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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #22415470 - 10/21/15 08:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Obumble jacked up the debt more than all previous presidents in our 200 year history combined. That is a fact and the left can not erase it. Instead of getting a great economy out of the deal, roads fixed, mass transportation, r+d into things we need, instead of that we get bombs blowing up arabs. Only psychopaths think that is a good deal. Our economy is creaking and many signs point to a crash ahead. Who will we blame that on, shrub? Maybe Reagan?

The idiot in the white house wants more troops in Afghanistan, indefinitely. The billions he threw around in Syria have yielded nothing except grief for the civilians, death and displacement.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22415491 - 10/21/15 08:12 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Nope, sorry, i know it sounds crazy, but thats the monetary system we live under.

give this book a read if you are feeling up to it.  I disagree with some of the author's conclusions, but his facts are solid.  It is about the Federal Reserve, but it also has a nice short history of money.
https://archive.org/details/CreatureFromJekyllIslandByG.Edward-G.EdwardGriffin


--------------------


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22415785 - 10/21/15 09:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Great book :highfive:


--------------------


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22416114 - 10/21/15 11:06 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
everyone is always so up in arms about debt.  Now don't get me wrong, i think reserve banking is a horrible scam on the public. However, it is the system we have adopted.  Here's the thing that people forget about our monetary system: every single federal reserve note (dollar bill) represents 1 dollar+interest.  Thats because the assets backing those dollars are debt. (the full faith and credit of the united states government) No debt=no dollars.


p

That is severe BS, no debt= no dollars? That's maybe the most crazy shit I've seen put forward, just strait up insanity




That's how reserve banking works. It is ridiculous, btw.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22416435 - 10/22/15 01:43 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Washington post is hardly credible



Dude, the guy whose research was cited by the Wall Street Journal said the Journal was full of shit.  Obviously in this case the Washington post was proven correct.  :facepalm:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22416476 - 10/22/15 02:05 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
give this book a read if you are feeling up to it.  It is about the Federal Reserve, but it also has a nice short history of money.
https://archive.org/details/CreatureFromJekyllIslandByG.Edward-G.EdwardGriffin



Great book :highfive:



I read it.  The author is a batshit crazy conspiracy nut.  I wrote an extensive review of what he gets wrong and why, but I can't seem to find it here.  Perhaps it was in a Facebook discussion.  Does anyone know if there's a way to search Facebook for old posts?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22416507 - 10/22/15 02:32 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I found an early draft of my critique of The Creature from Jekyll Island.  It's incomplete, but gets a few good points across:


Claim #1.  The Federal Reserve is a cartel designed to eliminate competition in banking and thereby generate huge profits for its members

First of all, the Federal Reserve and the banks are VERY different.  How often do you ask the Federal Reserve for a home loan, or deposit your paycheck into a Federal Reserve checking account?  Banks are everywhere, with no sign of a banking monopoly.
Second, virtually all profits of the Fed go to the Government, except a nominal fee for member banks
Third, see how much the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, makes each year and how much he is worth.


Claim #2.  Banks make huge profits from the Federal Reserve because if the Fed loans money to the Government, that money is now available for people to deposit into banks, which then collect more interest on it

True, it also means EVERYONE has more money, some of it gets deposited into banks and some of it gets spent to stimulate the economy (banks just get a piece of the action that everyone else is getting)


Claim #3.  By creating new money, existing money is diluted and the Government is making out while everyone else loses ("Inflation is a tax").

True, except this is no secret.  Everyone knows there is about a 3% inflation rate per year (on average) and people invest or save accordingly.  Most people get a cost of living adjustment each year to their salary to adjust for this, so they're not really losing money (unless they stash money in their couch, and don't invest it to make up for inflation).


Claim #4.  Inflation allowed Governments to collect an extra 40% - 80% tax without the people knowing it.

Not in the US.  Inflation here is about 3% (not 40% - 80%), and EVERY business KNOWS about it.


Claim #5.  The Fed allows banks to charge interest on "money" that doesn't even exist.

This allows businesses to borrow money at a lower interest rate, which helps businesses.



I wished I could find the final version, as this one was just the beginning.  Oh well.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #22416983 - 10/22/15 06:55 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

It is our FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING SYSTEM that creates most of the money that is in circulation.  There are advantages and disadvantages to this system of lending but if you want to get rid of it, you need some way of creating all the money needed to build the buildings, fund mortgages, fund corporate expansion, etc.

The money supply is NEVER fixed.  It is dynamic and always changing.  It is LENDING that generates our money supply. 

