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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain] * 1
    #22377500 - 10/14/15 08:59 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Figure 4: Financial Net Wealth of Households

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_310463.pdf



The problem with your graph is that it looks at average wealth, which is meaningless in the United States, since the 400 wealthiest Americans own 62% of the wealth, meaning the average wealth per household for the other 320 million people is less than half of what your graph shows.

What is FAR more relevant is median numbers:



Here we see the countries Bernie mentioned are doing better than the US.

And if you prefer to look at median wealth over median income (which definitely makes sense), the US is doing MUCH worse:

U.S. Median Wealth Only 27th in World

That's why I'd vote for Bernie.  I'd like more wealth for the rest of us, not just the top 400 people.






LOL so you're saying Norway doesn't have rich people? Hilarious.


The following is a list of Norwegian billionaires. It is based on an annual assessment of wealth and assets compiled and published by Forbes magazine on March 10, 2013.[1]
1 198 Olav Thon real estate $6.0 billion
2 329 Stein Erik Hagen retail $4.0 billion
3 458 Kjell Inge Røkke shipping, seafood $3.0 billion
4 931 Arne Wilhelmsen Royal Caribbean $1.6 billion
5 1107 Andreas Halvorsen hedge fund $1.3 billion
6 1175 Petter Stordalen hotels $1.2 billion

LOL your median wealth graph is bullshit-doesn't even talk about taxation which is DOUBLE in Norway.

Socialists are a confused bunch.




Wait, so you're saying that even though it has a much higher tax rate, Norway produces billionaires?

good point.


--------------------


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #22377514 - 10/14/15 09:04 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Figure 4: Financial Net Wealth of Households

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_310463.pdf



The problem with your graph is that it looks at average wealth, which is meaningless in the United States, since the 400 wealthiest Americans own 62% of the wealth, meaning the average wealth per household for the other 320 million people is less than half of what your graph shows.

What is FAR more relevant is median numbers:



Here we see the countries Bernie mentioned are doing better than the US.

And if you prefer to look at median wealth over median income (which definitely makes sense), the US is doing MUCH worse:

U.S. Median Wealth Only 27th in World

That's why I'd vote for Bernie.  I'd like more wealth for the rest of us, not just the top 400 people.




It;s Fal!!!!

We've missed you far left viewpointx, brah.  :awesomenod:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22378323 - 10/14/15 12:17 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The problem with your graph is that it looks at average wealth, which is meaningless in the United States, since the 400 wealthiest Americans own 62% of the wealth, meaning the average wealth per household for the other 320 million people is less than half of what your graph shows.

What is FAR more relevant is median numbers



LOL so you're saying Norway doesn't have rich people? Hilarious.



No.  I'm saying average wealth is meaningless.  Median wealth is what matters, and the US is WAY behind more socialist countries in median wealth.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
LOL your median wealth graph is bullshit-doesn't even talk about taxation which is DOUBLE in Norway.



Taxation is completely irrelevant to one's wealth.  If I'm taxed at 99% and have $1 billion in wealth, I'm a lot better off than someone being taxed at 1% who has $10,000 in wealth.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22380508 - 10/14/15 07:53 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The problem with your graph is that it looks at average wealth, which is meaningless in the United States, since the 400 wealthiest Americans own 62% of the wealth, meaning the average wealth per household for the other 320 million people is less than half of what your graph shows.

What is FAR more relevant is median numbers



LOL so you're saying Norway doesn't have rich people? Hilarious.



No.  I'm saying average wealth is meaningless.  Median wealth is what matters, and the US is WAY behind more socialist countries in median wealth.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
LOL your median wealth graph is bullshit-doesn't even talk about taxation which is DOUBLE in Norway.



Taxation is completely irrelevant to one's wealth.  If I'm taxed at 99% and have $1 billion in wealth, I'm a lot better off than someone being taxed at 1% who has $10,000 in wealth.




