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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
#22586888 - 11/28/15 03:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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The National Review, like almost every conservative source I've read, clearly doesn't understand basic mathematics. If the dollar lost 10% in value from 2008 to 2015, then the Government actually MADE that difference in money, they didn't lose it. The National Review has it backwards.
Put another way, if I borrow $1000 when the dollar is worth more, and pay back that $1000 when the dollar is worth less, then I've come out ahead.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22586899 - 11/28/15 03:20 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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so the small time investors, like myself and many others that I personally know, people with 401k's, IRA's, mutual funds; that lost everything we invested in GM, that was a GAIN?
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



Registered: 09/18/15
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22586926 - 11/28/15 03:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The National Review, like almost every conservative source I've read, clearly doesn't understand basic mathematics. If the dollar lost 10% in value from 2008 to 2015, then the Government actually MADE that difference in money, they didn't lose it. The National Review has it backwards.
Put another way, if I borrow $1000 when the dollar is worth more, and pay back that $1000 when the dollar is worth less, then I've come out ahead.
I'm really starting to think that you can't read: MOST ANY OTHER investment would have benefited the taxpayer more than the bailout.
That's the point that you missed again and again, poor guy.
"Now, while a profit of $15 billion sounds enormous, it only amounts to a nominal annualized return of 0.6 percent. Even Treasury Bills (maturing after three years or longer) would have been a better investment, so this is hardly impressive While this is a miniscule return on investment,"
"So if you borrow $1000 from the TAXPAYER, derp" how is that benefiting the taxpayer?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22587040 - 11/28/15 03:56 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: so the small time investors, like myself and many others that I personally know, people with 401k's, IRA's, mutual funds; that lost everything we invested in GM, that was a GAIN?
The market as a whole gained over 250% since the bailout. Anyone who invested in the market made out very well.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
#22587063 - 11/28/15 04:00 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
burgerbrain said: I'm really starting to think that you can't read: MOST ANY OTHER investment would have benefited the taxpayer more than the bailout.
The Government doesn't invest money! 
Quote:
burgerbrain said: "Now, while a profit of $15 billion sounds enormous, it only amounts to a nominal annualized return of 0.6 percent. Even Treasury Bills (maturing after three years or longer) would have been a better investment, so this is hardly impressive While this is a miniscule return on investment,"
"So if you borrow $1000 from the TAXPAYER, derp" how is that benefiting the taxpayer?
Government doesn't borrow money from the taxpayer! 
The taxpayers pay BACK the loans, but they only had to pay back ~90 cents on the dollar because of inflation.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22587151 - 11/28/15 04:24 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
burgerbrain said: I'm really starting to think that you can't read: MOST ANY OTHER investment would have benefited the taxpayer more than the bailout.
The Government doesn't invest money! 
Quote:
burgerbrain said: "Now, while a profit of $15 billion sounds enormous, it only amounts to a nominal annualized return of 0.6 percent. Even Treasury Bills (maturing after three years or longer) would have been a better investment, so this is hardly impressive While this is a miniscule return on investment,"
"So if you borrow $1000 from the TAXPAYER, derp" how is that benefiting the taxpayer?
Government doesn't borrow money from the taxpayer! 
The taxpayers pay BACK the loans, but they only had to pay back ~90 cents on the dollar because of inflation.
LOL the gov doesn't invest money? ROFLMAO, please go back to school or get some common sense or something.
These announcements come on the heels of the recent bankruptcy of the government-subsidized electric vehicle technology company ECOtality, which received $115 million in federal stimulus grants. Of course, that followed the multimillion dollar failures of solar energy companies Solyndra ($529 million) and Abound Solar ($70 million). With last week’s bankruptcy filing by government-backed hybrid car manufacturer Fisker Automotive, a failure which will cost taxpayers $139 million, the question must be asked: Why is the federal government funneling good taxpayer money to bad companies and failing technologies? http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/12/05/energy-subsidies-are-going-to-junk-investments-and-failing-companies/
Of course the gov doesn't borrow money from the taxpayer, it steals money from the taxpayer. When the gov decides to make bad investments with taxpayer money then there's a problem.
Poor brainwashed liberals.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
#22588040 - 11/28/15 08:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
burgerbrain said: LOL the gov doesn't invest money? ROFLMAO, please go back to school or get some common sense or something.
These announcements come on the heels of the recent bankruptcy of the government-subsidized electric vehicle technology company ECOtality, which received $115 million in federal stimulus grants. Of course, that followed the multimillion dollar failures of solar energy companies Solyndra ($529 million) and Abound Solar ($70 million). With last week’s bankruptcy filing by government-backed hybrid car manufacturer Fisker Automotive, a failure which will cost taxpayers $139 million, the question must be asked: Why is the federal government funneling good taxpayer money to bad companies and failing technologies? http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/12/05/energy-subsidies-are-going-to-junk-investments-and-failing-companies/
I guess you're clueless about the difference between an investment and a grant. I'll tell you again, the Government doesn't invest money.