We could have a discussion about derivatives now given the total value of the derivatives market is now over 850 TRILLION dollars.  This is the latest greatest scam of how the wealthiest create assets out of fictional debt generated by enormous leverage off of margin (borrowing) accounts.  In essence you borrow huge sums (often 200X what your capital is) and trade with it then take the profits and convert that to assets.  Unfortunately about .0001% of Americans understand how this works and this is the real problem with America's financial system and the underlying cause of the 08/09 financial crisis.  Derivatives are the equivalent of financial WMD's the way they are now being used and traded by giant financial institutions, many though dark pools of investment capital.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22417100 - 10/22/15 07:51 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Do your panties get wet when you think about derivatives? Unless you are trading in them, they have zero effect on your life, lol

Before 1913, we didn't even have the fed, how did anything get done?


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22417112 - 10/22/15 07:54 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Do your panties get wet when you think about derivatives? Unless you are trading in them, they have zero effect on your life, lol

Before 1913, we didn't even have the fed, how did anything get done?




America had several iterations of central banks before 1913.  Central Banks were generally brought in because congress did a poor job themselves of managing the money supply. Do you really want congress to use the  money supply as a tool during the political cycle?  I can't imagine a worse way to manage our money supply then to give it to partisan politicians looking to score points each election cycle.

Derivatives have a huge impact on investments ... you just don't understand them.  Options, futures, currencies ... all depend on derivatives trading.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22417125 - 10/22/15 07:59 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Unfortunately about .0001% of Americans understand how this works




You're so smart

It's not fair that the top 1% have 99% of the knowledge, we definitely need to break up the big colleges


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22417156 - 10/22/15 08:10 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Do your panties get wet when you think about derivatives? Unless you are trading in them, they have zero effect on your life, lol

Before 1913, we didn't even have the fed, how did anything get done?




America had several iterations of central banks before 1913.  Central Banks were generally brought in because congress did a poor job themselves of managing the money supply. Do you really want congress to use the  money supply as a tool during the political cycle?  I can't imagine a worse way to manage our money supply then to give it to partisan politicians looking to score points each election cycle.

Derivatives have a huge impact on investments ... you just don't understand them.  Options, futures, currencies ... all depend on derivatives trading.




One of my moms friends was trying to show me how to use a program to trade on Forex... for some reason I got the impression that currency trading was illegal for US citizens. I was in highschool, so I didn't quite understand all of it, but I wanted to!

Shit, even guys like you and me could take out loans and trade them for profits... the only problem is they use complex computer programs and insider knowledge to turn a profit... I don't know how it works. I think they prefer it that way >.<


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22417225 - 10/22/15 08:36 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Do your panties get wet when you think about derivatives? Unless you are trading in them, they have zero effect on your life, lol

Before 1913, we didn't even have the fed, how did anything get done?




America had several iterations of central banks before 1913.  Central Banks were generally brought in because congress did a poor job themselves of managing the money supply. Do you really want congress to use the  money supply as a tool during the political cycle?  I can't imagine a worse way to manage our money supply then to give it to partisan politicians looking to score points each election cycle.

Derivatives have a huge impact on investments ... you just don't understand them.  Options, futures, currencies ... all depend on derivatives trading.




One of my moms friends was trying to show me how to use a program to trade on Forex... for some reason I got the impression that currency trading was illegal for US citizens. I was in highschool, so I didn't quite understand all of it, but I wanted to!

Shit, even guys like you and me could take out loans and trade them for profits... the only problem is they use complex computer programs and insider knowledge to turn a profit... I don't know how it works. I think they prefer it that way >.<




Just ask porka, she knows how they work and can prolly show you, I'd ask her to show me, but I don't think she likes me


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22417239 - 10/22/15 08:43 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Unfortunately about .0001% of Americans understand how this works




You're so smart






Appreciate that.  I can't say the same about you.  You should ask more questions, listen more and resist the temptation to remind us, over and over again, how ignorant you are about socialism, capitalism, our monetary system and business in general.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22417263 - 10/22/15 08:53 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I found an early draft of my critique of The Creature from Jekyll Island.  It's incomplete, but gets a few good points across:


Claim #1.  The Federal Reserve is a cartel designed to eliminate competition in banking and thereby generate huge profits for its members

First of all, the Federal Reserve and the banks are VERY different.  How often do you ask the Federal Reserve for a home loan, or deposit your paycheck into a Federal Reserve checking account?  Banks are everywhere, with no sign of a banking monopoly.
Second, virtually all profits of the Fed go to the Government, except a nominal fee for member banks
Third, see how much the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, makes each year and how much he is worth.


