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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22563322 - 11/23/15 01:06 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

:thatsaten:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22563367 - 11/23/15 01:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

qman said:
That's a very simplistic approach to a very dynamic industry, you do realize the majors are very conservative operators that are somewhat diversified from the price of oil?  Do they take big risks for exploration?  No.

They have the ability to buy up exploration and fields on the cheap when the medium or small operators go belly up.  Do you honestly think the oil and gas industry is just pure non-stop profitability? It's not.





Why would a state run oil company be obligated to operate in a manner different from major private oil companies?  You do realize that i never suggested abolishing private industry right?




Is this kinda like having the PO compete with private banks? It didn't turn out so well last time, private companies ALWAYS do it better!

We need less of govt ownership, not more




seriously, i can tell you aren't a dummy, so just think about this for a second.  PO banking was a response to the unreliability of the private banking system.  The PO didn't offer high interest rates, but the deposits were guaranteed.  Eventually, The FDIC extended a government guarantee to all deposits, including those in private banks.  This brought the reliability of the private banks up to par with the PO as far as the consumer is concerned, which provided impetus for people to leave PO banking behind for the higher interest rates offered by private banks. In other words, the success of private banking over PO banking was dependent on private banks being insured by the federal government(taxpayers)




Yeah, I get all that, but didn't govt gairanteeing loans also contribute to the financial crisis? Too big to fail and all that jazz, consistency is key, get the govt out of private industry, just my two pesos


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: qman]
    #22563394 - 11/23/15 01:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

qman said:
That's a very simplistic approach to a very dynamic industry, you do realize the majors are very conservative operators that are somewhat diversified from the price of oil?  Do they take big risks for exploration?  No.

They have the ability to buy up exploration and fields on the cheap when the medium or small operators go belly up.  Do you honestly think the oil and gas industry is just pure non-stop profitability? It's not.





Why would a state run oil company be obligated to operate in a manner different from major private oil companies?  You do realize that i never suggested abolishing private industry right?





Petrobras turned into a major shitfest this year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/09/business/international/effects-of-petrobras-scandal-leave-brazilians-lamenting-a-lost-dream.html?_r=0




from your source:
Quote:

To date, 117 indictments have been issued, five politicians have been arrested, and criminal cases have been brought against 13 companies. Petrobras officials have pegged the total of all bribes at nearly $3 billion, a figure that makes the scandal at FIFA, world soccer’s governing body, seem like the work of amateurs.




At least people are being indicted i guess. 

Quote:

Brazilians have a saying when the rich and powerful are arrested: “It always ends with a pizza party.” The words, invariably uttered with disgust and resignation, are meant to suggest that the justice system is rigged in favor of the elites. The accused are said to avoid prison and then celebrate by ordering pizza.

If any good has come from the Petrobras debacle it is the flickering sense that this time could be different. Part of the reason is the work of Judge Sérgio Moro, who is overseeing the investigation, officially known as Operação Lava Jato, or Operation Carwash. In Brazil, judges have wide latitude to define both the direction and scope of criminal inquiries, and Judge Moro’s willingness to pursue even the eminent and influential has made him a folk hero. During a recent visit to the courthouse where he presides in Curitiba, ribbons of yellow and green, the national colors, were tied around trees, quiet expressions of solidarity and support.




That would be nice if these people actually paid for their crimes the way Joe Blow has to.

Quote:

As one of the world’s largest oil companies, Petrobras spends more than $20 billion a year expanding its capacity, building new plants and servicing facilities. That means huge sums of money are spent on a variety of work, much of it subcontracted to companies that have long fought one another for the business.

But about a decade ago, according to prosecutors, these companies stopped competing and started to collaborate. They formed a cartel and decided, in advance, which of them would win a particular deal. A charade competition was orchestrated, and the anointed winner could charge vastly more than it would in a free market.

The cartel called itself “the club,” according to depositions and documents submitted to the court. It had 16 members by 2006, including blue-chip behemoths like Odebrecht and Camargo Corrêa. They often met in the offices of a São Paulo-based engineering company called UTC Engenharia, occasionally summoned via a text message from UTC’s owner, Ricardo Pessoa. (Mr. Pessoa has since become a cooperating witness and is under house arrest.)

A document obtained by prosecutors laid out what it called the “rules of the game.” The trumped-up bidding process was labeled a “sports tournament,” with an assortment of rounds and a “trophy.” There was a no-sore-loser codicil, too: “The teams that participate in a round should honor the rules that have been agreed on, even when they are not the winner.”

