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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness
    #22351043 - 10/08/15 05:31 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

"What I mean by this is that proponents of these ideals always seem to have a swift answer to the most complex problems the world faces.

Poverty? Government stooges will fix it.
Corrupt government? Government stooges will fix it.
Income inequality? Government stooges will fix it.
Geopolitics? Government stooges will fix it.
Racism? Government stooges will fix it.

Granted, these views don't represent all the proponents of said philosophies, but I'm speaking on what I see most often. And here's the root of the problem: There is no single vial of snake oil that will cure all of society's ills, and your typical Collectivist believes just the opposite.

And they do so because it's EASY to think that way."







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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22351059 - 10/08/15 05:37 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

100% agree, bigger govt is ALWAYS the answer... So simplistic, just if we put the right people in charge, first Obama, then BS... It's always the next greatest hope...

Did ya hear Rahm Emanuel has been indicted on corruption charges? Obama's right hand man, go figure... Though it gives me hope Obama is next...


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22351080 - 10/08/15 05:42 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Presidents never get prosecuted. They give themselves a pardon before leaving office anyway.

The vast majority in here are big govt enthusiasts. Govt is sucking up about 1/4 of the economy and is on track to take 1/2 if it keeps growing. They spy on us constantly, enforce stupid laws that people don't want but ignore the laws themselves. See hitlery Clinton.

Those socialist countries in Europe they like to brag on are going down the drain, the ones that don't have a fortune in oil money coming in every year that is. Even Germany is teetering and the fools are letting in more refugees. Disaster looms.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #22351180 - 10/08/15 06:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Presidents never get prosecuted. They give themselves a pardon before leaving office anyway.

The vast majority in here are big govt enthusiasts. Govt is sucking up about 1/4 of the economy and is on track to take 1/2 if it keeps growing. They spy on us constantly, enforce stupid laws that people don't want but ignore the laws themselves. See hitlery Clinton.

Those socialist countries in Europe they like to brag on are going down the drain, the ones that don't have a fortune in oil money coming in every year that is. Even Germany is teetering and the fools are letting in more refugees. Disaster looms.




Yep, and so is America, they really believe somehow the debt will just be magically wiped, fact is, that isn't going to happen, and if it does, it will give our biggest debt holders COMPLETE control over us, hard to believe they're willing to give up US sovereignty to a bank and China, but, there it is...

Socialism has failed everywhere it's tried, that's a fact


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22351313 - 10/08/15 06:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>Socialism has failed everywhere it's tried, that's a fact

True, except where it hasn't had enough time to fail yet. Like Norway and its oilfields.

The debt will be magically wiped out by massive inflation, not by giving the country to china. Most of the qe that has gone on has been channeled into the stock market which is why its still flying high but the market's days are numbered too. What happens when they print up a few trillion every year to pay off the debt? Everybody's cash loses value because there is more money chasing the same amount of goods.

It will hurt the economy, there will be a worldwide depression that they will call a recession just like they call today's anemic economy a "recovery". Goods and services will go up in value, those commodities that no one wants right now, soon they will be worth a lot. Oil is down but will not stay down. Invest in oil fields that no one wants. Gold and silver will shoot up when people see paper money loses value every year.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: Stonehenge]
    #22351383 - 10/08/15 06:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

We're going the way of Greece and these socialist morons are making sure we get there.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2014/09/29/the-seven-most-indebted-nations/


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22351444 - 10/08/15 06:47 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)



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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22353592 - 10/09/15 08:10 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"What I mean by this is that proponents of these ideals always seem to have a swift answer to the most complex problems the world faces.

Poverty? Government stooges will fix it.
Corrupt government? Government stooges will fix it.
Income inequality? Government stooges will fix it.
Geopolitics? Government stooges will fix it.
Racism? Government stooges will fix it.

Granted, these views don't represent all the proponents of said philosophies, but I'm speaking on what I see most often. And here's the root of the problem: There is no single vial of snake oil that will cure all of society's ills, and your typical Collectivist believes just the opposite.

And they do so because it's EASY to think that way."




I actually agree.  There's a lot of socialists that think this way.  There's also the other side of the spectrum where a lot of capitalists believe that if government would quit fucking things up everything would be better.  This is the same kind of magical 'snake oil' thinking.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22353707 - 10/09/15 09:00 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Glad we can agree on something.

For Capitalists: Government is just one problem, but there are many more (IE. competition).

Yes if "the government would quit fucking things up" things WOULD be better. How can this be refuted?


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22353805 - 10/09/15 09:26 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Competition only works to exert market pressure when it exists.  Not every product will have competition as it's not always profitable to compete with a monopoly, in fact, it's often not profitable.

We can look at cable providers for an example of this.  There's very little government interference but it's just too expensive to lay new cable lines to compete in the market.