Claim #2.  Banks make huge profits from the Federal Reserve because if the Fed loans money to the Government, that money is now available for people to deposit into banks, which then collect more interest on it

True, it also means EVERYONE has more money, some of it gets deposited into banks and some of it gets spent to stimulate the economy (banks just get a piece of the action that everyone else is getting)


Claim #3.  By creating new money, existing money is diluted and the Government is making out while everyone else loses ("Inflation is a tax").

True, except this is no secret.  Everyone knows there is about a 3% inflation rate per year (on average) and people invest or save accordingly.  Most people get a cost of living adjustment each year to their salary to adjust for this, so they're not really losing money (unless they stash money in their couch, and don't invest it to make up for inflation).


Claim #4.  Inflation allowed Governments to collect an extra 40% - 80% tax without the people knowing it.

Not in the US.  Inflation here is about 3% (not 40% - 80%), and EVERY business KNOWS about it.


Claim #5.  The Fed allows banks to charge interest on "money" that doesn't even exist.

This allows businesses to borrow money at a lower interest rate, which helps businesses.



I wished I could find the final version, as this one was just the beginning.  Oh well.




Re: #1: There are definitely signs of near monopolies in banking, and certainly collusion. But as far as Fed profits go, the member banks are more concerned with policy.

I pretty much agree with you on the rest though. The specifics get overblown and sensationalized, but I still disagree with the concept of fractional reserve banking.


--------------------


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22417283 - 10/22/15 09:03 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:

Just ask porka, she knows how they work and can prolly show you, I'd ask her to show me, but I don't think she likes me




Way over your pay grade, Hostile.  I've already given you a reading list which you haven't even started on.  You need some basic education on capitalism, communism, socialism, free markets, how our lending system works ...

Basic homework, bud.  That's where you should start.  Get past the slogans and develop your mind.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22417321 - 10/22/15 09:15 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I found an early draft of my critique of The Creature from Jekyll Island.  It's incomplete, but gets a few good points across:


Claim #1.  The Federal Reserve is a cartel designed to eliminate competition in banking and thereby generate huge profits for its members

First of all, the Federal Reserve and the banks are VERY different.  How often do you ask the Federal Reserve for a home loan, or deposit your paycheck into a Federal Reserve checking account?  Banks are everywhere, with no sign of a banking monopoly.
Second, virtually all profits of the Fed go to the Government, except a nominal fee for member banks
Third, see how much the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, makes each year and how much he is worth.


Claim #2.  Banks make huge profits from the Federal Reserve because if the Fed loans money to the Government, that money is now available for people to deposit into banks, which then collect more interest on it

True, it also means EVERYONE has more money, some of it gets deposited into banks and some of it gets spent to stimulate the economy (banks just get a piece of the action that everyone else is getting)


Claim #3.  By creating new money, existing money is diluted and the Government is making out while everyone else loses ("Inflation is a tax").

True, except this is no secret.  Everyone knows there is about a 3% inflation rate per year (on average) and people invest or save accordingly.  Most people get a cost of living adjustment each year to their salary to adjust for this, so they're not really losing money (unless they stash money in their couch, and don't invest it to make up for inflation).


Claim #4.  Inflation allowed Governments to collect an extra 40% - 80% tax without the people knowing it.

Not in the US.  Inflation here is about 3% (not 40% - 80%), and EVERY business KNOWS about it.


Claim #5.  The Fed allows banks to charge interest on "money" that doesn't even exist.

This allows businesses to borrow money at a lower interest rate, which helps businesses.



I wished I could find the final version, as this one was just the beginning.  Oh well.




"Fed loans money to the government"

How so?


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22417333 - 10/22/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

How so?




US Treasuries are exchanged for Federal Reserve Notes.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: qman]
    #22417356 - 10/22/15 09:28 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"Fed loans money to the government"

How so?




https://archive.org/details/CreatureFromJekyllIslandByG.Edward-G.EdwardGriffin

page 193


--------------------


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22417375 - 10/22/15 09:35 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Obumble jacked up the debt more than all previous presidents in our 200 year history combined. That is a fact and the left can not erase it. Instead of getting a great economy out of the deal, roads fixed, mass transportation, r+d into things we need, instead of that we get bombs blowing up arabs. Only psychopaths think that is a good deal. Our economy is creaking and many signs point to a crash ahead. Who will we blame that on, shrub? Maybe Reagan?

The idiot in the white house wants more troops in Afghanistan, indefinitely. The billions he threw around in Syria have yielded nothing except grief for the civilians, death and displacement.




Well said. Obumble is doing his best to destroy our country


--------------------


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