Quote:
burgerbrain said: Of course the gov doesn't borrow money from the taxpayer, it steals money from the taxpayer. When the gov decides to make bad investments with taxpayer money then there's a problem.
They don't borrow money by stealing it either. 
They sell bonds to whomever is interested in buying them. 
Quote:
burgerbrain said: Poor brainwashed liberals.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22588073 - 11/28/15 08:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
burgerbrain said: LOL the gov doesn't invest money? ROFLMAO, please go back to school or get some common sense or something.
These announcements come on the heels of the recent bankruptcy of the government-subsidized electric vehicle technology company ECOtality, which received $115 million in federal stimulus grants. Of course, that followed the multimillion dollar failures of solar energy companies Solyndra ($529 million) and Abound Solar ($70 million). With last week’s bankruptcy filing by government-backed hybrid car manufacturer Fisker Automotive, a failure which will cost taxpayers $139 million, the question must be asked: Why is the federal government funneling good taxpayer money to bad companies and failing technologies? http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/12/05/energy-subsidies-are-going-to-junk-investments-and-failing-companies/
I guess you're clueless about the difference between an investment and a grant. I'll tell you again, the Government doesn't invest money.
Quote:
burgerbrain said: Of course the gov doesn't borrow money from the taxpayer, it steals money from the taxpayer. When the gov decides to make bad investments with taxpayer money then there's a problem.
They don't borrow money by stealing it either. 
They sell bonds to whomever is interested in buying them. 
Quote:
burgerbrain said: Poor brainwashed liberals.

"Derp derp derp the government doesn't invest money. Derp derp derka derka"
Top 10 U.S. Government Investments in 20th Century American Competitiveness https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/report/2012/01/06/10930/top-10-u-s-government-investments-in-20th-century-american-competitiveness/
Taxes are theft. Gullible liberals are brainwashed liberals.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
#22588849 - 11/28/15 11:54 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
burgerbrain said: "Derp derp derp the government doesn't invest money. Derp derp derka derka"
Top 10 U.S. Government Investments in 20th Century American Competitiveness https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/report/2012/01/06/10930/top-10-u-s-government-investments-in-20th-century-american-competitiveness/
Those weren't investments for profit. 
They were "investments" in our country. Which is pretty much what every dollar the Government spends is.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22589449 - 11/29/15 08:30 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: so the small time investors, like myself and many others that I personally know, people with 401k's, IRA's, mutual funds; that lost everything we invested in GM, that was a GAIN?
The market as a whole gained over 250% since the bailout. Anyone who invested in the market made out very well.
we weren't discussing the market, we were discussing GM, fact is, anyone with any investments in GM lost it, the govt stole them and gave them to the unions,
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22589929 - 11/29/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
burgerbrain said: "Derp derp derp the government doesn't invest money. Derp derp derka derka"
Top 10 U.S. Government Investments in 20th Century American Competitiveness https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/report/2012/01/06/10930/top-10-u-s-government-investments-in-20th-century-american-competitiveness/
Those weren't investments for profit. 
They were "investments" in our country. Which is pretty much what every dollar the Government spends is.
I guess you're clueless about the difference between an investment and a grant. I'll tell you again, the Government doesn't invest money.
So you lied when you said investments? Or you didn't say what you meant "Investments for profit"? You're really vague on your assumptions there, Fal. It seems you're backing off of your original statement.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22590486 - 11/29/15 01:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The market as a whole gained over 250% since the bailout. Anyone who invested in the market made out very well.
we weren't discussing the market, we were discussing GM, fact is, anyone with any investments in GM lost it, the govt stole them and gave them to the unions,
First of all, we were talking about Wall St vs Main St. Saving millions of American jobs at GM while helping the unions was one of the few victories for Main St.
And if you were an investor, you made 250% on the market, even if GM was in your portfolio.
The only people that lost are people who put everything in GM (which is tremendously stupid according investing 101). But they would have lost regardless, as GM was going bankrupt. And I don't care about them anyway because 1) they were stupid if they put all their money in one stock 2) they represent about 0.01% of investors, the other 99.99% made ~250%, so this isn't worth debating.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover



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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22590491 - 11/29/15 01:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
#22590499 - 11/29/15 01:33 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
burgerbrain said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Those weren't investments for profit. 
They were "investments" in our country. Which is pretty much what every dollar the Government spends is.
I guess you're clueless about the difference between an investment and a grant. I'll tell you again, the Government doesn't invest money.
So you lied when you said investments? Or you didn't say what you meant "Investments for profit"? You're really vague on your assumptions there, Fal. It seems you're backing off of your original statement.
YOU were talking about financial return on investment. If that's not what you meant, then your entire argument falls apart.
Really, I'm wasting too much time explaining your logical fallacies. You should move back to the kindeegarten forum and let the big boys back in, who are too embarrassed to be associated with you.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
#22591279 - 11/29/15 04:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
burgerbrain said:

LMFAO! you should put that in the cartoon thread!