Another prime example is the hedge fund manager that jacked the price of a med up 5000% after buying the factory that produces it.  This is the generic form of the drug, there's just no competition in the market.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/generic-drug-price-increases-5000-percent-overnight/

Finally, it's worth saying, that free market capitalism implies free trade.  Something I see a lot of conservatives disagree with (just look at Mexico and Trump's support).  Supporting free markets while disparaging free trade is the definition of double think.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22353867 - 10/09/15 09:39 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Competition only works to exert market pressure when it exists.  Not every product will have competition as it's not always profitable to compete with a monopoly, in fact, it's often not profitable.

We can look at cable providers for an example of this.  There's very little government interference but it's just too expensive to lay new cable lines to compete in the market.

Another prime example is the hedge fund manager that jacked the price of a med up 5000% after buying the factory that produces it.  This is the generic form of the drug, there's just no competition in the market.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/generic-drug-price-increases-5000-percent-overnight/

Finally, it's worth saying, that free market capitalism implies free trade.  Something I see a lot of conservatives disagree with (just look at Mexico and Trump's support).  Supporting free markets while disparaging free trade is the definition of double think.




Yeah that's why I said that competition is an enemy to Capitalists. Basic economics.

Actually you can support a tax on incoming goods while still supporting free trade because Free trade talks about restrictions, not taxation.

"Free trade is a policy followed by some international markets in which countries' governments do not restrict imports from, or exports to, other countries. Free trade is exemplified by the European Economic Area and the North American Free Trade Agreement, which have established open markets."

Yes if "the government would quit fucking things up" things WOULD be better. How can this be refuted?


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22353891 - 10/09/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I don't give a shit about capitalists I care about rather or not the system is functional.  You seem to be arguing that monopolies are good (for capitalists) which I can agree is true to an extent.  It's good if you're the one monopolizing the market.  It's obviously bad for everyone else including the consumer.

Outside of government how do we break up monopolies?  Or are you suggesting that we don't?

Free trade also implies freedom of movement for the workers.  Something the EU also has.  You don't see the parallels with Mexico and how capitalists in this country are arguing for free markets but not for free trade?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22353927 - 10/09/15 09:53 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I don't give a shit about capitalists I care about rather or not the system is functional.  You seem to be arguing that monopolies are good (for capitalists) which I can agree is true to an extent.  It's good if you're the one monopolizing the market.  It's obviously bad for everyone else including the consumer.

Outside of government how do we break up monopolies?  Or are you suggesting that we don't?

Free trade also implies freedom of movement for the workers.  Something the EU also has.  You don't see the parallels with Mexico and how capitalists in this country are arguing for free markets but not for free trade?




I think the point of this thread was to find out those few things that socialists REFUSE to let the government take over. We already know that gov. CAN (most of the time won't) do some things good like break up monopolies. At what cost? A different conversation.

Europe has immigration laws while using Free trade, or did I miss something?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integration_law_for_immigrants_to_the_Netherlands


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22353983 - 10/09/15 10:05 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I thought the point of the thread was to troll socialists so I figured I'd really piss you off by agreeing with you.

Personally I don't believe government is the solution.  I think we can use it as a tool for social change but ultimately I believe we need a strong labor movement in this country to really get anything worthwhile accomplished.

This is the false dichotomy I was trying to point out to you in my supposed ad-hominem attack that you rated me a zero for.  Socialism does not equal welfare.  It's about bottom up rather than top down economics.  There's several forms of Socialist thought that are in fact anarchist and even those that support free trade.

As far as Europe, they have free trade and open borders within the EU.  This is not free trade in a global capitalist sense of the word.  It's about as free as the free trade between U.S. member states.

And I should apologize, when I use Free Trade I'm referring to Free Markets.  Which would necessarily include open borders otherwise governments are interfering with labor.

Free Market

Quote:

an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.




Even Ayn Rand supported free migration and it doesn't get more far-right than that.

http://openborders.info/ayn-rand-immigration-obvious/


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354015 - 10/09/15 10:12 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
I thought the point of the thread was to troll socialists so I figured I'd really piss you off by agreeing with you.

Personally I don't believe government is the solution.  I think we can use it as a tool for social change but ultimately I believe we need a strong labor movement in this country to really get anything worthwhile accomplished.

This is the false dichotomy I was trying to point out to you in my supposed ad-hominem attack that you rated me a zero for.  Socialism does not equal welfare.  It's about bottom up rather than top down economics.  There's several forms of Socialist thought that are in fact anarchist and even those that support free trade.

As far as Europe, they have free trade and open borders within the EU.  This is not free trade in a global capitalist sense of the word.  It's about as free as the free trade between U.S. member states.

And I should apologize, when I use Free Trade I'm referring to Free Markets.  Which would necessarily include open borders otherwise governments are interfering with labor.