Club members were soon landing all major Petrobras contracts, with an assist from Petrobras insiders like Mr. Costa and Jorge Zelada, the director of the company’s international division, who was arrested in July. From 1 to 5 percent of the value of a given contract was diverted to those on the receiving end of the scheme, a group that included 50 politicians from six parties, according to prosecutors.

Money from cartel members took a circuitous route to politicians’ pockets, passing through ghost corporations whose owners made bribes look like consulting fees. They kept a small percentage for their efforts and then passed funds on to one of a handful of doleiros — the word translates, imperfectly, as money changers — who shuffled funds in the scheme.




I have to admit that this sounds suspiciously similar to how the U.S. Military Industrial Complex operates.

Quote:

The job of changing the company culture has fallen to João Elek, Petrobras’s newly appointed head of compliance. He says that for years, nobody questioned top-tier managers, even if they approved transactions that seemed odd. A more robust whistle-blower program is also being established with an outside firm.

“If someone has a suspicion that their boss isn’t capable, that’s enough for an investigation,” Mr. Elek said. “The boss has good relations with a politician, with God, with the pope — we don’t care.”




seems cool, if true

Quote:

Mr. Dallagnol and another prosecutor flew to Washington a few months ago to visit officials in the Justice Department, hoping to interest the United States in lending a hand. He says that he and his team could, if unhindered, investigate Lava Jato for years.

Still, does he expect this case to end with a pizza party? You might expect Mr. Dallagnol to scoff at the prospect, but he knows the system too well.

“It’s hard to predict,” he said. “Statistically, when you have cases against the rich and powerful, things tend to end with pizza. We have no illusions. No aspirations to be superheroes. We are only a group of guys determined to do our best.”




biggest bummer of the article.

good post, it's definitely worth thinking about


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22563446 - 11/23/15 01:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
didn't govt gairanteeing loans also contribute to the financial crisis? Too big to fail and all that jazz, consistency is key, get the govt out of private industry, just my two pesos



No.  Guarantees on deposits had zero to do with the financial crisis.  The government didn't guarantee the reckless loans banks were making.  Private companies like AIG guaranteed (insured) those loans, making billions in the process.  Then when the economy collapsed, AIG couldn't afford to cover their losses, but they were so big, that if they failed it would start a chain reaction of failures with all the companies connected to them.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22563956 - 11/23/15 03:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
didn't govt gairanteeing loans also contribute to the financial crisis? Too big to fail and all that jazz, consistency is key, get the govt out of private industry, just my two pesos



No.  Guarantees on deposits had zero to do with the financial crisis.  The government didn't guarantee the reckless loans banks were making.  Private companies like AIG guaranteed (insured) those loans, making billions in the process.  Then when the economy collapsed, AIG couldn't afford to cover their losses, but they were so big, that if they failed it would start a chain reaction of failures with all the companies connected to them.




So, the govt backed loans had nothing to do with it either?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22564026 - 11/23/15 03:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
didn't govt gairanteeing loans also contribute to the financial crisis? Too big to fail and all that jazz, consistency is key, get the govt out of private industry, just my two pesos



No.  Guarantees on deposits had zero to do with the financial crisis.  The government didn't guarantee the reckless loans banks were making.  Private companies like AIG guaranteed (insured) those loans, making billions in the process.  Then when the economy collapsed, AIG couldn't afford to cover their losses, but they were so big, that if they failed it would start a chain reaction of failures with all the companies connected to them.




So, the govt backed loans had nothing to do with it either?




Another case of private banks gaming the system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FHA_insured_loan
Quote:


The FHA does not make loans. Rather, it insures loans made by private lenders.[8] The first step in obtaining an FHA loan is to contact several lenders and/or mortgage brokers and ask them if they are FHA-Approved by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development to originate FHA loans. As each lender sets its own rates and terms, comparison shopping is important in this market.

Second, the potential lender assesses the prospective home buyer for risk. The analysis of one's debt-to-income ratio enables the buyer to know what type of home can be afforded based on monthly income and expenses and is one risk metric considered by the lender. Other factors, e.g. payment history on other debts, are considered and used to make decisions regarding eligibility and terms for a loan. FHA loans for buyers who don't meet a minimum 640 FICO score may be subject to higher mortgage rates.

FHA's mortgage insurance programs help low- and moderate-income families become homeowners by lowering some of the costs of their mortgage loans. FHA mortgage insurance also encourages lenders to make loans to otherwise credit-worthy borrowers and projects that might not be able to meet conventional underwriting requirements, protecting the lender against loan default on mortgages for properties that meet certain minimum requirements, including manufactured homes, single and multifamily properties, and some health-related facilities. The basic FHA mortgage insurance program is Mortgage Insurance for One-to-Four-Family Homes (Section 203(b)).







