical how they practice on them, unless you question what they are going to do, they go full force ahead even when it's not in the best interest of the patient, disgraceful.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22452902 - 10/30/15 09:48 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
My mother does home healthcare taking care of the elderly, her last client lived to be 99 years old because of modern medical improvements, we held our family holidays there, he was a great and wise man, the fact that you fucking people would have told him to go die in his seventies absolutely sickens me
So, you are FOR a medicare system that allows a person to receive $500,000 in benefits when they only paid in $65,000 in taxes to fund it? Is that your position?
WHO should pay for all these end of life procedures?
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
#22452905 - 10/30/15 09:50 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Lol, yeah like when Obama claimed doctors cut off limbs for money, no, that's the abortion industry, fully subsidized and endorsed by govt and liberals
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 3 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22452910 - 10/30/15 09:51 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
qman said:
Single payer is the best option, private insurance should NOT be involved in health care.
I agree with you ... Single payer for the basics and supplemental on the private market if and only if you want it.
End of life care is where most of the money is spent and we really have no answer at all on how to get those costs under control. A person in their 70's havingthree heart operations in a 5 year span is becoming more and more common. Our system was never set up to deal with that kind of expense.
I believe universal health care systems in other countries practice sensible health care for the elderly, if they didn't the costs would spiral out of control. Ringing up $250-500k in costs during the last 12-18 months of a persons life makes no sense, all it does it get the doctors and others rich.
We have to have strict guidelines on how to treat them, doctors love performing a expensive operation on a 78 year old person, tons of money with no liability.
Bring on the death panels! I hope all of you, in your later years are denied service and told to "go home and die"
My mother does home healthcare taking care of the elderly, her last client lived to be 99 years old because of modern medical improvements, we held our family holidays there, he was a great and wise man, the fact that you fucking people would have told him to go die in his seventies absolutely sickens me
If he can afford all the health care he desires, more power to him, but don't make the taxpayer fund it to get the doctors rich. That man never contributed enough to medicare to fund his health expenses, so who did?
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