Free Market

Quote:

an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.




Even Ayn Rand supported free migration and it doesn't get more far-right than that.

http://openborders.info/ayn-rand-immigration-obvious/




What social change that we need gov to provide that won't happen in the future naturally, without gov? We already have a strong labor movement-they're called Unions. Public unions are bankrupting our nation.

I did not bring up a dichotomy. I'm merely posting here to point out the problems with the gov tax and spend scheme. I'm not on this planet to pay for some Gov'/IRS Agent's boob job-Fuck them all.

Free Markets exists inside borders, always have and always will.


--------------------

Edited by burgerbrain (10/09/15 10:19 AM)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22354046 - 10/09/15 10:20 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

How about income inequality?  How do you suppose we fix that without government regulation or socialist methods (worker movements)?

Or is this just not an issue to you?


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354054 - 10/09/15 10:22 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
How about income inequality?  How do you suppose we fix that without government regulation or socialist methods (worker movements)?

Or is this just not an issue to you?




Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Im bumping this thread because the OP is still extremely relevant to this sub. Ignore the derails and lets discuss the original premise. Heres the first post:

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
What I mean by this is that proponents of these ideals always seem to have a swift answer to the most complex problems the world faces.

Poverty? Laziness.
Corrupt government? Do away with it altogether.
Income inequality? Laziness.
Geopolitics? Kill them all.
Racism? It doesn't exist.

Granted, these views don't respresent all the proponents of said philosophies, but I'm speaking on what I see most often. And here's the root of the problem: There is no single vial of snake oil that will cure all of society's ills, and your typical Reaganite believes just the opposite.

And they do so because it's EASY to think that way.

How do these people reconcile the negative consequences of capitalism? Write it off as cronyism. People like this don't struggle with reconciliation of different ideals, because in their mind, the answer is clear. And it's easier that way, sorta like the people who believe God is responsible for any and all unknowns.

This kind of thinking is pervasive, and I'm getting sick of seeing these multiple choice discussions take place on this forum because certain people are too insecure in their beliefs to admit that, just maybe, there are downsides to the beliefs they hold dear. there's no internal conflict, no struggle, and it's downright dishonest.









Too much bullshit in one thread. Bullshit overload.

I'll start slow for the libs:

Poverty? Laziness. Poverty in America? First world problems. Our poor have enough food, cable tv, etc.

Corrupt government? Do away with it altogether. Tea Party Libertarians voted in to end corruption and make gov smaller so the corruption doesn't do as much damage.

Income inequality? Laziness. When has income inequality never existed? Obviously the real conversation should be about "Standard of Living"

Geopolitics? Kill them all. Is that what Ron Paul the Libertarian said, kiddo?

Racism? It doesn't exist. Our nation elected Obowma, twice. That must be RACIST! More whites than blacks are killed by cops. Where's the racism? Oh I found it! Affirmative Action is RACISM.




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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354058 - 10/09/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Income inequality is a GOOD thing, it motivates people...


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22354102 - 10/09/15 10:31 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

>We can look at cable providers for an example of this.  There's very little government interference but it's just too expensive to lay new cable lines to compete in the market.

Ever heard of satellite? How about direct streaming over the net?

>Another prime example is the hedge fund manager that jacked the price of a med up 5000% after buying the factory that produces it.  This is the generic form of the drug, there's just no competition in the market.

Now competitors have a motive to compete, they can make a lot of money at that price and the price will come down.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Socialism, Communism, Collectivism, and Democratic Socialism is intellectual laziness [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22354110 - 10/09/15 10:34 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Income inequality is a GOOD thing, it motivates people...




That's bullshit.  There's countries with higher GDP than us that have less income inequality.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Income inequality? Laziness. When has income inequality never existed? Obviously the real conversation should be about "Standard of Living"




Okay then, standard of living.  Frankly I don't give a shit about money aside from standard of living.  Income Inequality brings down all of our standard of living.  Hungry people are more likely to commit crime out of desperation.  Less likely to see mental health care workers.  Less likely to go to any doctor really.  More likely to be suffering in general.  More likely to have a parent go to prison.  More likely to miss school because they go to work or didn't go see the doctor.  More likely to live in a neighborhood with an underfunded educational system (Adam Smith, by the way, advocated that corporations should pay for education through taxes).  More likely to get caught in the system because they can't afford a lawyer and more likely to view themselves and act as a criminal because of this.

All of this is all of our problem.  Even if you live in a nice neighborhood you still may get mugged or carjacked by someone trying to make ends meet when you leave your nice cushy condo.

Money is the basic value of rather or not we can function within our society.  It's a lot more than oh, you're not starving like people in Africa so your standard of living is fine.  Even our justice system assumes that people can afford to defend themselves in court.  The truth is far from that.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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