The problem comes when banks start issuing big loans to anyone with a pulse, a practice that FHA was not designed to support.  Hence the phrase "otherwise credit-worthy borrowers"


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22564051 - 11/23/15 03:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

"Gaming the system" otherwise known as playing the game govt created...

Amazing, you can't even admit govt could possibly be at fault for creating a system that failed, when THEY CLEARLY ARE!


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22564097 - 11/23/15 03:47 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
"Gaming the system" otherwise known as playing the game govt created...

Amazing, you can't even admit govt could possibly be at fault for creating a system that failed, when THEY CLEARLY ARE!




Cheating at a game, and playing a game are not the same thing.

That said, of course, any system will have weaknesses to exploit.  It doesn't matter how well intentioned the designers of that system are.  The Government fucks things up all the time.  On this we can certainly agree.  the disagreement is about what the fuck ups are i guess.  In any event, i don't think that the rational response to regulations that didn't function as expected is to do away with all regulation.  Thats just silly. It opens up the public to even greater levels of predation by banking interests.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22564257 - 11/23/15 04:20 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
"Gaming the system" otherwise known as playing the game govt created...

Amazing, you can't even admit govt could possibly be at fault for creating a system that failed, when THEY CLEARLY ARE!




Cheating at a game, and playing a game are not the same thing.

That said, of course, any system will have weaknesses to exploit.  It doesn't matter how well intentioned the designers of that system are.  The Government fucks things up all the time.  On this we can certainly agree.  the disagreement is about what the fuck ups are i guess.  In any event, i don't think that the rational response to regulations that didn't function as expected is to do away with all regulation.  Thats just silly. It opens up the public to even greater levels of predation by banking interests.




Actually, the regulations functioned just how they were designed, ever heard of the law of unintended consequences? Sure, they may not have wanted a financial meltdown, but the regulations put in place worked exactly how they were designed and that was the result of it.


--------------------
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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22564279 - 11/23/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
"Gaming the system" otherwise known as playing the game govt created...

Amazing, you can't even admit govt could possibly be at fault for creating a system that failed, when THEY CLEARLY ARE!




Cheating at a game, and playing a game are not the same thing.

That said, of course, any system will have weaknesses to exploit.  It doesn't matter how well intentioned the designers of that system are.  The Government fucks things up all the time.  On this we can certainly agree.  the disagreement is about what the fuck ups are i guess.  In any event, i don't think that the rational response to regulations that didn't function as expected is to do away with all regulation.  Thats just silly. It opens up the public to even greater levels of predation by banking interests.




Actually, the regulations functioned just how they were designed, ever heard of the law of unintended consequences? Sure, they may not have wanted a financial meltdown, but the regulations put in place worked exactly how they were designed and that was the result of it.




ok, lets take that as a given for the sake of argument.  That doesn't justify throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  You don't just pack it in and say "gee, i guess regulations are bad", you make better, more functional regulations.  Thats my take on it anyway.  Of course you are free to disagree, and probably will.


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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22564294 - 11/23/15 04:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Nah, not really, i just don't think the govt should be involved in banking at all. And too big to fail is BS, I have a feeling that if the big banks would have been allowed to fail, we'd still be here today. This idea that the whole worlds economy would have crashed is nonsense, there would have been a correction for sure. But we'd all still be here doing what we do

Criminal activity, is however a different story, but that's not the regulation we are talking about


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22564359 - 11/23/15 04:47 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I have a feeling that if the big banks would have been allowed to fail, we'd still be here today. This idea that the whole worlds economy would have crashed is nonsense



I'll take economic analysis over your feelings any day.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22578399 - 11/26/15 01:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I have a feeling that if the big banks would have been allowed to fail, we'd still be here today. This idea that the whole worlds economy would have crashed is nonsense



I'll take economic analysis over your feelings any day.




Heheh gullible people like Fal will always trust the gov' when it comes to spending Trillions on banks.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22578429 - 11/26/15 01:39 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I have a feeling that if the big banks would have been allowed to fail, we'd still be here today. This idea that the whole worlds economy would have crashed is nonsense



I'll take economic analysis over your feelings any day.




Heheh gullible people like Fal will always trust the gov' when it comes to spending Trillions on banks.