Please explain why "average wealth" is "meaningless" while "median wealth" is what matters.

I see you didn't link any graph in median wealth, just some more bankrupt socialist garbage.

"The mean, sometimes called the arithmetic mean, of this set is 33. The mean is the sum of all the numbers in the set (167) divided by the amount of numbers in the set (5).
The median is the middle point of a number set, in which half the numbers are above the median and half are below. In our set above, the median is 30. But what if your number set has an even number of, er, numbers: 11
• 23
• 30
• 47
• 52
• 56

To calculate the median here, add the two middle numbers (30 + 47) and divide by 2. The median for our new list is 38.5. "


That's why I noted that taxes are double for everyone in Norway, rich or poor. I wasn't talking about wealth vs taxes, but if you want to we can.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22380643 - 10/14/15 08:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The problem with your graph is that it looks at average wealth, which is meaningless in the United States, since the 400 wealthiest Americans own 62% of the wealth, meaning the average wealth per household for the other 320 million people is less than half of what your graph shows.

What is FAR more relevant is median numbers



LOL so you're saying Norway doesn't have rich people? Hilarious.



No.  I'm saying average wealth is meaningless.  Median wealth is what matters, and the US is WAY behind more socialist countries in median wealth.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
LOL your median wealth graph is bullshit-doesn't even talk about taxation which is DOUBLE in Norway.



Taxation is completely irrelevant to one's wealth.  If I'm taxed at 99% and have $1 billion in wealth, I'm a lot better off than someone being taxed at 1% who has $10,000 in wealth.




Please explain why "average wealth" is "meaningless" while "median wealth" is what matters.

I see you didn't link any graph in median wealth, just some more bankrupt socialist garbage.

"The mean, sometimes called the arithmetic mean, of this set is 33. The mean is the sum of all the numbers in the set (167) divided by the amount of numbers in the set (5).
The median is the middle point of a number set, in which half the numbers are above the median and half are below. In our set above, the median is 30. But what if your number set has an even number of, er, numbers: 11
• 23
• 30
• 47
• 52
• 56

To calculate the median here, add the two middle numbers (30 + 47) and divide by 2. The median for our new list is 38.5. "


That's why I noted that taxes are double for everyone in Norway, rich or poor. I wasn't talking about wealth vs taxes, but if you want to we can.




Double the taxes? Well why WOULD'NT everyone go for that???


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22381424 - 10/14/15 11:36 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Please explain why "average wealth" is "meaningless" while "median wealth" is what matters.



It should have been obvious from the real numbers I provided.  It's because 400 Americans control 62% of America's wealth, making the average appear to be more than double what the other 320 million people are really making.  The median is what the guy in the middle is making, and the guy in the middle has more wealth in socialist countries.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
I see you didn't link any graph in median wealth, just some more bankrupt socialist garbage.



I provided the following evidence of median wealth:

U.S. Median Wealth Only 27th in World

Country                        Median Wealth
                                    Per Adult

1. Australia                  $193,653
2. Luxembourg            $153,967
3. Japan                      $141,410
4. Italy                          $123,710
5. Belgium                  $119,937
6. United Kingdom      $115,245
7. Iceland                    $ 95,685
8. Singapore              $ 95,542 (non-OECD)
9. Switzerland            $ 87,137
10. Denmark              $ 87,121
11. Austria                  $ 81,649
12. Canada                $ 81,610
13. France                  $ 81,274
14. Norway                $ 79,376
15. Finland                  $ 73,487
16. New Zealand        $ 63,000
17. Netherlands          $ 61,880
18. Ireland                  $ 60,953
19. Qatar                    $ 57,027 (non-OECD)
20. Spain                    $ 53,292
21. United Arab Emir.  $ 47,998 (non-OECD)
22. Taiwan                  $ 45,451 (non-OECD)
23. Germany              $ 42,222
24. Sweden                $ 41,367
25. Cyprus                  $ 40,535 (non-OECD)
26. Kuwait                  $ 40,346 (non-OECD)
27. United States        $ 38,786