Quote:
And if you were an investor, you made 250% on the market, even if GM was in your portfolio.
The only people that lost are people who put everything in GM (which is tremendously stupid according investing 101). But they would have lost regardless, as GM was going bankrupt. And I don't care about them anyway because 1) they were stupid if they put all their money in one stock 2) they represent about 0.01% of investors, the other 99.99% made ~250%, so this isn't worth debating.
BS! thats my point, the govt bailed out GM and told all the investors, not just the "big guys" to go fuck ourselves, thats bullshit,
and not all bankruptcies end in complete financial losses, so a restructuring was probably in order, but everyone would have to give a little blood, including the worthless fucking unions that drove GM to bankruptcy in the first place
but your point of view is typical of liberals who are just fine with stealing from the middle class, you people and your govt are disgusting...
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22591505 - 11/29/15 05:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: And if you were an investor, you made 250% on the market, even if GM was in your portfolio.
The only people that lost are people who put everything in GM (which is tremendously stupid according investing 101). But they would have lost regardless, as GM was going bankrupt. And I don't care about them anyway because 1) they were stupid if they put all their money in one stock 2) they represent about 0.01% of investors, the other 99.99% made ~250%, so this isn't worth debating.
BS! thats my point, the govt bailed out GM and told all the investors, not just the "big guys" to go fuck ourselves, thats bullshit,
"Ourselves"? Did you have all your money invested in GM, or are you defending the tiny number of idiots who did?
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: and not all bankruptcies end in complete financial losses, so a restructuring was probably in order, but everyone would have to give a little blood, including the worthless fucking unions that drove GM to bankruptcy in the first place
You're good at repeating the conservative talking points about unions being at fault, but I'll favor Main St over Wall St any day. Wall St got enough from the bailouts, and Main St won with the GM bailout.
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hostileuniverse said: your point of view is typical of liberals who are just fine with stealing from the middle class, you people and your govt are disgusting...
PLEASE STOP THE STRAW MAN ARGUMENTS! 
Liberals don't mind when money finally gets to Main St instead of Wall St, which it did in this case. Don't pretend GM was mostly owned by Main St, or that or that the middle class had 100% of their assets in GM.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#22594272 - 11/30/15 11:33 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Liberals don't mind when money finally gets to Main St instead of Wall St, which it did in this case. Don't pretend GM was mostly owned by Main St, or that or that the middle class had 100% of their assets in GM.
Typical of liberalism, as long they didn't lose EVERYTHING, who cares ?
Quote:
you have all your money invested in GM, or are you defending the tiny number of idiots who did?
This statement proves you care nothing for the middle class, only big union labor, the middle class, regardless of how much they owned in GM, lost their money. And guess what? Myself and others, will never buy another fucking Union made car, how is that a win for them?
^^^this is why liberals support FORCED unionization, so we won't have any choice but to buy from big labor, for someone who champions the middle class, you sure are good at making policies to fuck them over
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ballsalsa
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22594323 - 11/30/15 11:46 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Unionization built the middle class. read a book.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22594581 - 11/30/15 12:47 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Liberals don't mind when money finally gets to Main St instead of Wall St, which it did in this case. Don't pretend GM was mostly owned by Main St, or that or that the middle class had 100% of their assets in GM.
Typical of liberalism, as long they didn't lose EVERYTHING, who cares ?
People who owned stocks made an average of 250%, even if GM was in their portfolio. Yes, I'm very happy with that result. Gaining 250% is not the same as "not losing everything". 
STOP THE STRAW MAN ARGUMENTS, it only shows how little you know.
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: you have all your money invested in GM, or are you defending the tiny number of idiots who did?
This statement proves you care nothing for the middle class
I don't care about the middle class because the market gained 250% on average??? I don't care about the middle class because GM survived and millions of American jobs were saved??? 
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: only big union labor, the middle class, regardless of how much they owned in GM, lost their money.
Again, the market gained 250%. Those who didn't own GM made even more. Only idiots who invested everything they had in one stock (GM) lost money. No, I don't care about that extremely small fraction of people. I care about how the other 99.9% did. I don't defend stupid.
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: And guess what? Myself and others, will never buy another fucking Union made car, how is that a win for them?
That's a huge win for the 1%. Who hates the middle class?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#22595263 - 11/30/15 03:48 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
People who owned stocks made an average of 250%, even if GM was in their portfolio. Yes, I'm very happy with that result. Gaining 250% is not the same as "not losing everything". 
They lost everything they had in GM, that's a fact
Quote:
Again, the market gained 250%. Those who didn't own GM made even more. Only idiots who invested everything they had in one stock (GM) lost money. No, I don't care about that extremely small fraction of people. I care about how the other 99.9% did. I don't defend stupid
Another big win for the 1%, those who couldn't afford to "ride it out" lost big time
And yeah, if a small investor had 100,000 in the stock market, and only 5% invested in GM, they lost that money, or do you not math?
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