Ain't that the truth, when it comes to these big govt types, the govt can do no wrong:rolleyes:


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22578443 - 11/26/15 01:43 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I have a feeling that if the big banks would have been allowed to fail, we'd still be here today. This idea that the whole worlds economy would have crashed is nonsense



I'll take economic analysis over your feelings any day.




Heheh gullible people like Fal will always trust the gov' when it comes to spending Trillions on banks.




Ain't that the truth, when it comes to these big govt types, the govt can do no wrong:rolleyes:




And of course, notice that he left out the whole quote,

Quote:


Nah, not really, i just don't think the govt should be involved in banking at all. And too big to fail is BS, I have a feeling that if the big banks would have been allowed to fail, we'd still be here today. This idea that the whole worlds economy would have crashed is nonsense, there would have been a correction for sure. But we'd all still be here doing what w




ETA: calling out Fal for being a liar and bullshitter


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22580358 - 11/26/15 11:03 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Heheh gullible people like Fal will always trust the gov' when it comes to spending Trillions on banks.



Ain't that the truth, when it comes to these big govt types, the govt can do no wrong:rolleyes:



No, liberals don't believe the Government can do no wrong.  Nor did anyone say that ANYWHERE.  PLEASE STOP THE STRAW MAN ARGUMENTS!

I think you're something like 0 for 100 on what liberals believe.  You're ignorance is beyond anything I've seen before.  You need to end your fantasies about what liberals believe and only argue with what they actually tell you they believe.  :shake:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22580409 - 11/26/15 11:18 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
And of course, notice that he left out the whole quote,

Quote:


Nah, not really, i just don't think the govt should be involved in banking at all. And too big to fail is BS, I have a feeling that if the big banks would have been allowed to fail, we'd still be here today. This idea that the whole worlds economy would have crashed is nonsense, there would have been a correction for sure. But we'd all still be here doing what w




ETA: calling out Fal for being a liar and bullshitter



It wouldn't have ended the world, but leading economists say the bailouts prevented a Great Depression.  Either explain why I was wrong, or stop accusing people of lying just because you keep losing all your arguments.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22580557 - 11/27/15 12:30 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
And of course, notice that he left out the whole quote,

Quote:


Nah, not really, i just don't think the govt should be involved in banking at all. And too big to fail is BS, I have a feeling that if the big banks would have been allowed to fail, we'd still be here today. This idea that the whole worlds economy would have crashed is nonsense, there would have been a correction for sure. But we'd all still be here doing what w




ETA: calling out Fal for being a liar and bullshitter



It wouldn't have ended the world, but leading economists say the bailouts prevented a Great Depression.  Either explain why I was wrong, or stop accusing people of lying just because you keep losing all your arguments.




Only retards want to spend Trillions of dollars on nothing. I guess libs fall into this category.

Commentary: Bankruptcy, not bailout, is the right answer
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/29/miron.bailout/index.html?iref=

"Necessary" Bank Bailouts Harm the Economy, Wreck the Banks
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamny/2011/03/06/necessary-bank-bailouts-harm-the-economy-wreck-the-banks/


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22580645 - 11/27/15 01:15 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It wouldn't have ended the world, but leading economists say the bailouts prevented a Great Depression.  Either explain why I was wrong, or stop accusing people of lying just because you keep losing all your arguments.



Only retards want to spend Trillions of dollars on nothing. I guess libs fall into this category.



I guess you're wrong - AGAIN - TWICE in once sentence.

1.  Money wasn't loaned for "nothing".  As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, that money prevented a Great Depression.
2.  The $700 billion TARP loan program didn't cost the taxpayer a thing; in fact, we got a $15.3 billion profit.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (11/27/15 01:45 AM)


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Remember when Bernie said the USA should be more like Norway? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22580653 - 11/27/15 01:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It wouldn't have ended the world, but leading economists say the bailouts prevented a Great Depression.  Either explain why I was wrong, or stop accusing people of lying just because you keep losing all your arguments.



Only retards want to spend Trillions of dollars on nothing. I guess libs fall into this category.



I guess you're wrong - AGAIN - TWICE in once sentence.

1.  Money wasn't loaned for "nothing".  As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, that money prevented a Great Depression.
2.  The $700 million TARP loan program didn't cost the taxpayer a thing; in fact, we got a $15.3 billion profit.




Fuck man you can't even read your own articles you link. Pathetic that you can't read. And it was 700 BILLION, get your numbers straight or go back to school.

Overall, the auto bailout was the one big money loser for TARP. Even with the Ally sale, taxpayers lost about $9.2 billion.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/19/news/companies/government-bailouts-end/


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