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"The mean, sometimes called the arithmetic mean, of this set is 33. The mean is the sum of all the numbers in the set (167) divided by the amount of numbers in the set (5).
The median is the middle point of a number set, in which half the numbers are above the median and half are below. In our set above, the median is 30. But what if your number set has an even number of, er, numbers: 11
• 23
• 30
• 47
• 52
• 56

To calculate the median here, add the two middle numbers (30 + 47) and divide by 2. The median for our new list is 38.5. "



Do you have a point, or did you just feel like teaching 2nd grade math?

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
That's why I noted that taxes are double for everyone in Norway, rich or poor. I wasn't talking about wealth vs taxes, but if you want to we can.



Your OP implied people have more wealth in the US than they do in socialist countries.  The reality is that only the top of the top have more wealth in the US.  The middle are a lot worse off.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22381430 - 10/14/15 11:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Double the taxes? Well why WOULD'NT everyone go for that???



I'd be ok with double the taxes if it left me with more wealth afterwards, because I wouldn't be wasting my money on healthcare, college, etc.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22384019 - 10/15/15 03:45 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Double the taxes? Well why WOULD'NT everyone go for that???



I'd be ok with double the taxes if it left me with more wealth afterwards, because I wouldn't be wasting my money on healthcare, college, etc.





But this graph shows that you're wrong: the US would have less wealth if it was "like Norway"
Figure 4: Financial Net Wealth of Households


--------------------


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22384059 - 10/15/15 03:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I already explained why your graph is deceptive.  Because "the 400 wealthiest Americans own 62% of the wealth, meaning the average wealth per household for the other 320 million people is less than half of what your graph shows."


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22384085 - 10/15/15 03:56 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Double the taxes? Well why WOULD'NT everyone go for that???



I'd be ok with double the taxes if it left me with more wealth afterwards, because I wouldn't be wasting my money on healthcare, college, etc.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I already explained why your graph is deceptive.  Because "the 400 wealthiest Americans own 62% of the wealth, meaning the average wealth per household for the other 320 million people is less than half of what your graph shows."




Per the graph: Norway has about a 10 score while USA has a 180 score. As I mentioned before, Norway has billionaires that own a large percentage of Norway's wealth.

Somehow, in a liberal's mind, an 18x lead in Wealth can all be attributed to "a few wealthy, about 400" Hilarious


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22384214 - 10/15/15 04:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Double the taxes? Well why WOULD'NT everyone go for that???



I'd be ok with double the taxes if it left me with more wealth afterwards, because I wouldn't be wasting my money on healthcare, college, etc.



Quote:

paperbackwriter said:





Maybe if the government would stop giving money to large corporations (IE. Bailouts), it would solve your problem.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22384237 - 10/15/15 04:25 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I already explained why your graph is deceptive.  Because "the 400 wealthiest Americans own 62% of the wealth, meaning the average wealth per household for the other 320 million people is less than half of what your graph shows."



Per the graph: Norway has about a 10 score while USA has a 180 score. As I mentioned before, Norway has billionaires that own a large percentage of Norway's wealth.



I understand your explanation.  Do other country's billionaires own 62% of their country's wealth?  Unless they do, your data is crap.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Somehow, in a liberal's mind, an 18x lead in Wealth can all be attributed to "a few wealthy, about 400" Hilarious



That "few wealthy, about 400" people own 62$ of this country's wealth.  If you believe 62% is only significant in "a liberal's mind", I'm beginning to think you may be right.  Only a conservatives would argue that 62% isn't a significant number.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22384239 - 10/15/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

My internet has been spotty.  Sorry for the partial post.  I tried to delete it but anyway the point I was about to make with that graph and a few others is that income inequality is much lower in Norway.  10% fewer people live below $10k a year.  10% more people make between $100k and $1 million a year.

Even those living in poverty in Norway have a higher standard of living than those that live here.

And yeah, wealth distribution here is all fucked up.  I figured that went without saying.  Arguing over wealth in this country when 99% of us don't get to see just proves Bernie's position.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22384246 - 10/15/15 04:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I already explained why your graph is deceptive.  Because "the 400 wealthiest Americans own 62% of the wealth, meaning the average wealth per household for the other 320 million people is less than half of what your graph shows."



Per the graph: Norway has about a 10 score while USA has a 180 score. As I mentioned before, Norway has billionaires that own a large percentage of Norway's wealth.



I understand your explanation.  Do other country's billionaires own 62% of their country's wealth?  Unless they do, your data is crap.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Somehow, in a liberal's mind, an 18x lead in Wealth can all be attributed to "a few wealthy, about 400" Hilarious



That "few wealthy, about 400" people own 62$ of this country's wealth.  If you believe 62% is only significant in "a liberal's mind", I'm beginning to think you may be right.  Only a conservatives would argue that 62% isn't a significant number.





Where are you getting your numbers? From Obowma? LOL


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22384261 - 10/15/15 04:31 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Where are you getting your numbers? From Obowma? LOL



Google found thousands of sites that confirm my statement.  Do you have any that show it's incorrect?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22384311 - 10/15/15 04:41 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Where are you getting your numbers? From Obowma? LOL



Google found thousands of sites that confirm my statement.  Do you have any that show it's incorrect?




Wherever you are in the world, including Socialist Paradise Norway, wealth is not equal. Notice how I posted a graph instead of a google search? So what was your point again?
"wealth is extraordinarily uneven all over the world, not just in America."
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/yes-us-wealth-inequality-is-terrible-by-global-standards/273908/


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22384374 - 10/15/15 04:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Wherever you are in the world, including Socialist Paradise Norway, wealth is not equal.



I never claimed that it was equal, nor that it should be equal.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Notice how I posted a graph instead of a google search? So what was your point again?



My point (for the 3rd time) is that your graph is meaningless unless the wealthy in each country own the same share of a country's wealth.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"wealth is extraordinarily uneven all over the world, not just in America."
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/yes-us-wealth-inequality-is-terrible-by-global-standards/273908/




I know.  Your data is about 15 years old.  Here's more current data on the top 10%, showing the US has now surpassed Denmark and Switzerland in income inequality.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22384393 - 10/15/15 04:56 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Wherever you are in the world, including Socialist Paradise Norway, wealth is not equal.



I never claimed that it was equal, nor that it should be equal.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Notice how I posted a graph instead of a google search? So what was your point again?



My point (for the 3rd time) is that your graph is meaningless unless the wealthy in each country own the same share of a country's wealth.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"wealth is extraordinarily uneven all over the world, not just in America."
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/yes-us-wealth-inequality-is-terrible-by-global-standards/273908/




I know.  Your data is about 15 years old.  Here's more current data on the top 10%, showing the US has now surpassed Denmark and Switzerland in income inequality.





LOL so your point is that we have a lot of rich people. Maybe if our government would stop giving taxpayer money to corporations (Like Bailouts) that would solve your problem-Oh wait you want more government bailouts/intervention.

LOL Good reason to turn the USA into another socialist piece of shit country


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22384414 - 10/15/15 04:59 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

"ugh"


this is what i say out loud everytime i see you obfuscate or change the subject when youre proven wrong


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22384426 - 10/15/15 05:00 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
LOL so your point is that we have a lot of rich people.



No, my point (for the fourth time) is that your graph is meaningless.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Maybe if our government would stop giving taxpayer money to corporations that would solve your problem



On this we might agree.

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
LOL Good reason to turn the USA into another socialist piece of shit country



This post has shown that average people in socialist countries are doing better, whether you call them "piece of shit" countries or not.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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